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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C10: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable? (Read 25373 times)
castlerock
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #15 - 03/30/06 at 16:23:39
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1113847343/0#13 date=1143710281]
The whole point of 3. ...Ktc6 is to play 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. e5 Kte4. If anyone benefits from this variation, it should be Black![/quote]

That's sweeping generalisation. Let's see. McDonald feels black is alright after this position.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Ne2 f6 7.Ng3 fxe5 8.Bb5 exd4 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Nxd4 Qd5 11.Nxc6 a6 12.Ba4 Bd7 13.c4 Qxd1+ 14.Kxd1 Bc5 15.Ke2 Bxc6 16.Bxc6+ bxc6

Along the way white has a number other useful alternative. Even this line was produced by a 2800 silicon chip and some of the moves will not occur to human mind. After all this when he writes "Now,however, I think Black has equal chances, despite his shattered pawns.", I rest my case.




« Last Edit: 03/30/06 at 17:29:26 by castlerock »  

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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #14 - 03/30/06 at 12:37:43
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Hello,

With white, the classicists can always have there way. After 1. e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5.pxp pxp Fischer even managed to win, although by that stage of match, could probably of won playing anything.

Bye John S
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #13 - 03/30/06 at 09:18:01
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[quote author=MNb link=1113847343/0#12 date=1143683070]There is also 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5, which looks like += to me.[/quote]

The whole point of 3. ...Ktc6 is to play 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. e5 Kte4. If anyone benefits from this variation, it should be Black!
  
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MNb
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #12 - 03/30/06 at 01:44:30
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There is also 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5, which looks like += to me.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #11 - 03/30/06 at 00:11:38
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I did have a feeling (backed up by little else) that the two most testing moves were 4.Nf3 and 4.e5.  My interest in this is because I like to play 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 (I sometimes also play 2...e5 which has been discussed on the forum as well) 3.Nc3 from the Black side and it doesn't seem the old main-line of 3...dxe4 is reliable (although that should probably be researched more).
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #10 - 03/29/06 at 21:29:10
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I play gwan wok konnaouw!
  
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Sugartort
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #9 - 03/29/06 at 19:59:12
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But my dear hectow, 0-0, f6, h6, you can't play all three, so I'll give up on the latter...
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #8 - 03/29/06 at 15:58:58
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Dear Glenn,

Best I think is 4. Ktf3 and 4. ...Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 Be7 ; 6. e5
But 4. e5 is maybe also good for an advantage.
The Eingorn (or Bricard) Variation contains many of the same themes (such as ...Kte4 in response to e5), while avoiding Bg5 and keeping the option of ...c5 open.

                                              Regards,
                                                    Hubert
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #7 - 03/29/06 at 15:43:20
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Does anyone have an opinion on White's best 4th move?  Perhaps theory has cystallized some since this post was first started (probably not much considering it's popularity).
  
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HgMan
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #6 - 05/02/05 at 21:04:22
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Not so much counter-intuitive as downright anti-positional, according to classical theory! I can just imagine Tarrasch's look of distaste!


Indeed!  It just seems strange, since Black seems to fare reasonably well in the French to begin with.

Nevertheless, I've been experimenting with some outlandish French plans myself, exploring combinations involving a c5-thrust but then taking advanced pawns on b4 rather than d4.  It seems a shame to forego an attack on White's center, but some of these anti-classical plans do seem somewhat effective.  Poor Siegbert must be rolling over in his grave!
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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basqueknight
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #5 - 05/02/05 at 18:58:24
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Keep in mind it might jsut be a psychological move. I mean lasker said somthing to the effect "The best move is the one that makes your opponent think the hardest" for those unfamiliar with it it could kill them.
  
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Paddy
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #4 - 05/01/05 at 09:04:03
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I don't doubt that this is playable, but isn't a little counter-intuitive for Black to block in his/her c-pawn in the French?  I thought the whole point of the French was to rip apart White's central pawn structure with c5.  3 ... Nc6 calls for another plan, and Black seems to be short of space...


Not so much counter-intuitive as downright anti-positional, according to classical theory! I can just imagine Tarrasch's look of distaste!

But modern chess is finding many such lines that give quite acceptable positions (and results) - for further examples, you just have to check out John Watson's two strategy books. In this case, the position after 3...Nc6 has a remarkably distinguished pedigree, including Nimzowitsch, Petrosian, Short and Morozevich. It's also related to the Closed Winawer systems with ...b6/Qd7 (i.e. without ..c5, and without ...Ba6) as in the famous game Olafsson-Petrosian, Bled 1961, a game which has somewhat greater affinity strategically with the King's Indian rather than the French.

But for examples of how Black gets play in this line (since ...c5 is not available in the early stages) you could do worse than checkout the games of Rozentalis, Reefschlaeger, Keitlinghaus, Zivoslav Nikolic,  Hecht, Matlak and Chess Publishing's own Eric Prie, who played it a lot in the late 80s - early 90s.

PS Remember Tartakower's famous paradox:

"Dubious THEREFORE playable!"
  
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HgMan
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #3 - 04/27/05 at 06:56:25
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I don't doubt that this is playable, but isn't a little counter-intuitive for Black to block in his/her c-pawn in the French?  I thought the whole point of the French was to rip apart White's central pawn structure with c5.  3 ... Nc6 calls for another plan, and Black seems to be short of space...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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basqueknight
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #2 - 04/26/05 at 23:27:12
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Morozevich destroyed leko with this in the late 90s or early 00s. I would say its playable.
  
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Paddy
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #1 - 04/19/05 at 04:50:33
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Hi guys,

since a few weeks I am experimentating with this variation:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 , the Guimard variation. I know it is rather popular after 3.Nd2 to play 3... Nc6, is this also playable after 3.Nc3?


Of course it is playable -  John Watson even wrote an article about it in Inside Chess a few years ago. A lot of useful development of this defence was done by a German master called Helmut Reefschlaeger.  In recent years, GM Eduardas Rozentalis has often used it in (mainly in open events), and has racked up a hefty plus score with Black.

So 3...Nc6 is ugly, unorthodox ...but certainly playable!

PS You can also try to reach it via 1 e4 Nc6.
  
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