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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C10: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable? (Read 31298 times)
BadPritt
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #45 - 07/13/06 at 12:49:02
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Maybe we should have a look at the recommendation of Khalifman in Opening for white according to Anand 6. His second chapter, about 12 pages, deals with 3)..Nc6.  If we skip all the details his main line is 1)e4 e6 2)d4 d5 3)Nc3 Nc6 4)Nf3 Nf6 5)e5 Ne4 6)Ne2 f6 7)Ng3 fe5x 8)de5x and now I will give what seems to me to be the 2 most important lines: 
 
A) 8)...Bd7 9)Be3 Bc5 10)Bc5x Nc5x 11)Qd2 0-0 12)Qe3 Qe7 13)0-0-0 Be8 14)h4 Bg6 15)h5 Be4 16)Nd4 Nd4x 17)Rd4x a5 18)f3 Bf5 19)Ne2 h6 20)g4 Bh7 21)Rg1 Nd7 22)f4 with a slight advantage to white; 
 
B) 8)...Be7 9)Bb5 Bd7 10)Be3 0-0 11)Bc6x Bc6x 12)Nd4 Qd7 13)Qg4 Nc5 14)Nh5 Rf7 15) Nf4 clearly better for white.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #44 - 07/12/06 at 02:55:17
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I haven't analysed the position, but I'm sure that Black can do better than 8....Bd6 and 9....0-0.  That's just begging for White to play 10.Nb5.
  
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MNb
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #43 - 07/12/06 at 02:02:53
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A remarkable idea - after 7.exf6 Nxf6 the position is similar to the Tarrasch main line with 3...Nf6. I am not sure who benefits from the pawns on c2 and c7. Maybe still White after 8.o-o Bd6 9.Re1 o-o 10.Nb5 ?
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #42 - 07/11/06 at 23:18:31
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1113847343/15#17 date=1143800308]Dear MNb,

 After 6. Bd3, Black of course plays not 6. ...Bb4?! but 6. ...Ktxc3 ; 7. bc Kta5 followed by ...c5.
He's got a Winaver structure without having given up the all-important dark-squared Bishop.
6. Kte2, as pointed out by Castlerock is a sterner test, but apparently McDonald's final assessment is equality, so White should concentrate on 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 and maybe 4. e5.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                    Hubert[/quote]

I would suggest that perhaps both of you are mistaken and that 6...f5 might be better than either 6...Bb4 or 6...Nxc3. 
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #41 - 07/08/06 at 00:26:26
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Chesspublishing has 7 well annotated games (by Neil McDonald) that shed a lot of light on this variation.  I now think 3...Nc6 is quite playable and at the very least makes an excellent surprise weapon.  The games are:

Hector - Rozentalis, 1997
Spoelman - Stellwagen, 2003
Ibragimov - Peric, 2005
Negi - Rozentalis, 2005
Erdelyi - Werner, 2005
Hecht - Reefschlaeger, 2006
Becerra Rivero - Sarkar, 2006
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #40 - 07/01/06 at 21:41:55
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I'd just like to add this fascinating game in the line 4.e5 f6!?:



Dashko,A (2401) - Firman,N (2508) [C10]
Chigorin mem-A 10th St Petersburg (6), 31.10.2002

1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 Nc6 4.e5 f6 5.Bb5 fxe5 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Qxe5 Nf6 8.Bg5 Bg7 9.Nf3 0-0 10.Qe2 h6 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13.0-0 c5 14.dxc5 Rb8 15.Rab1 Rb4 16.Rfe1 Rf4 17.Qd3 c6 18.Ne5 Rxf2 19.Ng4 Qd4 20.Nxf2 Rxf2 21.Qxd4 Bxd4 22.Rbd1 Rf4+ 23.Kh1 Bxc5 24.Rf1 Rxf1+ 25.Rxf1 Kg7 26.Rf3 Bd4 27.Na4 e5 28.c3 e4 29.cxd4 exf3 30.gxf3 Kf6 31.Kg2 Kf5 32.Kg3 g5 33.Nc5 h5 34.a3 h4+ 35.Kf2 g4 36.Nd3 gxf3 37.Kxf3 Ba6 38.Ne5 c5 39.Nc6 cxd4 40.Nxd4+ Kg5 41.b4 Bc8 42.b5 Bg4+ 43.Ke3 Bc8 44.Nc6 a6 45.b6 Kg4 46.Kf2 Kh3 47.Kg1 Kg4 48.Kg2 Kf4 49.Kf2 Ke4 50.Na5 Kd3 51.b7 Bxb7 52.Nxb7 Kc2 53.Nc5 a5 54.a4 Kc3 55.Ke3 Kc4 56.Nd3 Kb3 57.Kd4 Kxa4 58.Kc3 Ka3 59.Nf4 d4+ ½-½

  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #39 - 07/01/06 at 21:05:45
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The move, 5...Ne4 has the blessings of Morozevich who, as was mentioned months ago, destroyed Leko in 2000 and the Siemens Giants tournament.

Probably White's best is to try for a Steinitz set-up with 4.e5 and 5.f4.  Then Black's Nc6 is relatively poorly placed because Black really needs to get a c5 push against the center if he doesn't have time to castle queenside.   

Black tried to castle queenside (4.e5 Nge7 5.Nf3!? b6?!) in the game Kochan-Ghane-Gardeh (2003) and got pummelled.  I prefer 4.e5 f6 for Black and try to make use of the Nc6 right away.  White will still enjoy a small advantage, but I don't think there's an outright refutation of 3...Nc6.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #38 - 07/01/06 at 18:56:06
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For a line such as 3...Nc6, I strongly suggest using a database of games played by strong players (my arbitrary elo cut-off is 2350) and filter it for the last fifteen years or so.  Of course, going back to Nimzovich is a good idea for a starting point, but that won't get you very far these days.   

The initial query came from a proficient player (1950 FIDE?), and so he should be able to notice the key patterns that arise from the opening by doing a thorough database search.  At least, that's how I analyse new lines of play.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #37 - 07/01/06 at 09:54:46
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@AvH: sorry  Roll Eyes  I can only recall the comment I gave in a previous post. Khalifman's book is "a repertoire for White" and he often gives one move for White and many for Black. Here: 6.Ne2 (and nothing about 6.Bd3).

It's another example of collecting many ideas from various books/analysis is a good idea for work in opening theory.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #36 - 06/29/06 at 09:58:38
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I suppose Khalifman gives the line 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Bb4 7.Bd2, or does he give 7.0-0, sacrificing a pawn? If he gives the first line, what is his recommendation after 7...Nxd2 8.Qxd2 Be7? I would like to know, because I'm thinking of playing this myself as black Smiley
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #35 - 06/03/06 at 11:50:08
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OFWATA 6 (= "Opening for White according to Anand 1.e4  book 6 " Khalifman Chess Stars Ed.) gives variations after 4.Nf3 (White continues with the universal system and doesn't enter the Rozentalis variation after 4.e5).

The main lines are 4...Bb4 and  4...Nf6.

4...dxe4 transposes to Rubinstein with Nc6

4...h6 (subject here of some threads, and update in chesspublishing) gives the idea: 5.Bd3 Nb4 6.Bb5+ ! 

  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #34 - 05/27/06 at 09:31:25
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Does anyone know which variation Khalifman (in OFWATA 6) recommends for white in this line?
  
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dom
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #33 - 04/15/06 at 10:46:04
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Thanks for the games...
Interesting because Nimzowitch played for the doubled c-pawn (I use the move order of the Nimzowich defense): 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nc3 e6 3.d4 d5 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.e5 Bxc3+ 
I suppose 4.e5! is better than 4.Nf3 because of 4.e5 Bb4 5.Qg4! (5.Ne2 f6 6.a3 Be7 7.Nf4 Nh6 8.Qh5+ Nf7 9.Bb5 oo 10.Bd3 Nh6 and Black has defense against the kingside attack) Nge7 6.a3 Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 and a positional game for White where Black has not the classical strategy against the center: c5-cxd4)
If Black plays Bb4 with no Bxc3, he will play h6 at some stage transposing to the h6-line: 4...Bb4 5.e4 Nge7 (5...Qe7 Tseitlin-Gurgenidze,URSS 1972 ; 5..b6 castling long ) 6.Bd3 (6.a3 Beach-Haik,Hastings 1978)  h6 (6...Nf5 7.oo! Chesnauskas-Borisenko,URSS 1968 and advantage to White) 7.oo oo
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #32 - 04/09/06 at 10:45:53
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According to Nimzovich (who introduced this line in master tournaments): 4.e5!

To study this line, you can see for example:
Becker-Nimzovich (Breslau, 1925): 4.Nf3
Vajda-Nimzovich (Kecskemet, 1927): 4.e5
Brinckmann-Nimzovich (Niendorf, 1927): 4.e5
Mieses-Nimzovich (Bad Kissingen, 1928): 4.exd5

www.hipermoderno.com


[quote author=Uberdeker link=1113847343/0#8 date=1143647938]Dear Glenn,

Best I think is 4. Ktf3 and 4. ...Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 Be7 ; 6. e5 
But 4. e5 is maybe also good for an advantage.
The Eingorn (or Bricard) Variation contains many of the same themes (such as ...Kte4 in response to e5), while avoiding Bg5 and keeping the option of ...c5 open.

                                              Regards,
                                                    Hubert[/quote]
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #31 - 04/02/06 at 04:19:15
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On with the discussions of course. But, I would prefer a little clarification. I do not consider, my posts carried any accusations or personality judgements. I was reacting to words as expressed. I said sorry because my words ended up over heating a person who happens to be a new entrant to the forum. That's it really.
  
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