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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C10: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable? (Read 19382 times)
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #45 - 07/13/06 at 12:49:02
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Maybe we should have a look at the recommendation of Khalifman in Opening for white according to Anand 6. His second chapter, about 12 pages, deals with 3)..Nc6.  If we skip all the details his main line is 1)e4 e6 2)d4 d5 3)Nc3 Nc6 4)Nf3 Nf6 5)e5 Ne4 6)Ne2 f6 7)Ng3 fe5x 8)de5x and now I will give what seems to me to be the 2 most important lines:

A) 8)...Bd7 9)Be3 Bc5 10)Bc5x Nc5x 11)Qd2 0-0 12)Qe3 Qe7 13)0-0-0 Be8 14)h4 Bg6 15)h5 Be4 16)Nd4 Nd4x 17)Rd4x a5 18)f3 Bf5 19)Ne2 h6 20)g4 Bh7 21)Rg1 Nd7 22)f4 with a slight advantage to white;

B) 8)...Be7 9)Bb5 Bd7 10)Be3 0-0 11)Bc6x Bc6x 12)Nd4 Qd7 13)Qg4 Nc5 14)Nh5 Rf7 15) Nf4 clearly better for white.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #44 - 07/12/06 at 02:55:17
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I haven't analysed the position, but I'm sure that Black can do better than 8....Bd6 and 9....0-0.  That's just begging for White to play 10.Nb5.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #43 - 07/12/06 at 02:02:53
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A remarkable idea - after 7.exf6 Nxf6 the position is similar to the Tarrasch main line with 3...Nf6. I am not sure who benefits from the pawns on c2 and c7. Maybe still White after 8.o-o Bd6 9.Re1 o-o 10.Nb5 ?
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #42 - 07/11/06 at 23:18:31
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1113847343/15#17 date=1143800308]Dear MNb,

 After 6. Bd3, Black of course plays not 6. ...Bb4?! but 6. ...Ktxc3 ; 7. bc Kta5 followed by ...c5.
He's got a Winaver structure without having given up the all-important dark-squared Bishop.
6. Kte2, as pointed out by Castlerock is a sterner test, but apparently McDonald's final assessment is equality, so White should concentrate on 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 and maybe 4. e5.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                    Hubert[/quote]

I would suggest that perhaps both of you are mistaken and that 6...f5 might be better than either 6...Bb4 or 6...Nxc3.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #41 - 07/08/06 at 00:26:26
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Chesspublishing has 7 well annotated games (by Neil McDonald) that shed a lot of light on this variation.  I now think 3...Nc6 is quite playable and at the very least makes an excellent surprise weapon.  The games are:

Hector - Rozentalis, 1997
Spoelman - Stellwagen, 2003
Ibragimov - Peric, 2005
Negi - Rozentalis, 2005
Erdelyi - Werner, 2005
Hecht - Reefschlaeger, 2006
Becerra Rivero - Sarkar, 2006
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #40 - 07/01/06 at 21:41:55
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I'd just like to add this fascinating game in the line 4.e5 f6!?:



Dashko,A (2401) - Firman,N (2508) [C10]
Chigorin mem-A 10th St Petersburg (6), 31.10.2002

1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 Nc6 4.e5 f6 5.Bb5 fxe5 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Qxe5 Nf6 8.Bg5 Bg7 9.Nf3 0-0 10.Qe2 h6 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13.0-0 c5 14.dxc5 Rb8 15.Rab1 Rb4 16.Rfe1 Rf4 17.Qd3 c6 18.Ne5 Rxf2 19.Ng4 Qd4 20.Nxf2 Rxf2 21.Qxd4 Bxd4 22.Rbd1 Rf4+ 23.Kh1 Bxc5 24.Rf1 Rxf1+ 25.Rxf1 Kg7 26.Rf3 Bd4 27.Na4 e5 28.c3 e4 29.cxd4 exf3 30.gxf3 Kf6 31.Kg2 Kf5 32.Kg3 g5 33.Nc5 h5 34.a3 h4+ 35.Kf2 g4 36.Nd3 gxf3 37.Kxf3 Ba6 38.Ne5 c5 39.Nc6 cxd4 40.Nxd4+ Kg5 41.b4 Bc8 42.b5 Bg4+ 43.Ke3 Bc8 44.Nc6 a6 45.b6 Kg4 46.Kf2 Kh3 47.Kg1 Kg4 48.Kg2 Kf4 49.Kf2 Ke4 50.Na5 Kd3 51.b7 Bxb7 52.Nxb7 Kc2 53.Nc5 a5 54.a4 Kc3 55.Ke3 Kc4 56.Nd3 Kb3 57.Kd4 Kxa4 58.Kc3 Ka3 59.Nf4 d4+ ½-½

  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #39 - 07/01/06 at 21:05:45
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The move, 5...Ne4 has the blessings of Morozevich who, as was mentioned months ago, destroyed Leko in 2000 and the Siemens Giants tournament.

Probably White's best is to try for a Steinitz set-up with 4.e5 and 5.f4.  Then Black's Nc6 is relatively poorly placed because Black really needs to get a c5 push against the center if he doesn't have time to castle queenside. 

Black tried to castle queenside (4.e5 Nge7 5.Nf3!? b6?!) in the game Kochan-Ghane-Gardeh (2003) and got pummelled.  I prefer 4.e5 f6 for Black and try to make use of the Nc6 right away.  White will still enjoy a small advantage, but I don't think there's an outright refutation of 3...Nc6.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #38 - 07/01/06 at 18:56:06
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For a line such as 3...Nc6, I strongly suggest using a database of games played by strong players (my arbitrary elo cut-off is 2350) and filter it for the last fifteen years or so.  Of course, going back to Nimzovich is a good idea for a starting point, but that won't get you very far these days. 

The initial query came from a proficient player (1950 FIDE?), and so he should be able to notice the key patterns that arise from the opening by doing a thorough database search.  At least, that's how I analyse new lines of play.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #37 - 07/01/06 at 09:54:46
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@AvH: sorry  Roll Eyes  I can only recall the comment I gave in a previous post. Khalifman's book is "a repertoire for White" and he often gives one move for White and many for Black. Here: 6.Ne2 (and nothing about 6.Bd3).

It's another example of collecting many ideas from various books/analysis is a good idea for work in opening theory.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #36 - 06/29/06 at 09:58:38
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I suppose Khalifman gives the line 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Bb4 7.Bd2, or does he give 7.0-0, sacrificing a pawn? If he gives the first line, what is his recommendation after 7...Nxd2 8.Qxd2 Be7? I would like to know, because I'm thinking of playing this myself as black Smiley
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #35 - 06/03/06 at 11:50:08
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OFWATA 6 (= "Opening for White according to Anand 1.e4  book 6 " Khalifman Chess Stars Ed.) gives variations after 4.Nf3 (White continues with the universal system and doesn't enter the Rozentalis variation after 4.e5).

The main lines are 4...Bb4 and  4...Nf6.

4...dxe4 transposes to Rubinstein with Nc6

4...h6 (subject here of some threads, and update in chesspublishing) gives the idea: 5.Bd3 Nb4 6.Bb5+ !

  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #34 - 05/27/06 at 09:31:25
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Does anyone know which variation Khalifman (in OFWATA 6) recommends for white in this line?
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #33 - 04/15/06 at 10:46:04
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Thanks for the games...
Interesting because Nimzowitch played for the doubled c-pawn (I use the move order of the Nimzowich defense): 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nc3 e6 3.d4 d5 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.e5 Bxc3+
I suppose 4.e5! is better than 4.Nf3 because of 4.e5 Bb4 5.Qg4! (5.Ne2 f6 6.a3 Be7 7.Nf4 Nh6 8.Qh5+ Nf7 9.Bb5 oo 10.Bd3 Nh6 and Black has defense against the kingside attack) Nge7 6.a3 Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 and a positional game for White where Black has not the classical strategy against the center: c5-cxd4)
If Black plays Bb4 with no Bxc3, he will play h6 at some stage transposing to the h6-line: 4...Bb4 5.e4 Nge7 (5...Qe7 Tseitlin-Gurgenidze,URSS 1972 ; 5..b6 castling long ) 6.Bd3 (6.a3 Beach-Haik,Hastings 1978)  h6 (6...Nf5 7.oo! Chesnauskas-Borisenko,URSS 1968 and advantage to White) 7.oo oo
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #32 - 04/09/06 at 10:45:53
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According to Nimzovich (who introduced this line in master tournaments): 4.e5!

To study this line, you can see for example:
Becker-Nimzovich (Breslau, 1925): 4.Nf3
Vajda-Nimzovich (Kecskemet, 1927): 4.e5
Brinckmann-Nimzovich (Niendorf, 1927): 4.e5
Mieses-Nimzovich (Bad Kissingen, 1928): 4.exd5

www.hipermoderno.com


[quote author=Uberdeker link=1113847343/0#8 date=1143647938]Dear Glenn,

Best I think is 4. Ktf3 and 4. ...Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 Be7 ; 6. e5
But 4. e5 is maybe also good for an advantage.
The Eingorn (or Bricard) Variation contains many of the same themes (such as ...Kte4 in response to e5), while avoiding Bg5 and keeping the option of ...c5 open.

                                              Regards,
                                                    Hubert[/quote]
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #31 - 04/02/06 at 04:19:15
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On with the discussions of course. But, I would prefer a little clarification. I do not consider, my posts carried any accusations or personality judgements. I was reacting to words as expressed. I said sorry because my words ended up over heating a person who happens to be a new entrant to the forum. That's it really.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #30 - 04/01/06 at 21:39:53
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In answer to Uberdeker: "on with the discussion!"
Castlerock's 7...h6 8.o-o Na5 (b6 9.c4!?) looks best indeed. Still White maintains some advantage after 9.Rb1 c5 10.Ba3. The same is true for Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxd2!? 8.Qxd2 and Black's bishops don't look stronger to me than White's knights, eg f6 9.a3 (or 9.Bb5 at once) Be7 10.Bb5
This seems to indicate, that White has three ways to preserve an edge.

In answer to the initial question: yes, but 3...Nc6 is certainly not better than 3...Nf6; 3...Bb4 or even 3...dxe4.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #29 - 04/01/06 at 12:36:27
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[quote author=MNb link=1113847343/15#25 date=1143837654]Dear Uberdeker,
I must congratulate you with having such a dispute with Castlerock. He is one of the most friendly, polite and tolerant posters at this forum  :-*, more or less the opposite of me  ;). I believe it is the first time he is involved in dispute like this  :-?.
Your most sensible remark was the last one: one with the discussion!

Giaccio,A (2505) - Claverie,R (2004) [C10]
ARG-ch74 Superior Buenos Aires (10), 20.10.2000

1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Na5 8.Ng5 g6 9.Qf3 Qe7 10.h4 Nc4 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.Ne4 Bg7 13.Bg5 Qa3 14.Bf6 Bxf6 15.Nxf6+ Kf8 16.h5 g5 17.h6 c5 18.dxc5 Qxc5 19.0-0-0 Ke7 20.Ng8+ Ke8 1-0

is not really an advertisement for Black's opening choice.
I suppose 8...Be7 is an improvement, but after 9.Nxh7 g6 10.Nf6+ Black has to say goodbye to his so important black squared bishop as well. Do you think, the half open h-file compensates for the defects in Black's position? White also has 9.Qg4 and 9.Qh5.
Not for the first time I get the impression, that you, like Nimzo (see eg Spielmann-Nimzovitsj, Semmering 1926), underestimate the importance of dynamics in chess.[/quote]

Dear MNb,

  My brief "dispute" with Castlerock was resolved in a civilized, gentlemanly fashion. He made an unjustified remark about my understanding, I pointed it out to him, he apologised, and that was the end of that.
Now you come along looking to revive a sterile argument. I must frankly tell you that I am not interested.

Your assertion that I share Nimzo's underestimation of dynamics is not quite accurate either (I wish I did share something with the great man). The truth is that I often do not [u]see[/u] them, and even less when analysing blindfold. It did not occur to me that White could play 8. Ktg5 h6 ; 9. Qh5 g6 ; 10. Bxg6 fg ; 11. Qxg6+
So, does missing a tactical point mean that one doesn't understand chess? If that's the case we might as well all give up and leave the game to computers.
So Castelrock's suggestion of 7. ...h6 followed by ...Kta5/...c5/...c4/...0-0-0 looks best. I'd never looked into all this, because I had simply dismissed 3. ...Ktc6 on account of 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 and 4. e5.
My own choice is 3. ...h6, and I'll leave you all alone and go back to that thread.

                                                                                      Regards,
                                                                                             UD
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #28 - 04/01/06 at 02:57:53
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Finally, a non forcing line with 6.Nb1. I got this idea when studying a Nb1 under development by Anand in a Steinitz french game (I think)

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Nb1 Be7 7.Nbd2 0-0 8.c3 f6 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.exf6 exf3 11.fxe7 Qxe7 12.gxf3

  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #27 - 04/01/06 at 02:05:16
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For a change lines started appearing after 6...Nxc3 Wink Thats really good!

@sevenviolets
With such a dark square dominance, I think 7...h6 is mandatory. Even here g6 may become a headache later on. 8...Na5 and 9...c5 might lead to equality. In the following game white had very comfortable game till white decided to lose a pawn with 19.d5

Balinov,I (2570) - Kovacevic,V (2480) [C10]
Solin 5th Solin (3), 1997

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 h6 8.0-0 b6 9.Nd2 Bb7 10.a4 Qd7 11.f4 g6 12.Nb3 a5 13.Qe2 Na7 14.Be3 h5 15.c4 dxc4 16.Bxc4 h4 17.h3 Nc8 18.Bb5 Bc6 19.d5 Bxb5 20.axb5 Qxd5 21.Rad1 Qb7 22.Nd4 Na7 23.Nxe6 fxe6 24.Qd3 c6 25.bxc6 Nxc6 26.Qxg6+ Qf7 27.Qe4 Rc8 28.f5 exf5 29.Rxf5 Qh7 30.Bg5 Be7 31.Bxe7 Nxe7 32.Qa4+ Rc6 33.Rdf1 Qg6 34.R5f2 Rg8 35.Qd4 Rxc2 36.g4 Rxf2 37.Rxf2 Qb1+ 38.Kh2 Qb4 39.Qd3 0-1

@MNb

I assume its a compliment and thanks for your support.

Finally, here is the Gligoric's win

Gligoric,S - Benko,P [C10]
Belgrade Belgrade (5), 1964

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Be7 8.h4 h6 9.Nh2 b6 10.Qg4 Bf8 11.Nf1 h5 12.Qg3 Ne7 13.Bg5 Qd7 14.Ne3 Bb7 15.Qf3 Nc6 16.Rh3 Be7 17.Rg3 g6 18.Bf6 Rg8 19.Kf1 0-0-0 20.Kg1 Na5 21.Qf4 Bxf6 22.Qxf6 Rh8 23.Rd1 Rdf8 24.c4 dxc4 25.Nxc4 Nc6 26.c3 Qd8 27.Qf4 Ne7 28.Ne3 Nf5 29.Bxf5 gxf5 30.d5 Qe7 31.c4 Rfg8 32.d6 cxd6 33.exd6 Qd7 34.c5 bxc5 35.Rc1 Rxg3 36.Rxc5+ Kb8 37.Qxg3 Rc8 38.Rxc8+ Bxc8 39.Nc4 Ba6 40.Na5 f6 41.Qb3+ Kc8 42.Qc2+ Kb8 43.Qd1 Bb5 44.Nb3 Qc6 45.Qxh5 Qxd6 46.Qh8+ Kc7 47.Qxf6 Qd1+ 48.Kh2 Qd6+ 49.Kh3 Bd7 50.Qc3+ Kd8 51.Nc5 Bc8 52.Nd3 f4 53.Qf6+ Kc7 54.Ne5 Qd4 55.f3 a5 56.h5 1-0



  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #26 - 03/31/06 at 21:05:31
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1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7. bxc3 Na5 8. Ng5 Be7 9. Nxh7 g6 10. Nf6+ Bxf6 11. exf6 Qxf6 12. Qg4 +/=

I tried to defend black´s position but white is simply better. Dark square´s dominance and bad bishop c8.

With closed centre, maybe black can play profylactic 7..h6 and only then continue with Na5 plan? But in general, I don´t like black´s position.

From theoretical point of view what´s wrong with
1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Bb4 7. Bd2 Nxd2!? 8. Qxd2 and black
still has an important dark-square bishop.



  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #25 - 03/31/06 at 20:40:54
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Dear Uberdeker,
I must congratulate you with having such a dispute with Castlerock. He is one of the most friendly, polite and tolerant posters at this forum  Kiss, more or less the opposite of me  Wink. I believe it is the first time he is involved in dispute like this  Huh.
Your most sensible remark was the last one: one with the discussion!

Giaccio,A (2505) - Claverie,R (2004) [C10]
ARG-ch74 Superior Buenos Aires (10), 20.10.2000

1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Na5 8.Ng5 g6 9.Qf3 Qe7 10.h4 Nc4 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.Ne4 Bg7 13.Bg5 Qa3 14.Bf6 Bxf6 15.Nxf6+ Kf8 16.h5 g5 17.h6 c5 18.dxc5 Qxc5 19.0-0-0 Ke7 20.Ng8+ Ke8 1-0

is not really an advertisement for Black's opening choice.
I suppose 8...Be7 is an improvement, but after 9.Nxh7 g6 10.Nf6+ Black has to say goodbye to his so important black squared bishop as well. Do you think, the half open h-file compensates for the defects in Black's position? White also has 9.Qg4 and 9.Qh5.
Not for the first time I get the impression, that you, like Nimzo (see eg Spielmann-Nimzovitsj, Semmering 1926), underestimate the importance of dynamics in chess.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #24 - 03/31/06 at 20:31:34
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I appreciate the continued interest in this variation, especially the analysis given.  I remember reading somewhere that Watson said he thought 3...Nc6 was playable so I thought there must be something to it.  I've also looked at Myers' analysis of it several years ago.  I'd contribute more but right now I don't have any good reference materials and I'm too lazy to start from scratch.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #23 - 03/31/06 at 17:18:14
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Dear Castlerock,

I can't say that I was "hurt" by what you said, but I did consider it to be a bit out of place, as you were  debating not the merits of the line in question, but my understanding of and approach to chess in general.
Anyway, apologies accepted. All this is neither here nor there. On with the discussion!

                                                            Regards,
                                                                  UD
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #22 - 03/31/06 at 17:02:09
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@uberdeker,

Apparently you are hurt and definitely that's not my intention. My unequivocal apologies.

That said, I have to clarify certain points. This is a public domain and we come here to discuss and debate. It's not argument or accusation as you interpret. I didn't subscribe to your view of things (the way you expressed) and that's what I wrote. Further more, my postings are normally limited to areas in which I have had earlier introduction, like the case in hand. I think, I have every right to have my view. Differences can be healthy and it need not get nasty.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #21 - 03/31/06 at 16:02:07
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[quote author=castlerock link=1113847343/15#20 date=1143819378]
The underlying point I wanted to make is chess is not about general principles. Just because white gets a fractured pawn structure without extracting double B. Position need not be good. Same goes for a4, Ba3 problem as well. After all, you can't but look over your shoulders in Chess. That's my point.
[/quote]

I feel a bit insulted by this. Nothing I have said justifies your claim that my understanding is based only on shallow dogma.

[quote] Play in Winaver, as far as black is concerned revolves around light squares [/quote]

This doesn't exactly look like a variation either!

I'm not asking you to take back your unjust accusation, but please do not reiterate it.

                                                                         Regards,
                                                                             UD
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #20 - 03/31/06 at 15:36:18
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1113847343/15#19 date=1143813891]

Dear Castlerock,

   I'm a bit surprised by your post. I didn't think there was room for argument on this subject as well! [/quote]

Yes, there is. I would call it a debate instead of argument, though. Benko got in to the same position with Gligoric and Stein after 7.bxc3. Look at the games and see how the light square play was a non starter and how that monster bishop of yours did prescious little. I'm quoting from memory. If you can't get hold of the games I could post them.

The underlying point I wanted to make is chess is not about general principles. Just because white gets a fractured pawn structure without extracting double B. Position need not be good. Same goes for a4, Ba3 problem as well. After all, you can't but look over your shoulders in Chess. That's my point.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #19 - 03/31/06 at 14:04:51
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[quote author=castlerock link=1113847343/15#18 date=1143806110]Play in Winaver, as far as black is concerned revolves around light squares. What is the point in losing a knight for dark square Bishop? In regular winaver black has one attacker of light square more than white and it really matters, imho.
[/quote]

Dear Castlerock,

   I'm a bit surprised by your post. I didn't think there was room for argument on this subject as well! You say Black's play in the Winaver revolves around light squares. That's all good and well, but is he supposed ignore [u]White's[/u] play?? In the lines with a4 and Ba3, for example, White's unopposed dark-squared Bishop can truly be a monster and is in fact one of his main trumps.
In the line 3. ...Ktc6 ; 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 5. e5 Kte4 ; 6.Bd3 Ktxc3 7. bc Kta5 ; 8. 0-0 c5 followed by ...c4 at some point , Black's King will find life on the Queenside much safer than in the Winaver, not having to worry about a possible Bd6 and White will have difficulty in doubling rooks on the b-file due to ...Ba3. Black can better concentrate on his own Kingside play with ...f6 or ...f5 and ...g5.

                                                               Regards,
                                                                   Hubert
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #18 - 03/31/06 at 11:55:10
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A couple of quick questions Hubert.

I have heard what you said about getting winaver structure without surrendering dark square bishop. I’m not convinced on the wisdom. Play in Winaver, as far as black is concerned revolves around light squares. What is the point in losing a knight for dark square Bishop? In regular winaver black has one attacker of light square more than white and it really matters, imho.

Believe in your eyes and personally I wouldn’t like to be behind black pieces at the end of the line.

Thirdly sterner test would be 6.Nb1! About it later. Got to go.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #17 - 03/31/06 at 10:18:28
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Dear MNb,

 After 6. Bd3, Black of course plays not 6. ...Bb4?! but 6. ...Ktxc3 ; 7. bc Kta5 followed by ...c5.
He's got a Winaver structure without having given up the all-important dark-squared Bishop.
6. Kte2, as pointed out by Castlerock is a sterner test, but apparently McDonald's final assessment is equality, so White should concentrate on 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 and maybe 4. e5.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                    Hubert
« Last Edit: 03/31/06 at 14:25:47 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #16 - 03/31/06 at 01:33:43
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"3... Ktc6 4.Ktf3 Ktf6 5.e5 Kte4"
I am a simple guy. 6.Bd3 Bb4 7.Bd2 looks good enough to me. White's idea is to get a position, in which Black will miss the standard c7-c5 and suffers from his lame queen's bishop. I am anxious to learn, who benefits from this.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #15 - 03/30/06 at 16:23:39
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1113847343/0#13 date=1143710281]
The whole point of 3. ...Ktc6 is to play 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. e5 Kte4. If anyone benefits from this variation, it should be Black![/quote]

That's sweeping generalisation. Let's see. McDonald feels black is alright after this position.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Ne2 f6 7.Ng3 fxe5 8.Bb5 exd4 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Nxd4 Qd5 11.Nxc6 a6 12.Ba4 Bd7 13.c4 Qxd1+ 14.Kxd1 Bc5 15.Ke2 Bxc6 16.Bxc6+ bxc6

Along the way white has a number other useful alternative. Even this line was produced by a 2800 silicon chip and some of the moves will not occur to human mind. After all this when he writes "Now,however, I think Black has equal chances, despite his shattered pawns.", I rest my case.




« Last Edit: 03/30/06 at 17:29:26 by castlerock »  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #14 - 03/30/06 at 12:37:43
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Hello,

With white, the classicists can always have there way. After 1. e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5.pxp pxp Fischer even managed to win, although by that stage of match, could probably of won playing anything.

Bye John S
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #13 - 03/30/06 at 09:18:01
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[quote author=MNb link=1113847343/0#12 date=1143683070]There is also 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5, which looks like += to me.[/quote]

The whole point of 3. ...Ktc6 is to play 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. e5 Kte4. If anyone benefits from this variation, it should be Black!
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #12 - 03/30/06 at 01:44:30
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There is also 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5, which looks like += to me.
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #11 - 03/30/06 at 00:11:38
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I did have a feeling (backed up by little else) that the two most testing moves were 4.Nf3 and 4.e5.  My interest in this is because I like to play 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 (I sometimes also play 2...e5 which has been discussed on the forum as well) 3.Nc3 from the Black side and it doesn't seem the old main-line of 3...dxe4 is reliable (although that should probably be researched more).
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #10 - 03/29/06 at 21:29:10
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I play gwan wok konnaouw!
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #9 - 03/29/06 at 19:59:12
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But my dear hectow, 0-0, f6, h6, you can't play all three, so I'll give up on the latter...
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #8 - 03/29/06 at 15:58:58
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Dear Glenn,

Best I think is 4. Ktf3 and 4. ...Ktf6 ; 5. Bg5 Be7 ; 6. e5
But 4. e5 is maybe also good for an advantage.
The Eingorn (or Bricard) Variation contains many of the same themes (such as ...Kte4 in response to e5), while avoiding Bg5 and keeping the option of ...c5 open.

                                              Regards,
                                                    Hubert
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #7 - 03/29/06 at 15:43:20
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Does anyone have an opinion on White's best 4th move?  Perhaps theory has cystallized some since this post was first started (probably not much considering it's popularity).
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #6 - 05/02/05 at 21:04:22
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Quote:
Not so much counter-intuitive as downright anti-positional, according to classical theory! I can just imagine Tarrasch's look of distaste!


Indeed!  It just seems strange, since Black seems to fare reasonably well in the French to begin with.

Nevertheless, I've been experimenting with some outlandish French plans myself, exploring combinations involving a c5-thrust but then taking advanced pawns on b4 rather than d4.  It seems a shame to forego an attack on White's center, but some of these anti-classical plans do seem somewhat effective.  Poor Siegbert must be rolling over in his grave!
  

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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #5 - 05/02/05 at 18:58:24
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Keep in mind it might jsut be a psychological move. I mean lasker said somthing to the effect "The best move is the one that makes your opponent think the hardest" for those unfamiliar with it it could kill them.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #4 - 05/01/05 at 09:04:03
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Quote:
I don't doubt that this is playable, but isn't a little counter-intuitive for Black to block in his/her c-pawn in the French?  I thought the whole point of the French was to rip apart White's central pawn structure with c5.  3 ... Nc6 calls for another plan, and Black seems to be short of space...


Not so much counter-intuitive as downright anti-positional, according to classical theory! I can just imagine Tarrasch's look of distaste!

But modern chess is finding many such lines that give quite acceptable positions (and results) - for further examples, you just have to check out John Watson's two strategy books. In this case, the position after 3...Nc6 has a remarkably distinguished pedigree, including Nimzowitsch, Petrosian, Short and Morozevich. It's also related to the Closed Winawer systems with ...b6/Qd7 (i.e. without ..c5, and without ...Ba6) as in the famous game Olafsson-Petrosian, Bled 1961, a game which has somewhat greater affinity strategically with the King's Indian rather than the French.

But for examples of how Black gets play in this line (since ...c5 is not available in the early stages) you could do worse than checkout the games of Rozentalis, Reefschlaeger, Keitlinghaus, Zivoslav Nikolic,  Hecht, Matlak and Chess Publishing's own Eric Prie, who played it a lot in the late 80s - early 90s.

PS Remember Tartakower's famous paradox:

"Dubious THEREFORE playable!"
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #3 - 04/27/05 at 06:56:25
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I don't doubt that this is playable, but isn't a little counter-intuitive for Black to block in his/her c-pawn in the French?  I thought the whole point of the French was to rip apart White's central pawn structure with c5.  3 ... Nc6 calls for another plan, and Black seems to be short of space...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #2 - 04/26/05 at 23:27:12
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Morozevich destroyed leko with this in the late 90s or early 00s. I would say its playable.
  
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Re: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
Reply #1 - 04/19/05 at 04:50:33
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Quote:
Hi guys,

since a few weeks I am experimentating with this variation:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 , the Guimard variation. I know it is rather popular after 3.Nd2 to play 3... Nc6, is this also playable after 3.Nc3?


Of course it is playable -  John Watson even wrote an article about it in Inside Chess a few years ago. A lot of useful development of this defence was done by a German master called Helmut Reefschlaeger.  In recent years, GM Eduardas Rozentalis has often used it in (mainly in open events), and has racked up a hefty plus score with Black.

So 3...Nc6 is ugly, unorthodox ...but certainly playable!

PS You can also try to reach it via 1 e4 Nc6.
  
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C10: Is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 playable?
04/18/05 at 13:02:21
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Hi guys,

since a few weeks I am experimentating with this variation:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 , the Guimard variation. I know it is rather popular after 3.Nd2 to play 3... Nc6, is this also playable after 3.Nc3?
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 17:10:26 by dom »  
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