Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The lower rated guys and the open sicilian. (Read 16867 times)
basqueknight
Ex Member


Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #36 - 08/29/05 at 00:43:02
Post Tools
Always good to hear you SF and i wish i had chess base but alas i only have my fritz 8 and i try to download games as often as i can.

The best classical Inspiration for my favorite defense the Kings Indian played in that tournement such greats as:Bronstien,Geller,Gligoric,Najdorf(who played it against the pioneer Bronstien him self) and less inspiring was petrosians play with it. But the first three i mentioned are a big inspiration to my play with the kings indian.

The sicilian was seen through out it as well and Najdorf and Kotov were probley my favorite players of it there.

Bronstien never had the chance to play his variation of the caro-kann as not one person dared open e4 against him. This is quite humourous to me because his skills with the kings indian also proceeded him. Its not a doubt in my mind that the reason bronstien did so incredibly well was his preparation in this opening. And im sure the rest of the russian deligation was prepared heavily in that or the nimzo/queens indian complex. However there were also a few d5 games and e5 games that were amazing as well.

Zurich 1953 should be on every ones book shelf from begining to amature. For those of you who only read english fellow michigander Jim Marfia translated it from the second eddition of Bronstien. It is quite well translated and as a side not if you can find any of marfias games which can be downloaded with the rest of the michigan people and http://www.michess.org his style is or was extremely uncomprimising and while not a master he was fun to watch. My coach Mike Skidmores games are in there as well but you must be prepared for the strange. While not unsound his opening play is original not exactly coffee house just the older forgoten lines.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #35 - 08/28/05 at 23:36:07
Post Tools
Basqueknight;

You got me curious, and again insomnia plus ChessBase makes me do research.

There were 53 Nimzo/Queen's Indians (very few were true QIDs) and 44 KIDs.  Numbers alone don't tell the whole story though.  Mar Del Plata had recently been played and what is now considered the main line of the KID was first assayed there.  Najdorf won a classic, absolutely essential game to study against Taimanov as Black in Zurich and Bronstein's comments are as insightful and useful today as ever.   Of course there were many brilliant games in the tournament.

There were many other types of KIDs played, including the Saemisch.  The Zurich Candidates Tournament did wonders for the reputations of both openings, so I won't quibble over which was more important.  Just wanted to give some basic info.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
basqueknight
Ex Member


Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #34 - 08/28/05 at 21:25:23
Post Tools
Wow what can i say but thank you for all the positive feedback. To clear a few things up I dont think i want to become a GM or IM because i really dont like the ego thing. I like book collections and believe it or not for all those people who want me to study open games, My first game collection was larely that. It was the games of Willhelm Steinitz and my fist chess book was his manual on the game. I played the open game for a while, Then i looked at the french played it for two year with my rating not doing much i wasnt having much fun in a lot of the positions unless it was in the classical. The Burn french is awesome gxf6 forever!! So i picked up this sicilian. My rating shot through the roof almost imeadiatly and I love the wild complications, much of that may be because of my sacrificial style but i dont know it fits like my socks do perfectly.

The time i have spent going over opengame and closed and semiclosed is not in vain. I as well tell my young students to play e5. I really wish i would have but now to give up somthing you have studied is not so easy.

And one of you made the comment learning so much theory was a weak excuse for not playing e5. I dont dodge theory i play both sides of the open sicilian and a smith morra for when i am feeling evil.

Its interesting that Zurich 1953 is called the nimzo tourney as david talks mostly about how 3 out of every ten games that started d4 Nf6 were kings indian not only our players but the out siders played it as well. Oh to further support my indulgence of theory i play a Kings Indian Tongue

But thank you all for the advice and my favorite which i have told all of the guys i coach during the summer is to have fun. When i stopped playing for a unconditional win i started having better results. Win or lose if i think i played a good game i am happy with my self. I think that every one should try for this but alas some people kick themselves for this. Any way thank you all so much and god bless you your family and your future games. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
basqueknight
Ex Member


Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #33 - 08/28/05 at 21:24:16
Post Tools
Wow what can i say but thank you for all the positive feedback. To clear a few things up I dont think i want to become a GM or IM because i really dont like the ego thing. I like book collections and believe it or not for all those people who want me to study open games, My first game collection was larely that. It was the games of Willhelm Steinitz and my fist chess book was his manual on the game. I played the open game for a while, Then i looked at the french played it for two year with my rating not doing much i wasnt having much fun in a lot of the positions unless it was in the classical. The Burn french is awesome gxf6 forever!! So i picked up this sicilian. My rating shot through the roof almost imeadiatly and I love the wild complications, much of that may be because of my sacrificial style but i dont know it fits like my socks do perfectly.

The time i have spent going over opengame and closed and semiclosed is not in vain. I as well tell my young students to play e5. I really wish i would have but now to give up somthing you have studied is not so easy.

And one of you made the comment learning so much theory was a weak excuse for not playing e5. I dont dodge theory i play both sides of the open sicilian and a smith morra for when i am feeling evil.

Its interesting that Zurich 1953 is called the nimzo tourney as david talks mostly about how 3 out of every ten games that started d4 Nf6 were kings indian not only our players but the out siders played it as well. Oh to further support my indulgence of theory i play a Kings Indian Tongue

But thank you all for the advice and my favorite which i have told all of the guys i coach during the summer is to have fun. When i stopped playing for a unconditional win i started having better results. Win or lose if i think i played a good game i am happy with my self. I think that every one should try for this but alas some people kick themselves for this. Any way thank you all so much and god bless you your family and your future games. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2030
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #32 - 08/21/05 at 21:46:35
Post Tools
Ice-Cream and Cake are delicious and perfectly ok when eaten in moderation, but if abused leads to obesity and general bad health. If you want to grow up to be big and strong you have to eat your vegetables too, you may not like them, but its an important part of a healthy diet.

Translate the above metaphor to Chess and you should be fine.

Your humble servant

Toppy Grin

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #31 - 08/21/05 at 11:40:58
Post Tools
Smyslov_fan wrote some really darned good advice there. I agree completely with it, even more so on the part about having fun & enjoying the game. That to my mind should always come first & that will later serve as the catalyst or motivating factor to work & improve.

A lot of stars & world champs in the other sports are prepared to put in the gruelling hours of work for what? To win?? Yes of course! but primarily because they enjoy what they are doing win or lose!

"Play what you like and discover what you like" - Only in this will games be interesting to play . I like this quote by Bronstein "play interesting chess....play the KG". Note where my emphasis is......

Whether you make it to the top levels of chess is anyone's guess.....but I wish you all the best, basqueknight.  Wink
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1503
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #30 - 08/21/05 at 10:38:25
Post Tools
I agree with smyslov_fan. In fact, see my early post on page 1! There is no way in hell an amateur is going to improve, if the positions force-fed by a coach do not interest him at all.  Undecided

The opening is a rather "personal" part of Chess (unlike say the middlegame, or endgame, where it is more important to be universal). Remember we had a thread on "Personality and Chess Openings" awhile back? I think everyone has different tastes, and some people just feel more comfortable with certain positions than others. So a good trainer should  recommend openings closer to the student's style/personality.

In any case, many so-called closed openings can become open, and open openings can become closed anyway. In fact, my experience has been that "spoil-sport" variations are extremely common in low level tournaments (e.g. Closed Sicilian, Exchange French).  So its not as if the student will be playing one type of position all his life!   Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2324
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #29 - 08/20/05 at 23:07:23
Post Tools
Quote:
Don't be bullied into playing only open games if your rating is below "x".  That's a pretty sure way to kill your love of chess.  Okay, so some pretty darned good teachers such as Topnotch, MNb, HgMan and others are telling you you have to play open games and master those first.  Play what you like and discover what you like.  But if your goal is to become a top player, remember what those teachers have told you.


Well, I'm duly honored to be added to such an esteemed company of teachers, though I've never thought of myself as a teacher of chess (always the student).  And I agree completely with Smyslov_Fan about enjoyment being the soul of chess.  I'm sure there are important lessons to be learned by sticking to an open game, but I never did.  In fact, when I first was playing chess at all seriously, I kept getting into trouble on the school team for playing 1 c3.  I'm not a great chess player, but I can tell you I was getting a little bored of the Scotch game they wanted us to play.  I may even go back to 1 c3 after TN shows me the Bird is bad...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10472
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #28 - 08/20/05 at 22:52:14
Post Tools
"Okay, so some pretty darned good teachers such as Topnotch, MNb, HgMan and others are telling you you have to play open games and master those first."
Tuttut, I am not a pretty darned good teacher - here in Moengo I am simply the only one.  The reason, that we recommend children to play the open games first, is that is what they enjoy most. But a few months ago I have spend two lessons on the Colle-Zukertort, an opening I never would dream to play myself. The kids like it!
Frankly, I think adults on every level simply should decide for themselves and listen to nobody.

The Open Sicilian has one big disadvantage for amateurs. See the following game, which I witnessed a few weeks ago:

Joseph,M - Martis,V [B96]
Suriname Open 2005 Paramaribo (3), 03.08.2005

1.e4 c5 2.Pf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Pxd4 Pf6 5.Pc3 a6 6.Lg5 e6 7.f4 Pbd7 8.Df3 Dc7 9.0-0-0 b5 10.e5 Lb7 11.Dh3 dxe5 12.Pxe6 fxe6 13.Dxe6+ Le7 14.Lxb5 axb5 15.Pxb5 Dc6 16.Pd6+ Kd8 17.fxe5 Pd5 18.Lxe7+ Pxe7 19.Pf7+ Ke8 20.Td6 Dxg2 21.Thd1 Tf8 22.Txd7 Txf7 23.Txe7+ 1-0

Looks impressive, until you do some research and find out that 20...Qxg2 was the first new move - and instantly losing.

  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #27 - 08/20/05 at 20:13:52
Post Tools
Basqueknight and all,


My Turn!

I don't know you at all. I don't know what you look like, I've never sat down with you and chatted about sports, tv, the opposite sex or anything else.  I know a bit about what you like in chess, but that's not much.  I don't know why you play chess instead of, say, tiddly-winks.  I don't know why you like chess.  I don't know what you want to get out of chess, and I don't even know your chessic strengths and weaknesses.  I do know that you like chess, and you like to read about chess.   

I also know a great deal about how chess has often been mis-taught throughout the twentieth century.  Emmanuel Lasker and others recommended that people learn chess backwards, from the most basic endgames to the middle game.  Well that's great.... if you're a machine!  Others recommend that students don't play blitz.  Take a look at ICC.  Look at all the great, talented players who are playing 3 0 and 1 0 regardless of their age!  They play blitz because it's fun!  Remember why you are playing chess, and you will be guided to make the right decisions for yourself.

I hate to break it to you, but I rather doubt that you will become a chess professional, and you should count your lucky stars! Cheesy  There are probably fewer than fifty players in the United States who can make their living playing chess tournaments.  They do so by travelling from city to city competing for the same small prizes.

I was at one such tournament and went to the bar to order a coffee.  I watched while a group of grandmasters were drinking and chatting up the few women who were there.  Their opponents would occasionally walk in, order a drink, and start chatting with the same women.  That was how the top players knew it was their turn!  If that sounds like the life you want to lead, and you have about 30 hours a week to devote to chess, and you have the talent to make that great leap, then go for it!  But remember why you play chess.


I sometimes wish I had had a chess coach when I was growing up, and perhaps I could have made IM.  Then I look at most of the IMs I've met.  Some of them are fantastic, well-rounded people, but many of them are driving themselves to an early, uninsured grave, while others have pretty much given up competitive chess.  You will find many of these players on the internet having fun, playing blitz.  These players know why they play chess!

You've read Zurich 1953 a couple of times, cool!  Cheesy Did you know it's sometimes called the "NimzoIndian Tournament" for all the NimzoIndians that were played?  Reading through Bronstein's comments, it sounded like most of them had fun while they were playing.  Just about everyone there had at least one really cool, memorable game.  For me, that's why I play chess. 

I played in a tournament recently in which I played two particular games.  The early round game was a routine win that I almost forgot before it was over.  The only reason it became memorable was that later a couple of people came up to me to congratulate me on playing a perfect game.  They told me that I played Fritz' first choice move for something like thirty straight moves.  Now that sounds impressive until you realise that I had considered the position won for those thirty odd moves, and was just following a plan I had come up with relatively early.  I played a game in a later round in which I made numerous mistakes.  My opponent did too, but the position was fascinating, and the position was too rich to comprehend.  Boy it was fun fighting through that game.  I ended up losing that game in a time scramble but I will remember it for a very long time.  I didn't begin playing chess just to win long technical games.  I play chess for the thrill of those supremely complex battles (and hopefully winning them).

I know that you must learn how to win those technical games, but you also must have fun while you're learning.  If that means playing some open Sicilians, go for it!  But do it in your casual games.  Play as many different types of openings as you can in casual games.  Study the classics, learn the classics, but have fun playing the other stuff too. 

Don't be bullied into playing only open games if your rating is below "x".  That's a pretty sure way to kill your love of chess.  Okay, so some pretty darned good teachers such as Topnotch, MNb, HgMan and others are telling you you have to play open games and master those first.  Play what you like and discover what you like.  But if your goal is to become a top player, remember what those teachers have told you. 

Study the classics.  That doesn't mean that you have to give up the fun stuff.  You'll find plenty of fun ideas in the classic open games.  Heck, Bronstein once described Tal's style as "easy:  He develops his pieces toward the center, then sacrifices them somewhere."  Tal's games are a great way to learn some of the principles of the opening.

I've become notorious in my neck of the woods for telling people before the start of the game, "Let's have fun!"  I don't wish them good luck, because I don't want them to have good luck.  I thought about it, and decided that what I do want for myself and my opponent is to have fun.  Here's wishing you good fun in chess!  8)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mytzlplk
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 3
Location: Madison
Joined: 06/02/05
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #26 - 08/20/05 at 16:26:45
Post Tools
Most lower rated players (sub-2000) won't play the open Sicilian.  Those that do tend to play fashionable lines.  That's the main problem with playing ultra-theoretical lines like the Najdorf, Sveshnikov,  or the Dragon lots of study that goes unused.  Personally, I like a higher rate of return for my hard work.  Perhaps if you're going to play the open Sicilian as white it would be less inefficient.  Maybe something a little less theoretical would be more practical.  On the bright side the anti-Sicilians make it easier to equalize Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2030
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #25 - 08/09/05 at 20:20:57
Post Tools
Yes whitecraw you are right, that link has indeed expired. Try this LINK instead.

Tops Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2030
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #24 - 08/09/05 at 20:08:43
Post Tools
I don't think its Markovitch's website, and it was up as recently as last week.

Tops Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
whitecraw
Junior Member
**
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 74
Joined: 11/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #23 - 08/09/05 at 08:17:28
Post Tools
Hi Markovitch,

I can't access your website:

http://www.hardchess.com/columns/199901.htm

Looks like the domain name has expired.

- Jim
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2030
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: The lower rated guys and the open sicilian.
Reply #22 - 08/08/05 at 18:19:34
Post Tools
Quote:
       are you saying that beofore you were 2100 or so you didnt play anything but e5!? i used to play e5 often. Didnt like knowing the theory to 5 or more openings! think there is a lot to learn in the sicilian think about playing e5! my rating has been going up and up since i started playing it and i think i will continue. My understanding of different tactics and themes come from expert to grandmaster games. I have gone through zurich 1953 twice now and i am starting the avro tournement from i belive 38 dont have it next to me. The way to improve as told by my coach was to go over 100 games of each world champion. Im not through them all yet but my play gets better as i do so. This makes a big difference. I know its dangerous tackeling a serious line and that is part of the fun. But when your heros are Polugaevsky and Tal you are going to play for as big of an advantage as possible. the two times people have let me play Polugaevskys line im talking of the early b5 and not Nbd7 i have won. Most people wont go in for the hyper tactical battle that arises. So i just put on the squeeze.
         I understand where you are coming from but think about it. Understanding different posistions that arise is a priceless lesson. Understanding how one opening works good even if you are not going to play it but grasp the themes of the positions that arise from them. Like i played a French for 2 years. I liked it and still ocasionally play it but  after awhile i decided to try the caro-kann. Ya know what i didnt have to spend nearly as much time on this opening as i did the french. The themes were similar and so was pawn structure. Ideas i used previously still were valid.
         So now im on somthing since i have also gone over the life and games of mikhail tal a couple of times i want to strive for a win at almost any cost. This is my bedside reading book and inspiration of my play today.


If you really want to see improvement, you first have to study your own games thoroughly to determine your strengths and weaknesses and go from there. I hope your coach has already told you that.

You sound a bit too bookish to me, its not clear how beneficial studying all the games of every World Champion ultimately will be for you, except in a debate on the forum. Then again I know litlle about you.

You sound like a young player, if that is the case, I would say the most important thing for you at this stage is to play a lot, record the games and then study them later.  

Once that is done you can compare your thoughts and ideas with those of strong players and chart your progress accordingly. The best books in this regard are game collections, with the annotations done by the players themselves, preferably verbal as well as concrete analysis.

Tops Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo