After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nd4 4. Bc4 Nxf3+ 5.Qxf3 doesn't White just stand better?

P.S. Is there any good literature about the bird?

The "latest" literature I could dig up for this subject were two rather thin booklets by Colin Leach (somewhere in the 80s) and one by P. Romario in the 90s.

Since the "main line" mentioned above was published in the 60s, no one dared to take as a more serious matter; something I want to change!

Therefore I was trying to start a discussion about several critical lines; the main line already took some shape.

About those d3 sacs; I don't get many games with that (no tournament game so far, just a few games on the net, though they were quite fun) - but if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask and I would be glad to try to answer them!

Greetings!

I'd hate to see this discussion vanish, so I felt to ask a few questions since I am now more willing (as having more time) to analyze possible problems:

@MichealAydon

In an earlier post, you stated that after

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.0-0 c6 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Re1 d6 8.c3 Ng4 9.h3 Ne5 10.d3 Qb6!? 11.Bb3 Be6 12.Bxe6 fxe6 13.cxd4 Qxd4 14.Nc3!

"the white d-pawn is obviously immune".

That might be true in view of 14...Qxd3 15.Qb3, but what if I play 14....0-0-0 (in order to protect b7 and to get my king into some safety)? The pawn is still hanging then, and I am sure you would not want to protect it with 15.Re3, as 15...g5 should be clearly better for Black (as the centre is completely fixed and Black has a good grip on the dark squares). 15.Qb3 may be well met with 15...d5, and although the configuration looks a bit shaky (e.g. 16.Be3 Qxd3 17.Bxa7!? or 16.exd5 exd5 17.Be3 Qxd3 18.Bxa7!?), I did not find an immediate way to refute it (I don't have an engine at my hand, so tactical oversights are possible), although I admit that this are just ideas to get the conversation going again. If there is no refutation, d3 is still hanging, and Black can complete his development while having a strong centre.

@kevinludwig

Your last statement was that Black has difficulties in an upcoming endgame since after

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.0-0 c6 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Re1 d6 8.c3 Ng4 9.h3 Ne5 10.d3 Qb6!? 11.a3 Nxc4 12.dxc4 bxc3 13.Nxc3 Be7 14.Bf4 0-0 15.Bxd6 Bxd6 16.Qxd6 Qxb2 17.Qb4 Qxb4 18.axb4 Be6 19.c5

"what ends up happening, is instead of playing e5 and allowing the bishop to outpost on d5, the computer suggests f2-f4-f5, dislodging the bishop from e6 while denying the square d5 (g2-g4 may come later also). Then the King improves via Kf2-Ke3. ... White's king seems better prepared to penetrate."

I'd like to challenge that statement, as I would like to know how White can make concrete progress:

- When playing 19...Rfd8, White should be forced to play Rd1 to prevent ...Rd4. Granted, it is possible to come up with f2-f4-f5 and Kf2-e3, but the Bishop will find a rather safen haven on c4. I do not see how White can manage to restrict the bishop.

- It is even possible to regroup the bishop to a6, where it relieves the a-Rook of his duty to protect a7 AND where it protects b7 as well. Due to the fixed pawns it is not even possible for White to dislodge the bishop from there, as the knight will never get any access to c7.

- White will never gain control of the d-file. On the other hand, I do not see why Black should fear an endgame Knight vs. Bishop. While White should not be able to exploit his kingside majority, Black might be very able to do so with his queenside majority. There are not any weaknesses in the black camp, and the white knight will have a hard time creating some. Granted, Black does not have great winning chances, but that's life

But enough for now. I'd be glad to get some "fresh eyes" on my thought. Of course, people are also welcome to discuss any other lines than the main line; Bird's Defence is so full of possibilities!

So, I had a rather quick look at the position in the line with 11.a3!?

As already mentioned by AvH, I can't see what is wrong with the position after 11...Nxc4 12.dxc4 bxc3 13.Nxc3 Be7 14.Be3 Qa6 15.Bf4 0-0!

White can play 16.Bxd6 Bxd6 17.Qxd6 Qxc4 when he may gain control over the d-file, but how much is that? Black can comfortably blockade the e-pawn, and White does not manage to get his knight to d6 for example, as Black can play ...Bf5 in response to e4-e5

Well, I admire your assiduity and I'm sure you are right in principle not to give up. But as well as suspecting White is always going to be better after 11 a3 I'm also worried by the lack of counterplay in many of these lines. Take for example the line you mention with 17 e5 0-0 18 Ne4. I can see that this is very messy and that it could be that Black can defend if he plays highly accurately, but isn't it true that most of the practical chances are with White and Black faces a thankless task showing he's OK here? If 18 ...Re8 then maybe 19 Re3, and I'd wager the late great Henry Bird himself would much rather have White. I haven't at all given up on the Bird's -- it's just that with so many much more exciting variations to investigate (e.g. Bird's original 5 ...h5!?) I don't myself fancy devoting more time to this line just yet. But of course I'll hang in if some interesting analysis appears ...

I don't see it either, AvH! Moreover 15 ...0-0 looks grotty too. So unless Christoph can come up with something pretty drastic, 14 Be3, and possibly also the 14 Bf4 ending, look to put the 10 ...Qb6 idea under a cloud, from under which I for one suspect it will not emerge ...

Of course the Bird's as a whole is far from dead, and maybe we need to start looking at other lines. One possibility is to play ...Qb6 on move 8, as Tolush used to do. Anyway, if I get time later I'll start a new thread on Mr Bird's combative and interesting variation.

@MichaelAydon

Again, I have no board with me, but remember to have analysed your line earlier with the "inventor" of 11.a3

I think we also had 14.Be3 as our "main line", thinking that Black might be able to hold on by playing 14...Qa6 15.Bf4 Qxc4 16.Bxd6 Bxd6 17.Qxd6 Qe6 18.Qc7 (we only had 18.Qa3, but this might be similar) Qe7

Now, if White trades queens, Black won't have any problems at all. On the other hand, if White does not trade queens, what should he do? Black can comfortably develop with Be6 and 0-0. I don't see any problems with Black's position here.

@KevinLudwig

As I pointed out earlier, I only had a short look at the whole variation. But I will surely have a deeper look over the next week. I do think, too, that this is the crucial line for the whole system.

@kevinludwig

I indeed think that your plan is very interesting and it may be better than my original plan, but also in your variations the d6 square may be useful for white.

@Michael Ayton

You might/may be right that 14.Be3 is the move. At first sight I thought that 14...Qc7 would be just fine for black, but indeed only then your idea Bf4 with c5 may be very good for white. I only very shortly looked at 15.Bf4 Be6 16.c5 Rd8 and I thought black didn't have problems, but his position is just terrible. White can play either 17.Re2-d2 of 17.Qa4 (Fritz8) with a good position for white.
14...Qd8 just sucks as you are back in the old main-line, with white having played the extra moves Be3 and a3. Be3 won't be a useful won tempo, but a3 is I think just a small extra advantage for white, above the already clear advantage he has in the main line without Qb6.
After 14...Qa6!? 15.Bf4 black can also castle and after 16.Bxd6 Bxd6 17.Qxd6 Qxc4 we have almost the same position as I analysed a bit in my previous post. The difference is that black now has taken the d-pawn instead of the b-pawn. I'm not sure which side benefits the most from this difference. If the idea from kevinludwig really gives white a clear advantage this variation of course can only be in black's favour.
This was it for now, any comments?