Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) BENONI 'declined' with e3 (Read 14687 times)
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1703
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #22 - 05/23/06 at 10:23:46
Post Tools
More analysis and opinions about e3 in the thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1065327267/0#0
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #21 - 05/23/06 at 03:23:36
Post Tools
Yes -- I probably should have made it move obvious that I was quoting form a different thread.  I mentioned this line in a Panov thread, saying that I was reaching it from an anti-benoni move order and so I wasn't interested in the earlier deviations, but alumbrado asked about them anyway.  Rather than debate deviations there, I figured that if there was a suggestion for an alternative line for Black, that it could be discussed here (although I'm quite happy with the Caro-Kann line, myself).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #20 - 05/22/06 at 20:02:54
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 05/12/06 at 01:02:59:
alumbrado wrote on 05/11/06 at 15:22:03:
I know you said you weren't interested in earlier deviations but I am interested in the Anti-Benoni move order to which the original post refers.  Roll Eyes

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.e3 Black should be in no hurry to play ...cxd4 and ...d5.  3...g6! looks best keeping the idea of ...d5 in reserve.

Presumably you are getting there from 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.e3 then?


The move order that I have in mind is: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 c5 4.e3 cxd4 5.exd4 d5 6.Nc3 Bb4

I guess you might suggest here that I play 4...g6, but now my opinion begins to become similar to that of Smyslov_Fan.


This is a Caro-Kann, Panov-Botvinnik.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #19 - 05/12/06 at 01:02:59
Post Tools
alumbrado wrote on 05/11/06 at 15:22:03:
I know you said you weren't interested in earlier deviations but I am interested in the Anti-Benoni move order to which the original post refers.  Roll Eyes

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.e3 Black should be in no hurry to play ...cxd4 and ...d5.  3...g6! looks best keeping the idea of ...d5 in reserve.

Presumably you are getting there from 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.e3 then?


The move order that I have in mind is: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 c5 4.e3 cxd4 5.exd4 d5 6.Nc3 Bb4

I guess you might suggest here that I play 4...g6, but now my opinion begins to become similar to that of Smyslov_Fan.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #18 - 05/10/06 at 01:41:11
Post Tools
Well, for me, it's not so much that the Symmetrical Tarrasch is boring as I prefer to keep the more solid pawn structure if possible*.  In addition to the Bb4 lines, I have played more simply, just with Be7 and b6, but I think the development of the bishop to b4 is, perhaps, stronger.

*I admit this sort of dogmatism is not good, especially if one is seeking a more dynamic continuation(!), but we all have our preferences.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #17 - 05/09/06 at 20:39:33
Post Tools
1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 c5  3. e3 may not be very bloodthirsty, but it's perfectly good for White.  If Black goes for the Gruenfeld setup, White plays a Tarrasch Defense with extra tempo.  There have been some recent articles in NIC Yearbook claiming that the extra tempo is not useful, but I find that difficult to believe.  If Black goes for a Tarrasch, you have the Symmetrical Tarrasch.  It's a game of chess, so if this is "boring" then chess is boring.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #16 - 05/09/06 at 05:42:58
Post Tools
I can't say that I share the enthusiasm for playing the (Symmetrical or Semi)-Tarrasch, but I'm not sure I have much useful advice, as personally, I've been going for a transposition to the P-B Caro-Kann: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.Nf3 Bb4 via transposition, which I think offers Black interesting play.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Cox
Guest


Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #15 - 11/17/05 at 12:58:56
Post Tools
Wedberg-Agrest, Linkoping 2001, is a Black model.

As to literature, I suppose more or less anything on the QGA. My own modest work does of course cover the ground excellently as well (ahem).

In truth though this will only arise from this move order if White doesn't know what he's doing, since he simply gets a slightly bad version of the QGA.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
iggystiv
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 45
Location: Portland
Joined: 03/22/03
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #14 - 11/15/05 at 20:07:39
Post Tools
John,

Iv'e seen this plan with ...a6 before ...Nc6 in these Queen's gambit positions.  One of the ideas, I believe is to play ..dxc, with ..b5 and ..Nbd7-to b6.  Can you illustrate more of the ideas in this middlegame position,  or, possibly direct me to some literature or games on the subject?

-thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Cox
Guest


Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #13 - 11/08/05 at 20:50:09
Post Tools
Oh go on then.....

Tromp 2...e6, Veresov 3...c5, Torre 3...h6 4 Bh4 Nbd7 or the main line with ..c5...b6...Bb7...Be7, Colle 3...c5 4 c3 b6 5 Bd3 Be7 6 Nbd2 Bb7 7 00 Nc6, Colle-Zukertort the same sort of stuff with d5 in, London either the same QID-type set-up or d5/e6/c5/Nf6/Nc6 (or 3..c5 for folk who have ...d5 in already), 2 Bg5 the usual ..c.6...h6..Bf5 stuff, BDG either 3..Nxe4 or 3....e5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Strptzr
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 207
Location: Gent
Joined: 11/05/05
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #12 - 11/08/05 at 16:24:20
Post Tools
John,

plug some more : what lines do you suggest against the other 'deviations' ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #11 - 11/07/05 at 01:30:04
Post Tools
Quote:
It could be that White plays e3 because he prefers more "classical" positions (such as those arising in the Semi-Tarrasch).  For example, I don't think that Paul Keres was a wimp, but I seem to recall him "declining" the Benoni with e3 versus opponents such as (Fridrik) Olafsson and Mecking. 




Yes. Contrary to popular belief. Semi-Tarrasch is no push over. IQP game resulting from Semi Tarrasch is to my personal liking from the white side. Typical Bishop Vs Knight end game arising out of it can be fascinating. Imho, Someone equipped with Flhor- Capablanca can play Semi Tarrasch confidently from the white side.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4641
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #10 - 11/06/05 at 16:14:20
Post Tools
Quote:
Well when the guy throws in e3 he is doing it mainly to bore you out and to avoid a dynamic game. Just a boring wimp.

Then the right psycological move should be to throw back d5 in his face!!


It could be that White plays e3 because he prefers more "classical" positions (such as those arising in the Semi-Tarrasch).  For example, I don't think that Paul Keres was a wimp, but I seem to recall him "declining" the Benoni with e3 versus opponents such as (Fridrik) Olafsson and Mecking. 

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Cox
Guest


Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #9 - 11/06/05 at 15:53:53
Post Tools
The idea of 4...d5 5 Nc3 a6 is that White is more or less obliged to play 6 cxd5 because either bishop moves or 6 a3 allow 6...dxc4 which is a poor version of the QGA for White. If 5...Nc6 then White can play moves to keep the tension like 6 a3 or 6 b3, which one might prefer to avoid. So one is aiming to force White to give Black the IQP, while ...a6 is a useful move in the IQP positions.

The idea of 4...a6 followed by 5...d5 is to avoid the line 4...d5 5 cxd5 exd5 6 Bb5+, which again some people prefer to avoid. Otherwise it comes to the same as 4...d5/5...a6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #8 - 11/06/05 at 04:16:11
Post Tools
I don't really understand why 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 c5 4 e3 a6 is good for Black.  I much prefer the immediate 4....d5 going into a variation of the Tarrasch (or English) that is considered to be just fine for Black.

Personally, I hate the idea of playing ...e6 and ...b6 and...g6 as Black.  There are just too many holes that  White can fill if he hasn't committed to a big center with d5 and e4.  The Tarrasch versus e3 should make any player of the Black pieces happy.
« Last Edit: 11/06/05 at 16:14:01 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #7 - 11/05/05 at 22:37:34
Post Tools
I think, you will get it more in internet blitz. Normally you would get it with move ahead options. You could get into semi tarrasch. Does 3...cxd4 has a name? Can lead to English or even KID I suppose.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Cox
Guest


Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #6 - 11/05/05 at 20:32:14
Post Tools
Shameless plug - this line (ie 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 c5 4 e3 a6 followed by d5) is dealt with in my forthcoming book Dealing with d4 Deviations.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kalle99
Full Member
***
Offline


They say I have Aspbergers
syndrome.

Posts: 144
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 11/05/05
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #5 - 11/05/05 at 16:54:32
Post Tools
Well when the guy throws in e3 he is doing it mainly to bore you out and to avoid a dynamic game. Just a boring wimp.

Then the right psycological move should be to throw back d5 in his face!!
  

"I Often see in chess forums people asking : " What is the current status of that line ?"&&&&Its a good reasonable question,but who can claim that he knows the answer ?!&&&&Semko Semkov Januari 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
elspringer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 170
Location: Gent
Joined: 03/26/04
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #4 - 04/27/05 at 06:56:21
Post Tools
Very nice, especially this more ambitious line. But then perhaps with ...a6 inserted even before ...d5. Thanks !
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10506
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #3 - 04/26/05 at 08:55:03
Post Tools
What about still a double fianchetto, with the move order reversed?
1.d4 e6 2.c4 c5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 b6 5.Nf3 Bb7 and 6...g6.
Personally though transposing to the Symmetrical Tarrasch looks most ambitious to me: 1.d4 e6 2.c4 c5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 d5 5.Nf3 a6 6.cxd5 (6.Be2 dxc4 becomes a QGA with a tempo extra for Black) exd5 and Black has won some nice games with this.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
elspringer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 170
Location: Gent
Joined: 03/26/04
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #2 - 04/26/05 at 04:15:31
Post Tools
Nice.
But I am using this move-order : 1. d4, e6 2. c4, c5 3. e3 (... Nf6)...
The (logical ?) cxd4 leads to ECO B13 (Panov Attack, Tarrasch Defense), definitely not my cup of tea.
What else is there, that is not too tedious ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: BENONI 'declined' with e3
Reply #1 - 04/26/05 at 03:39:45
Post Tools
Simply 3...g6 eg. 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 and if (say) 6.Be2 you have the option to transpose to a Grünfeld with 6...d5 (a quiet line in which black equalises without trouble) or to try 6...cxd4 first.
Or you could try 6...b6 intending a Réti type build-up with ... e6, ... Qe7, ... Rd8 etc.
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
elspringer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 170
Location: Gent
Joined: 03/26/04
BENONI 'declined' with e3
04/26/05 at 03:31:19
Post Tools
For instance 1. d4, Nf6 2. c4, c5 3. e3. Any ideas on the  b e s t  treatment ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo