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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C10: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable? (Read 25303 times)
MNb
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #30 - 04/01/06 at 21:39:53
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In answer to Uberdeker: "on with the discussion!"
Castlerock's 7...h6 8.o-o Na5 (b6 9.c4!?) looks best indeed. Still White maintains some advantage after 9.Rb1 c5 10.Ba3. The same is true for Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxd2!? 8.Qxd2 and Black's bishops don't look stronger to me than White's knights, eg f6 9.a3 (or 9.Bb5 at once) Be7 10.Bb5
This seems to indicate, that White has three ways to preserve an edge.

In answer to the initial question: yes, but 3...Nc6 is certainly not better than 3...Nf6; 3...Bb4 or even 3...dxe4.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #29 - 04/01/06 at 12:36:27
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[quote author=MNb link=1113847343/15#25 date=1143837654]Dear Uberdeker,
I must congratulate you with having such a dispute with Castlerock. He is one of the most friendly, polite and tolerant posters at this forum  :-*, more or less the opposite of me  ;). I believe it is the first time he is involved in dispute like this  :-?.
Your most sensible remark was the last one: one with the discussion!

Giaccio,A (2505) - Claverie,R (2004) [C10]
ARG-ch74 Superior Buenos Aires (10), 20.10.2000

1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Na5 8.Ng5 g6 9.Qf3 Qe7 10.h4 Nc4 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.Ne4 Bg7 13.Bg5 Qa3 14.Bf6 Bxf6 15.Nxf6+ Kf8 16.h5 g5 17.h6 c5 18.dxc5 Qxc5 19.0-0-0 Ke7 20.Ng8+ Ke8 1-0

is not really an advertisement for Black's opening choice.
I suppose 8...Be7 is an improvement, but after 9.Nxh7 g6 10.Nf6+ Black has to say goodbye to his so important black squared bishop as well. Do you think, the half open h-file compensates for the defects in Black's position? White also has 9.Qg4 and 9.Qh5.
Not for the first time I get the impression, that you, like Nimzo (see eg Spielmann-Nimzovitsj, Semmering 1926), underestimate the importance of dynamics in chess.[/quote]

Dear MNb,

  My brief "dispute" with Castlerock was resolved in a civilized, gentlemanly fashion. He made an unjustified remark about my understanding, I pointed it out to him, he apologised, and that was the end of that.
Now you come along looking to revive a sterile argument. I must frankly tell you that I am not interested.

Your assertion that I share Nimzo's underestimation of dynamics is not quite accurate either (I wish I did share something with the great man). The truth is that I often do not [u]see[/u] them, and even less when analysing blindfold. It did not occur to me that White could play 8. Ktg5 h6 ; 9. Qh5 g6 ; 10. Bxg6 fg ; 11. Qxg6+
So, does missing a tactical point mean that one doesn't understand chess? If that's the case we might as well all give up and leave the game to computers.
So Castelrock's suggestion of 7. ...h6 followed by ...Kta5/...c5/...c4/...0-0-0 looks best. I'd never looked into all this, because I had simply dismissed 3. ...Ktc6 on account of 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 and 4. e5.
My own choice is 3. ...h6, and I'll leave you all alone and go back to that thread.

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castlerock
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #28 - 04/01/06 at 02:57:53
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Finally, a non forcing line with 6.Nb1. I got this idea when studying a Nb1 under development by Anand in a Steinitz french game (I think)

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Nb1 Be7 7.Nbd2 0-0 8.c3 f6 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.exf6 exf3 11.fxe7 Qxe7 12.gxf3

  

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castlerock
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #27 - 04/01/06 at 02:05:16
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For a change lines started appearing after 6...Nxc3 Wink Thats really good!

@sevenviolets
With such a dark square dominance, I think 7...h6 is mandatory. Even here g6 may become a headache later on. 8...Na5 and 9...c5 might lead to equality. In the following game white had very comfortable game till white decided to lose a pawn with 19.d5

Balinov,I (2570) - Kovacevic,V (2480) [C10]
Solin 5th Solin (3), 1997

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 h6 8.0-0 b6 9.Nd2 Bb7 10.a4 Qd7 11.f4 g6 12.Nb3 a5 13.Qe2 Na7 14.Be3 h5 15.c4 dxc4 16.Bxc4 h4 17.h3 Nc8 18.Bb5 Bc6 19.d5 Bxb5 20.axb5 Qxd5 21.Rad1 Qb7 22.Nd4 Na7 23.Nxe6 fxe6 24.Qd3 c6 25.bxc6 Nxc6 26.Qxg6+ Qf7 27.Qe4 Rc8 28.f5 exf5 29.Rxf5 Qh7 30.Bg5 Be7 31.Bxe7 Nxe7 32.Qa4+ Rc6 33.Rdf1 Qg6 34.R5f2 Rg8 35.Qd4 Rxc2 36.g4 Rxf2 37.Rxf2 Qb1+ 38.Kh2 Qb4 39.Qd3 0-1

@MNb

I assume its a compliment and thanks for your support.

Finally, here is the Gligoric's win

Gligoric,S - Benko,P [C10]
Belgrade Belgrade (5), 1964

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Be7 8.h4 h6 9.Nh2 b6 10.Qg4 Bf8 11.Nf1 h5 12.Qg3 Ne7 13.Bg5 Qd7 14.Ne3 Bb7 15.Qf3 Nc6 16.Rh3 Be7 17.Rg3 g6 18.Bf6 Rg8 19.Kf1 0-0-0 20.Kg1 Na5 21.Qf4 Bxf6 22.Qxf6 Rh8 23.Rd1 Rdf8 24.c4 dxc4 25.Nxc4 Nc6 26.c3 Qd8 27.Qf4 Ne7 28.Ne3 Nf5 29.Bxf5 gxf5 30.d5 Qe7 31.c4 Rfg8 32.d6 cxd6 33.exd6 Qd7 34.c5 bxc5 35.Rc1 Rxg3 36.Rxc5+ Kb8 37.Qxg3 Rc8 38.Rxc8+ Bxc8 39.Nc4 Ba6 40.Na5 f6 41.Qb3+ Kc8 42.Qc2+ Kb8 43.Qd1 Bb5 44.Nb3 Qc6 45.Qxh5 Qxd6 46.Qh8+ Kc7 47.Qxf6 Qd1+ 48.Kh2 Qd6+ 49.Kh3 Bd7 50.Qc3+ Kd8 51.Nc5 Bc8 52.Nd3 f4 53.Qf6+ Kc7 54.Ne5 Qd4 55.f3 a5 56.h5 1-0



  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #26 - 03/31/06 at 21:05:31
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1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7. bxc3 Na5 8. Ng5 Be7 9. Nxh7 g6 10. Nf6+ Bxf6 11. exf6 Qxf6 12. Qg4 +/=

I tried to defend black´s position but white is simply better. Dark square´s dominance and bad bishop c8.

With closed centre, maybe black can play profylactic 7..h6 and only then continue with Na5 plan? But in general, I don´t like black´s position.

From theoretical point of view what´s wrong with
1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Bb4 7. Bd2 Nxd2!? 8. Qxd2 and black
still has an important dark-square bishop.



  
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MNb
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #25 - 03/31/06 at 20:40:54
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Dear Uberdeker,
I must congratulate you with having such a dispute with Castlerock. He is one of the most friendly, polite and tolerant posters at this forum  Kiss, more or less the opposite of me  Wink. I believe it is the first time he is involved in dispute like this  Huh.
Your most sensible remark was the last one: one with the discussion!

Giaccio,A (2505) - Claverie,R (2004) [C10]
ARG-ch74 Superior Buenos Aires (10), 20.10.2000

1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Na5 8.Ng5 g6 9.Qf3 Qe7 10.h4 Nc4 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.Ne4 Bg7 13.Bg5 Qa3 14.Bf6 Bxf6 15.Nxf6+ Kf8 16.h5 g5 17.h6 c5 18.dxc5 Qxc5 19.0-0-0 Ke7 20.Ng8+ Ke8 1-0

is not really an advertisement for Black's opening choice.
I suppose 8...Be7 is an improvement, but after 9.Nxh7 g6 10.Nf6+ Black has to say goodbye to his so important black squared bishop as well. Do you think, the half open h-file compensates for the defects in Black's position? White also has 9.Qg4 and 9.Qh5.
Not for the first time I get the impression, that you, like Nimzo (see eg Spielmann-Nimzovitsj, Semmering 1926), underestimate the importance of dynamics in chess.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #24 - 03/31/06 at 20:31:34
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I appreciate the continued interest in this variation, especially the analysis given.  I remember reading somewhere that Watson said he thought 3...Nc6 was playable so I thought there must be something to it.  I've also looked at Myers' analysis of it several years ago.  I'd contribute more but right now I don't have any good reference materials and I'm too lazy to start from scratch.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #23 - 03/31/06 at 17:18:14
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Dear Castlerock,

I can't say that I was "hurt" by what you said, but I did consider it to be a bit out of place, as you were  debating not the merits of the line in question, but my understanding of and approach to chess in general.
Anyway, apologies accepted. All this is neither here nor there. On with the discussion!

                                                            Regards,
                                                                  UD
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #22 - 03/31/06 at 17:02:09
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@uberdeker,

Apparently you are hurt and definitely that's not my intention. My unequivocal apologies.

That said, I have to clarify certain points. This is a public domain and we come here to discuss and debate. It's not argument or accusation as you interpret. I didn't subscribe to your view of things (the way you expressed) and that's what I wrote. Further more, my postings are normally limited to areas in which I have had earlier introduction, like the case in hand. I think, I have every right to have my view. Differences can be healthy and it need not get nasty.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #21 - 03/31/06 at 16:02:07
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[quote author=castlerock link=1113847343/15#20 date=1143819378]
The underlying point I wanted to make is chess is not about general principles. Just because white gets a fractured pawn structure without extracting double B. Position need not be good. Same goes for a4, Ba3 problem as well. After all, you can't but look over your shoulders in Chess. That's my point.
[/quote]

I feel a bit insulted by this. Nothing I have said justifies your claim that my understanding is based only on shallow dogma.

[quote] Play in Winaver, as far as black is concerned revolves around light squares [/quote]

This doesn't exactly look like a variation either!

I'm not asking you to take back your unjust accusation, but please do not reiterate it.

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castlerock
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #20 - 03/31/06 at 15:36:18
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1113847343/15#19 date=1143813891]

Dear Castlerock,

   I'm a bit surprised by your post. I didn't think there was room for argument on this subject as well! [/quote]

Yes, there is. I would call it a debate instead of argument, though. Benko got in to the same position with Gligoric and Stein after 7.bxc3. Look at the games and see how the light square play was a non starter and how that monster bishop of yours did prescious little. I'm quoting from memory. If you can't get hold of the games I could post them.

The underlying point I wanted to make is chess is not about general principles. Just because white gets a fractured pawn structure without extracting double B. Position need not be good. Same goes for a4, Ba3 problem as well. After all, you can't but look over your shoulders in Chess. That's my point.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #19 - 03/31/06 at 14:04:51
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[quote author=castlerock link=1113847343/15#18 date=1143806110]Play in Winaver, as far as black is concerned revolves around light squares. What is the point in losing a knight for dark square Bishop? In regular winaver black has one attacker of light square more than white and it really matters, imho.
[/quote]

Dear Castlerock,

   I'm a bit surprised by your post. I didn't think there was room for argument on this subject as well! You say Black's play in the Winaver revolves around light squares. That's all good and well, but is he supposed ignore [u]White's[/u] play?? In the lines with a4 and Ba3, for example, White's unopposed dark-squared Bishop can truly be a monster and is in fact one of his main trumps.
In the line 3. ...Ktc6 ; 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 5. e5 Kte4 ; 6.Bd3 Ktxc3 7. bc Kta5 ; 8. 0-0 c5 followed by ...c4 at some point , Black's King will find life on the Queenside much safer than in the Winaver, not having to worry about a possible Bd6 and White will have difficulty in doubling rooks on the b-file due to ...Ba3. Black can better concentrate on his own Kingside play with ...f6 or ...f5 and ...g5.

                                                               Regards,
                                                                   Hubert
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #18 - 03/31/06 at 11:55:10
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A couple of quick questions Hubert.

I have heard what you said about getting winaver structure without surrendering dark square bishop. I’m not convinced on the wisdom. Play in Winaver, as far as black is concerned revolves around light squares. What is the point in losing a knight for dark square Bishop? In regular winaver black has one attacker of light square more than white and it really matters, imho.

Believe in your eyes and personally I wouldn’t like to be behind black pieces at the end of the line.

Thirdly sterner test would be 6.Nb1! About it later. Got to go.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #17 - 03/31/06 at 10:18:28
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Dear MNb,

 After 6. Bd3, Black of course plays not 6. ...Bb4?! but 6. ...Ktxc3 ; 7. bc Kta5 followed by ...c5.
He's got a Winaver structure without having given up the all-important dark-squared Bishop.
6. Kte2, as pointed out by Castlerock is a sterner test, but apparently McDonald's final assessment is equality, so White should concentrate on 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 and maybe 4. e5.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                    Hubert
« Last Edit: 03/31/06 at 14:25:47 by Uberdecker »  
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MNb
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #16 - 03/31/06 at 01:33:43
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"3... Ktc6 4.Ktf3 Ktf6 5.e5 Kte4"
I am a simple guy. 6.Bd3 Bb4 7.Bd2 looks good enough to me. White's idea is to get a position, in which Black will miss the standard c7-c5 and suffers from his lame queen's bishop. I am anxious to learn, who benefits from this.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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