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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Grivas Sicilian (Read 34695 times)
Oblonskij
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #18 - 09/13/11 at 21:19:19
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Maybe the knight being on b3 makes it less likely for white to sacrifice it for a perpetual check.
  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #17 - 09/13/11 at 21:03:23
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Pantu wrote on 09/13/11 at 20:46:03:
I'm well aware that the point of the Grivas Sicilian is to trade a tempo for the chance to force the knight to b3, I just don't believe in it.  The open sicilian is replete with lines where white retreats the d4 knight (Najdorf ...e7-e5 lines, Scheveningen after ...Bc8-d7).  The following is an example where it is unforced:

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Nc6 6 Bg5 e6 7 Qd2 Be7 8 0-0-0 0-0 9 Nb3

which has at various times been believed to be the strongest 9th move (although 9...Qb6(!) might be the best response...).  On the other hand

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Nc6 6 Bc4 Qb6 7 Nb3

results in white losing further time moving the Bc4, which perfectly justifies it IMO.

Grivas, among others, have done well with this line but I don't think forcing Nd4-b3 is worth the tempo.  It's a personal opinion, which you can disagree with, but I still feel that if you are happy as white in open sicilians then you shouldn't worry about this line too much.


I guess this is to a certain extent a matter of personal preference. In the Kan, Black often chooses to displace the knight on d4 by Bc5. However, it is not strictly necessary and in some lines, the knight might actually offer Black more tactical chances following e.g. f4, especially when Qb6 attacks both b2 and d4.

On the other hand, Judith Polgar (well, not even only her) seem to be pretty happy with the Grivas in critical situations. This suggests to me that it is a rather complex issue, and not something that can be solved just by reasoning without looking at really concrete lines.
  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #16 - 09/13/11 at 20:46:03
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I'm well aware that the point of the Grivas Sicilian is to trade a tempo for the chance to force the knight to b3, I just don't believe in it.  The open sicilian is replete with lines where white retreats the d4 knight (Najdorf ...e7-e5 lines, Scheveningen after ...Bc8-d7).  The following is an example where it is unforced:

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Nc6 6 Bg5 e6 7 Qd2 Be7 8 0-0-0 0-0 9 Nb3

which has at various times been believed to be the strongest 9th move (although 9...Qb6(!) might be the best response...).  On the other hand

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Nc6 6 Bc4 Qb6 7 Nb3

results in white losing further time moving the Bc4, which perfectly justifies it IMO.

Grivas, among others, have done well with this line but I don't think forcing Nd4-b3 is worth the tempo.  It's a personal opinion, which you can disagree with, but I still feel that if you are happy as white in open sicilians then you shouldn't worry about this line too much.
  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #15 - 09/12/11 at 22:00:41
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Pantu wrote on 09/12/11 at 21:17:08:
Well, I've reached more or less the same position as the following from a Taimanov (and been stuffed):

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Qb6 5 Nb3 Nf6 6 Nc3 e6 7 Bd3 a6 8 0-0 Be7 9 Be3 Qc7 10 f4 0-0 11 Qf3

Taimanov move order might well be:

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nc6 5 Nc3 Qc7 6 f4 a6 7 Be3 b5 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 Nb3 Nf6 10 0-0 d6 11 Qf3

Black has clearly lost a tempo with Qb6-c7, and in the Taimanov version it is very sharp although most people think black should be equal.  If the main point of the Grivas is to reach a tempo down version of the Taimanov (avoiding a lot of over lines along the way) I guess it might be viable but that line put me the off the Taimanov a little. (It also scared me away from taking it up for a while)


Except in your Taimanov move order White played Nb3 without being attacked. I think the objective of the Grivas is to force the knight on d4 to retreat to b3 so that it loses influence over the centre. In your Taimanov move order White retreats nevertheless, in place of which other moves could have been more useful, such as Rae1. I think the tempo lost on Qb6-c7 would be immaterial in compensation for the more important factor of White's decentralised d4-knight.
  

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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #14 - 09/12/11 at 21:17:08
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Well, I've reached more or less the same position as the following from a Taimanov (and been stuffed):

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Qb6 5 Nb3 Nf6 6 Nc3 e6 7 Bd3 a6 8 0-0 Be7 9 Be3 Qc7 10 f4 0-0 11 Qf3

Taimanov move order might well be:

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nc6 5 Nc3 Qc7 6 f4 a6 7 Be3 b5 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 Nb3 Nf6 10 0-0 d6 11 Qf3

Black has clearly lost a tempo with Qb6-c7, and in the Taimanov version it is very sharp although most people think black should be equal.  If the main point of the Grivas is to reach a tempo down version of the Taimanov (avoiding a lot of over lines along the way) I guess it might be viable but that line put me the off the Taimanov a little. (It also scared me away from taking it up for a while)
  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #13 - 09/12/11 at 20:52:08
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I found my old copy of Gambit's publication on the Grivas Sicilian, and these recent games in the (Chess) World Cup might lead me to read the book.
  

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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #12 - 09/12/11 at 18:18:36
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Well, neither Lenier Dominguez nor Peter Svidler seemed to have been able to discover 7.a3.

Lenier Dominguez did try 7.a3 in 2007, but was only able to draw in 12 moves.

Here's Svidler-Polgar, which at least lasted 5 moves longer. Svidler obviously was ready for 4...Qb6, but wasn't able to get a demonstrable advantage. (Grivas annotated the game at Chessbase)


  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #11 - 09/08/11 at 16:44:13
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7.a3.
  

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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #10 - 09/08/11 at 14:39:09
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Polgar has just had some tremendous success winning "must-win" games as Black using the Grivas Sicilian against Lenier-Dominguez in the World Cup. Of course, she's no stranger to the Grivas Sicilian having played it for about two decades as a surprise weapon.

Her victories will almost certainly raise its profile among club players, so how should white go about finding an advantage? (About a decade ago, I thought I knew the answer to this question. Now, I'm not sure.)
  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #9 - 03/09/07 at 07:20:51
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TopNotch wrote on 05/22/05 at 13:49:28:
What about this no name Sicilian  Grin

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 h6!? Is this mentioned anywhere?

The idea I believe is to steer the game towards and improved Lowenthal variation.

Maybe this line is not as stupid as it looks, but almost.  Wink

Thoughts?

Top  Grin


Hi Toppy,

do you like playchess computer games? Computers /or his bookmakers/ very like this move.You can contact me for DB  Wink

g3g6
  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #8 - 03/08/07 at 23:33:55
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Grivas book is good but I know a better book on the subject. Zoran Ilic book on the same subject. That book is easier to follow. He also suggest a repertoire for black.

See the link below. You can also look inside the book there

http://www.amazon.com/Sicilian-Qb6-Dynamic-Surprise-Openings/dp/0713482389

Nice book. And a nice surprise weapon as many white players dont know very much about it. They have other things to focus at for example Sveshnikov Najdorf Dragon Taimanov and more
« Last Edit: 03/09/07 at 09:28:05 by kalle99 »  

"I Often see in chess forums people asking : " What is the current status of that line ?"&&&&Its a good reasonable question,but who can claim that he knows the answer ?!&&&&Semko Semkov Januari 2008
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #7 - 05/22/05 at 13:49:28
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What about this no name Sicilian  Grin

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 h6!? Is this mentioned anywhere?

The idea I believe is to steer the game towards and improved Lowenthal variation.

Maybe this line is not as stupid as it looks, but almost.  Wink

Thoughts?

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #6 - 05/22/05 at 10:32:32
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it seems that In most games Black is able to reach a sort of Scheveningen position, without having had to worry about the Keres Attack, English Attack or the Velimirovic.



That's an impressive achievement, and well worth investigating imho. Do I remember some chess.fm Diesen lecture with this line?
  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #5 - 05/22/05 at 10:25:08
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Gambit is releasing a book on the Grivias sicilian in August. http://www.badbishop.com/gambit/books/grivas.html It's 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Db6. I didn't even know it was called the Grivas Sicilian. The book is written by Grivas himself.

What's the status of this line? (Well, reading the book is one way to find out.) Looking briefly in games from TWIC it appears to do well. I seldom see it at high level though.

Is it always an independent line? Are there common transpositions to other Sicilian lines?


I've never played this line, but I looked at it in some detail last year. There are some issues of move order early on to resolve, but it seems that In most games Black is able to reach a sort of Scheveningen position, without having had to worry about the Keres Attack, English Attack or the Velimirovic.

The main snags are that a) in some lines the Qb6 is misplaced, preventing ...b5; b) in other lines, White's Be3 wins a tempo on the identical line stemming from e.g. a  Qb6 Sozin, or maybe a Taimanov in which White plays Bd3 and Be3. Some apparently think that's a price worth paying to a) "demobilise" the strong Nd4 and b) have a good chance of reaching a familar type of Scheveningen middlegame position, thus gaining the usual Sicilian "three results" game without having to learn huge amounts of theory.

Grivas himself has played this in nearly 100 published games, with a healthy plus score for Black. It is also popular with some Armenians, such as Akopian and Anastasian. Golod and Milov also play it.

  
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Re: Grivas Sicilian
Reply #4 - 05/22/05 at 10:14:55
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I've met it once - the game continued 5.Nb3 e6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Bd3 (arguably wrong due to ...Nb4!?) a6 8.a4 (again, maybe the wrong plan) d6 9.Nc3 Be7 10.f4 Nf6 11.Qf3 b6 12.0-0 Rb8 (12...Bb7 13.Qf2!?) and we were in a fairly standard scheveningen position (although after 13.f5!? we weren't). I eventually won, but the opening just seemed to give a sicilian position that could be reached by all manner of different move-orders.

As far as I can see, it's not really any worse than any other move-order if you're aiming for a hedgehog position; it seems to cut down white's options a fair bit, as it kicks the knight from d4 and takes a lot of the bite out of the pawn-storm systems. Provided as black you don't mind white being able to play c4, it looks pretty good.

Tom
  
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