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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence (Read 45449 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #21 - 06/25/05 at 08:19:48
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I had another look at the 10 …Qb6 Bird’s last night, and I’m afraid I’m not a happy bunny. 11 a3! seems to me really strong. After 11 …Nc4 (11 …Be6 12 cd Nc4 13 dc Bc4 14 b4 then Bb2 looks good for White) 12 Nc4 dc (12 …Be6 13 cd transposes to 11 …Be6) 13 Nc3 Be7 14 Bf4!? 0-0 15 Bd6 Bd6 16 Qd6 Qb2 17 Qb4 Qb4 18 ab Be6 19 c5 Rfd8, I agree that Black should be holding after White’s e4-e5 and Nc3-e4-d6 and that Kevinludwig’s f4-f5 plan might be more promising. But isn’t 14 Be3 very strong? AvH’s 14 …Qc7 might be the worst response (what does Black do after 15 Bf4 threatening c5?), but Black’s position also looks thankless after both 14 …Qa6 15 Bf4 Qc4 16 Bd6 Bd6 (or 16 …Qe6 17 e5 0-0 18 Ne4) 17 Qd6 Qe6 18 Qc7 and 14 …Qd8 15 Qd3 0-0 16 Rad1. These positions are very messy and maybe Black can defend some of them OK, but it seems a rather grim task. So what do you think Black’s best line is here, Christoph?

All this makes the other variations a bit academic for me, but here’s what I concluded:

(I)      Kevinludwig’s 11 cd Qd4 seems OK for Black after either 12 Be3 Qb2 or 12 Na3 Nc4. (In the line he gives 17 d5 immediately might be better than 17 a4, but still no problem.)

(II)      The 11 Na3 dc 12 bc Be7!? 13 Bb3 0-0 lines need much more analysis, but could well be OK.

(III)      11 Bb3 Be6!? (11 …Be7 still seems OK as Black survives the quick attacks, though White’s Bc2/cd/Nc3/Be3 plan is possible here too) is very interesting. After Tracke’s 12 Be6 fe 13 cd Qd4 14 Nc3! the d-pawn is obviously immune and Black must play 14 …Be7, but he looks to be surviving after 15 Be3 Qd3 16 Qb3 0-0 (16 …Qa6? 17 Qe6 Qc4 allows the 18 Nd5! idea) 17 Qb7 Bf6 18 Rad1 Qc4!?.
  
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kevinludwig
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #20 - 06/25/05 at 04:11:38
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CWisnewski:

Fritz does not like Black's position at all in the line given after 19. c5. What ends up happening, is instead of playing e5 and allowing the bishop to outpost on d5, the computer suggests f2-f4-f5, dislodging the bishop from e6 while denying the square d5 (g2-g4 may come later also). Then the King improves via Kf2-Ke3. The computer wants to play your b6 idea, but white will not take on b6, and if black exchanges on c5 then white goes Ra1, and maybe Ra6, targetting a7 and c6 pawns. Also, trading a second pair of rooks on the d-file (after centralizing the king via Kf8-Ke7) didn't seem good either...white's king seems better prepared to penetrate.

As a side note, I have been inspired by this thread to take up Bird's defence in my online games. So far, the games have been a lot of fun. Thanks for the interesting ideas.
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #19 - 06/23/05 at 10:43:52
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I briefly looked at some of the variations; not at all though, since I stopped at the first possible "offroad".

I already talked to AvH on ICC, but I haven't been able to convince him so far. However, I promised him to elaborate my opinions in a post, and maybe some of you others have an opinion as well.

In the variation given after 11.a3 Nxc4 12.dxc4 dxc3 13.Nxc3 Be7 14.Bf4 0-0 15.Bxd6 Bxd6 16.Qxd6 Qxb2 17.Qb4, I am not yet convinced that Black is worse here. Let me explain:

After 17...Qxb4 18.axb4 Be6 19.c5 White does seem to have prospects if he can get a knight to d6. However, this can only be done if he plays e4-e5 (and then Nc3-e4-d6), which takes time.

Black can play 19...Rfd8 in the meantime. The idea is to trade a pair of rooks (which White is forced to, I think, since otherwise, for example if White plays 20.e5 to get his knight to d6, Black can attack b4 by 20...Rd4 which is not that accomodating for White in my opinion) to relieve the pressure of a7. If White exchanges rooks on the d-file, in order to proceed with his original plan to occupy d6 with e4-e5, then Black has a nice outpost on d5 for his bishop as well. And, if a pair of rooks is gone, Black probably can play b6 (as soon as the rook is gone from the a-file, which he is after the exchange on the d-file) and either trade on c5 or get hanging pawns (which are no weakness thanks to the Bishop d5) against a weak pawn b4. In both cases, I even like Black better.

Any opinions on these thoughts? Those have been only brief, but I don't see how White can claim any advantage.
  

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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #18 - 06/22/05 at 06:17:37
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Interesting analysis!

I currently don't have a board at my disposal, but will sure have a look at that line when I am coming home.

Will post some thoughts later.
  

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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #17 - 06/22/05 at 06:16:46
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Hmmm, some problems with 'bold'. I wanted to make a and a1 etc. bold but that didn't work  Sad
Here is the post again, but then without the 'bold stuff'
Can someone delete the previous please?
Hi,
Interesting topic!, it would be great if black could equalize with the bird against the Ruy Lopez as I'm just trying to find a decent variation as black against the Ruy  Cheesy. In the main line 10...Qb6 is indeed very interesting! Here are some analysis after 11.a3 where black goes back into a sort of the old main line. The logical move 13...Be6 (preparing 0-0-0 and then maybe once d5) runs into Nd5 and after Qd8 white calmly plays Bf4 and Qd4 and he centralizes the rooks preparing the e5 break and he is much better. So no 13...Be6, but maybe 13...Be7. Then after 14.Be3 Qc7 (not Qxb2 15.Nd5) or 14.e5 black should be fine, but 14.Bf4 is interesting, for example: a:14...0-0 15.Bxd6 a1Rd8? 16.Nd5!! a2: 15...Bxe6 16.Qxd6 Qxb2 17.Qb4! (Qd2 18.Re3! threatening Rd1 so for example Qd4 19.Rd1 Qe5 20.Qd6! Qxd6 21.Rxd6 and c5 and white's better) 18...Qxb4 18.axb4 and white's I think better because of black's weak a-pawn and white can create a stronghold for the knight on d6.
b:14...Qxb2. Now the logical move b1:15.Qd4? doesn't work, because of 0-0! (not 15...Bf6 16.e5) 16.Reb1 Bf6 17.e5 Bxe5 18.Bxe5 dxe5 19.Qd3 Bf5! b2: 15.Re3!? This is a nice move. From this great square the rook defends the knight and indirectly also the a3 pawn, because of Nd5!, so if white gets a free move he will play Rb1 Qxa3 Nd5! winning, so black moves the queen back to b6. 15...Qb6 16.e5!? White's much better developed so he breaks in the center. 16...dxe5 17.Bxe5 and here b21:0-0 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Rxe7 and  I think white is clearly better. Maybe black should try 18...Qxe3!? when I think the position is unclear.
b22: Qd8 18.Qxd8+ Kxd8 19.Rd1+ Ke8 b221 20.f4? preparing Bd6 and after Be6 f5 doesn't work because of the easy 20...Be6. B222 20.Bxg7! Rg8 21.Bf6 Be6 22.Bxe7!? Kxe7 23.f4!? and after white playing 24.Ne4 I quite like white's position.
b23: Be6? This is just bad, because of 18.Bxg7 Rg8 19.Rxe6! fxe6 20.Qh5+ Kd7 21.Rd1+ Kc8 22.Qf7 +-
c: Be6 now Nd5 doesn't work, but white has 15.Bxd6 and now c1 15...Bxd6 16.Qxd6 Rd8 (Bxc4?? 17.Nd5! +-; 16...Qd8 e5 and white's better) and here just as in line a 17.Qb4! Qxb4 18.axb4 a6 and here it seems like black doesn't have enough compensation for the pawn.
c2 15...Rd8 16.c5! and white's just winning.
There may be lots of flaws in my analysis, but these analysis show that white is better in almost all lines. Does anyone have comments on these analysis? I worked about 4 hours on it, so I would be pleased if someone would respond  Wink. Possibly, black shouldn't play 13...Be7 at all?!
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #16 - 06/22/05 at 06:07:49
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Hi,
Interesting topic!, it would be great if black could equalize with the bird against the Ruy Lopez as I'm just trying to find a decent variation as black against the Ruy Cheesy. In the main line 10...Qb6 is indeed very interesting! Here are some analysis after 11.a3 where black goes back into a sort of the old main line. The logical move 13...Be6 (preparing 0-0-0 and then maybe once d5) runs into Nd5 and after Qd8 white calmly plays Bf4 and Qd4 and he centralizes the rooks preparing the e5 break and he is much better. So no 13...Be6, but maybe 13...Be7. Then after 14.Be3 Qc7 (not Qxb2 15.Nd5) or 14.e5 black should be fine, but is interesting, for example: :14...0-0 15.Bxd6 Rd8? 16.Nd5!! : 15...Bxe6 16.Qxd6 Qxb2 17.Qb4! (Qd2 18.Re3! threatening Rd1 so for example Qd4 19.Rd1 Qe5 20.Qd6! Qxd6 21.Rxd6 and c5 and white's better) 18...Qxb4 18.axb4 and white's I think better because of black's weak a-pawn and white can create a stronghold for the knight on d6.
:14...Qxb2. Now the logical move b1:15.Qd4? doesn't work, because of 0-0! (not 15...Bf6 16.e5) 16.Reb1 Bf6 17.e5 Bxe5 18.Bxe5 dxe5 19.Qd3 Bf5! b2: 15.Re3!? This is a nice move. From this great square the rook defends the knight and indirectly also the a3 pawn, because of Nd5!, so if white gets a free move he will play Rb1 Qxa3 Nd5! winning, so black moves the queen back to b6. 15...Qb6 16.e5!? White's much better developed so he breaks in the center. 16...dxe5 17.Bxe5 and here :0-0 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Rxe7 and  I think white is clearly better. Maybe black should try 18...Qxe3!? when I think the position is unclear.
: Qd8 18.Qxd8+ Kxd8 19.Rd1+ Ke8 20.f4? preparing Bd6 and after Be6 f5 doesn't work because of the easy 20...Be6. B222 20.Bxg7! Rg8 21.Bf6 Be6 22.Bxe7!? Kxe7 23.f4!? and after white playing 24.Ne4 I quite like white's position.
: Be6? This is just bad, because of 18.Bxg7 Rg8 19.Rxe6! fxe6 20.Qh5+ Kd7 21.Rd1+ Kc8 22.Qf7 +-
: Be6 now Nd5 doesn't work, but white has 15.Bxd6 and now 15...Bxd6 16.Qxd6 Rd8 (Bxc4?? 17.Nd5! +-; 16...Qd8 e5 and white's better) and here just as in line a 17.Qb4! Qxb4 18.axb4 a6 and here it seems like black doesn't have enough compensation for the pawn.
15...Rd8 16.c5! and white's just winning.
There may be lots of flaws in my analysis, but these analysis show that white is better in almost all lines. Does anyone have comments on these analysis? I worked about 4 hours on it, so I would be pleased if someone would respond  Wink. Possibly, black shouldn't play 13...Be7 at all?!
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #15 - 06/20/05 at 23:19:52
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My first impression was that white should try to take advantage of the black king position. So,

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. 0-0 c6 6. Bc4 Nf6 7. Re1 d6 8. c3 Ng4 9. h3 Ne5 10. d3 Qb6!? 11. cxd4 Qxd4 12. Be3 Qxb2 13. Nbd2.

Fritz has three recommendations here:
13. ...b5. This comes out equal, but only because of a repetition that white has a hard time to avoid. 14. Rb1 Qc3 15. Rc1 Qb2. But, if 15. ...Qb4 or 15. ...Qa5, white will have a lot of fun from what I can tell. Too bad about the repetition...
13. ...Nxc4. This is just bad I think. 14. Nxc4 Qf6 15. e5! Qd8 16. exd6 Be6 17. f4!, etc.
13. ...Be7 Looks safest. 14. d4 Nxc4 15. Nxc4 Qb5 16. 0-0 17. a4 Qa6 18. d5, more or less equal, but I guess I would begin to prefer black here because of the bishops.

So when I started writing this post, I was hoping white had something, but I guess not...
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #14 - 06/16/05 at 12:01:04
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Whoa, this conversation really gets interesting!

@Michael Aydon

I will sure have a look at your ...Be7 lines. Those seem to be very interesting.

I analyzed ...Be6 a few hours with danish IMs Pedersen and Fries-Nielsen; we (or rather they, since I mainly took the black pieces) could not find any way for White to get a clear advantage. Another idea was to play 12.Bc2 (in order to protect d3 and "threaten" cxd4 followed by Nc3 and Be3 when the black queen could get into trouble), but Black maybe can play 12...c5!? then, with the idea to protect the pawn and free c6 for the knight. Black's pawn structure seems strange after a trade on d4, but the Bc2 is weak and Black's prospects on the queen side (nice piece play, open c-file) looked promising.

I don't say that Black can equalize easily in all variations, but the positions are not worse but rather unclear at best! An assessment I would take in any game (especially if the arising positions are unfamiliar with the "normal" Ruy Lopez player).

@tracke

After 11...Be6 12.Bxe6 fxe6 13.cxd4 Qxd4 14.Nc3 ... Isn't d3 just hanging? Or what am I missing here? (I don't have a board at my disposal, so it could just be an oversight Smiley)

@Paddy

Thanks again for the additional sources. Another idea White could try is 11.a3!? The idea is to threaten cxd4 followed immediately by Be3, as Black cannot take on b2 because of Ra2 (and the queen is lost!). Black can "transpose" into the main line with ...Nxc4 and ...dxc3, when the moves a2-a3 and ...Qd8-b6 are inserted. Black has to be careful not to run into Nc3-d5 motives, but I think the weaknesses on the queen side are a factor that favor Black (compared to the original main line).
  

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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #13 - 06/16/05 at 06:28:19
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[quote author=Michael Ayton  link=1118828898/0#6 date=1118847195]Thanks Christoph! -- interesting! So: 11 Na3 dc 12 bc and then? Maybe 12 ...Nc4 13 Nc4 Qd8? Is that right? I can see this is going to be sharp and complicated but is ...d5 going to happen? (14 d4!?, 14 Rb1!?)
[/quote]

Here are the only games I can find with 10...Qb6, answered by 11 Na3 in both cases. Not much help, but possibly useful as a starting point.

[Event "ICCF World Cup"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hoffmann"]
[Black "Berg"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C61"]
[Annotator "Paddy"]
[PlyCount "125"]
[EventDate "1994.??.??"]
[Source "?"]
[SourceDate "?"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. O-O c6 6. Bc4 Nf6 7. Re1 d6 8. c3 Ng4 9. h3 Ne5 10. d3 Qb6 11. Na3 Be7 (11... dxc3 12. bxc3 Qa5 13. f4 Nd7 (13... Qxc3 14. Rb1 Nxc4 15. Nxc4 Qd4+ 16. Be3 Qf6 17. e5 dxe5 18. Bd4 (18. fxe5 Qg6) looks better for White e.g. 18... Be6 19. Bxe5 Qg6 20. Rxb7 Bc5+ 21. d4 O-O 22. f5 Qxf5 23. Ne3 Qg5 24. h4 Qxh4 25. dxc5) 14. Nc2 Nb6 15. Bb3 Qxc3 16. Bd2 Qf6 17. Rc1 Be6 18. Ne3 Be7 19. Ng4 Qh4 20. Be3 Bxb3 21. Qxb3 Bd8 22. a4 Qe7 23. a5 Nc8 24. Bd4 O-O 25. f5 Qd7 26. f6 Bxf6 27. Bxf6 h5 28. Ne3 gxf6 29. Qd1 Ne7 30. Qxh5 Kg7 31. Nf5+ Nxf5 32. Qg4+ Kh7 33. exf5 Rae8 34. Qh4+ 1-0 Zalys,I-Sarar,J/cr 1984/ (34)}) 12. cxd4 Qxd4 13. Nc2 Qb6 14.Be3 c5 15. Bd5 O-O 16. d4 Nc6 17. Rb1 a5 18. b3 Be6 19. Bxe6 fxe6 20. d5 exd5 21. Qxd5+ Kh8 22. a3 Qc7 23. Red1 b5 24. Rbc1 Rac8 25. f3 Rf6 26. Kh1 Rg6 27.
Ne1 b4 28. a4 Ne5 29. Nd3 Nxd3 30. Rxd3 Rf8 31. Rc2 Bh4 32. e5 Be7 33. exd6 Rxd6 34. Qe5 Qd7 35. Rxd6 Bxd6 36. Qe4 Qc7 37. Rd2 Be7 38. Qe6 Rf6 39. Rd7 Rxe6 40. Rxc7 Kg8 41. Bxc5 Bxc5 42. Rxc5 Re3 43. Rxa5 Rxb3 44. Rb5 Rb1+ 45. Kh2 b3 46. a5 Ra1 47. Rxb3 Rxa5 48. f4 Kf7 49. g4 Ra7 50. Kg3 Ke6 51. Rb6+ Kd5 52. f5 Ke5 53. Re6+ Kd5 54. Re8 h6 55. Kh4 Rc7 56. Kh5 Rc3 57. Kg6 Rxh3 58. Kxg7 Rg3 59. Kxh6 Rxg4 60. f6 Rf4 61. Kg6 Rg4+ 62. Kf5 Rg1 63. f7 1-0

The above (including the header details) can be copied into a text file then saved as pgn and read by Chessbase. Fritz etc.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #12 - 06/16/05 at 05:21:35
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Hi Tracke

Sorry, brainstorm! -- I've now corrected the post.

I've only looked at this briefly (and it has to be said, pub 'analysis' ain't analysis!), but aren't the following good for Black? -- please correct me if I'm wrong.

11 Bb3 Be7 12 Kh1 dc 13 f4 and now:

(i) 13 ...Qf2 14 Rf1 Nd3 15 Nc3 Qg3

(ii) 13 ...cb 14 Bb2 Qf2 15 Be5 de

In (ii), how does it help White if his King is on h2 rather than h1?
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #11 - 06/16/05 at 04:41:53
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[quote author=Michael Ayton  link=1118828898/0#10 date=1118893161][...]we looked mainly at 11 Bb3 Be7 12 Kh1?!, realising this is too slow after 12 ...dc 13 f4? Qh4 (or indeed 13 ...cb).[...][/quote]
Qh4 ?? What do you mean? I think that 11.Bb3 is strongest and analyzed 11...Be7 12.f4!? dc+ 13.Kh1/Kh2, what is a transposition. It´s very sharp but I see no real reason for White to avoid this.
After 11...Be6 I play 12.Bxe6 fe 13.cd Qxd4 14.Nc3. Again I prefer White.
Maybe 11...a5?!

tracke  :)
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #10 - 06/16/05 at 03:39:21
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Hi Christoph! In the pub we looked mainly at 11 Bb3 Be7 12 Kh1?!, realising this is too slow after 12 ...dc 13 f4? Qf2 (or indeed 13 ...cb). But yes, 11 ...Be6!? looks interesting too!

I'm wondering now about something like 11 Na3 dc 12 bc Be7 13 Bb3 0-0 14 d4 Ng6 15 Nc4 (15 Qf3!?) Qc7 16 Rb1!? (16 ...Be6!?, 16 ...b5!?). Looking forward to more later!
« Last Edit: 06/16/05 at 05:22:34 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #9 - 06/16/05 at 02:31:44
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I thank you, Michael. This is the lively conversation I was looking forward to.

I agree, the whole line is very interesting. And the move 11.Bb3 occurs very often in my games. What possible moves to continue have your friends analyzed? If I recall correctly, my main move was 11...Be6 to keep the pressure on.

Will be home tonight, so maybe I can hook up and post some more ideas.
  

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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #8 - 06/15/05 at 17:44:41
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Thanks very much for this -- I now see the point of delaying/omitting the Bishop capture, partly because I and some clubmates (the strongest being around 200 BCF) have just been looking at this in the pub tonight! Actually we were looking at 10 ...Qb6 11 Bb3, and we concluded Black is OK! The whole line is very interesting, and I for one would love to see more on this when you reconnect with your analysis.


  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #7 - 06/15/05 at 15:57:57
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@Michael Aydon

I don't have much material on the whole 10...Qb6 line, as well as I don't have that much practical experience (in most games White players don't get that far and deviate earlier).

As for 8.d3, I think this is harmless. Black can play 8...Be7 which prepares the advance ...d6-d5. I don't see how White can successfully prevent that. Black should be able to equalize then.

About your question: I don't think that Black should trade on c4 as long as he is not forced to do so (The white bishop doesn't do anything that harms Black). Perhaps he can develop with Be7. Or he can trade with Be6 (which would support ...d5 additionally, and maybe even give Black some play on the f-file). I don't know as I am not at home at the moment and therefore cannot consult my analysis. But I'll post some more thoughts on this later.
  

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