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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence (Read 45545 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #51 - 08/03/11 at 17:48:11
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Interesting stuff. But why, after 7 Ba4 d6, is 8 f4 now considered the main line, rather than 8 Bb3? I know it's been played much more often, but then so has 8 Nd2. Is there now consensus as to what Black should do after 8 Bb3? (I was guessing that 8 ...Ne7 9 f4 f5 might be the way to go but neither this nor anything else looks reliable to me ...)
« Last Edit: 08/04/11 at 06:33:58 by Michael Ayton »  
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urusov
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #50 - 08/03/11 at 02:13:02
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Just FYI: for those looking for sources, I posted a Bird Defense Bibliography in 2008:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2008/11/birds-defense-bibliography-c61.html

Since then, Sokolov's excellent "The Ruy Lopez Revisited" (New in Chess 2010) is the most important addition.

I have a lot of success with the Bird Defense and find the majority of my opponents do not know what they are doing.  A recent case in point:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2011/balakrishnan-goeller.htm
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #49 - 07/28/11 at 14:21:21
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micawber wrote on 02/19/06 at 19:52:35:
I liked the analysis of the variation
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5,Nd4 4.Nxd,exd 5.0-0,Bc5 6.Ba4,c6
but I wonder if the following variation doesnt cause more trouble:
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5,Nd4 4.Nxd,exd 5.Bc4
when neither 5...c6 or 5...Bc5 seem very good ideas.
So black should probably continue:
5.Bc4,Nf6 6.0-0,d6 when 7.c3 should grant white a small advantage.

I would like your comments on this

In chessbase(keys) the main line is 5.Bc4 Nf6 6.0-0 Ne4 7.Bf7+ it seem rather complicate
  
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fling
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #48 - 07/27/11 at 11:47:49
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Tater_Salad wrote on 11/13/05 at 02:05:35:
after playing a few games, i have to stick with my original assessment that 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. O-O Bc5 6. d3 c6 7. Ba4 Ne7 8. f4 isn't nearly as good for white as it may look. i think the problem with a lot of these bird lines is that both engines and humans have the tendency to jump the gun with d5, and i'm not really sure why. i'm not a big praxis guy, but one that i actually abide by almost religiously is not breaking open the middle of the board before castling unless the particular tactics of the position deem it necessary. in these lines, its not as if white has so much going that the immediate c6/d5 is neccessary to push him back. white is still trying to get developed, and those moves will still be there in the meantime.

anyways. after 8....o-o, 9.f4 has been the most common response for me to this point. its pretty hard to develop otherwise, and 9...f6 is blacks best reply, so at least it doesn't waste another move.


Maybe it is time to dig up this thread and state that after 10. f5, according to Greet, White has a strong attack. The question is if the Bishop is out of play, and for that matter, if it matters to White's attack since Black has some pieces out of play.

Some analysis by Sokolov seem to suggest Black is ok in other lines, but I have to say they look very suspicious, with a rook on h7 e.g.

Markovich's idea of playing an early c3 might be White's best option.

Another way is to have the discussion under the Spanish repertoire-thread.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #47 - 02/07/07 at 13:48:24
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Quote:
I liked the analysis of the variation
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5,Nd4 4.Nxd,exd 5.0-0,Bc5 6.Ba4,c6
but I wonder if the following variation doesnt cause more trouble:
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5,Nd4 4.Nxd,exd 5.Bc4
when neither 5...c6 or 5...Bc5 seem very good ideas.

5...Bc5 is a trap (that I've won the odd game with). White can win a pawn with 6.Bxf7+!

Still, I'd be interested to know how 5.Bc4 fares if Black knows to avoid this trap.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #46 - 03/06/06 at 18:02:51
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In an earlier post, you stated that after 

"1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.0-0 c6 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Re1 d6 8.c3 Ng4 9.h3 Ne5 10.d3 Qb6!? 11.Bb3 Be6 12.Bxe6 fxe6 13.cxd4 Qxd4 14.Nc3!

"the white d-pawn is obviously immune". 

That might be true in view of 14...Qxd3 15.Qb3, but what if I play 14....0-0-0 (in order to protect b7 and to get my king into some safety)? The pawn is still hanging then, and I am sure you would not want to protect it with 15.Re3, as 15...g5 should be clearly better for Black (as the centre is completely fixed and Black has a good grip on the dark squares). 15.Qb3 may be well met with 15...d5, and although the configuration looks a bit shaky (e.g. 16.Be3 Qxd3 17.Bxa7!? or 16.exd5 exd5 17.Be3 Qxd3 18.Bxa7!?), I did not find an immediate way to refute it (I don't have an engine at my hand, so tactical oversights are possible), although I admit that this are just ideas to get the conversation going again. If there is no refutation, d3 is still hanging, and Black can complete his development while having a strong centre.


I've been looking at the position after 16.Be3 Qxd3 17.Bxa7? and it looks pretty horrendous for black. I'm assuming black continues with 17...Bd6, but then 18.Bb6! Rdf8 19.Rac1! seems to give black quite a headache.

Perhaps I'm missing improvements for black here, but this is looking pretty terrible to me, and if this is the case then 11...Be6 would be unplayable and 11.Bb3! would be a critical test. 11.a3 and 11.Na3 seem to give white a small edge as well (which is unfortunate, since I was looking to take up the Bird with these ideas).

Best wishes,
Craig
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #45 - 02/19/06 at 19:52:35
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I liked the analysis of the variation
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5,Nd4 4.Nxd,exd 5.0-0,Bc5 6.Ba4,c6
but I wonder if the following variation doesnt cause more trouble:
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5,Nd4 4.Nxd,exd 5.Bc4
when neither 5...c6 or 5...Bc5 seem very good ideas.
So black should probably continue:
5.Bc4,Nf6 6.0-0,d6 when 7.c3 should grant white a small advantage.

I would like your comments on this
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #44 - 02/17/06 at 21:45:55
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@ AvH

Thanks for your post. Yes, 11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.Bf4 seems to be very strong and I don't see an convincing way for Black to continue  Sad
I wonder what IM Wisnewski would do here ...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #43 - 02/17/06 at 10:56:06
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Interesting posts. Sorry, Tater_Salad, I didn't manage to get with your comments on the 7 Ba4 Bird's before the "great crash". Looking at the position after 4 Nd4 ed 5 0-0 Bc5 6 d3 c6 7 Ba4 Ne7 8 f4, I notice that 8 ...0-0 hasn't been played very often and I wondered why. Perhaps, following 9 f4 f6, 10 Nd2 isn't the best move. What if instead White goes for a caveman attack with Qh5 and Rf3--h3? -- how should Black respond? After say 10 ...d5 11 Rf3 Bd6 12 Rh3 Qa5! (=) the caveman gets clubbed back, but obviously White can avoid this. After e.g. 12 Bb3 here isn't Black at risk of getting a cramped and thankless position?
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #42 - 02/15/06 at 15:01:47
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I've looked at these variations a few months ago and I also think that after 10.Qg4 Ne3 11.Qh5 white is winning. 10...Qf6 may be an alternative. I think 10.Qh5! is a very good move. After 10...Kd7 I think white should play 11.Bxd5 and after cxd5 12.Bf4. In my opinion white is clearly better. Qe5 or Be5 or Nd2-b3,f3 may be coming. Black's d4 pawn is very weak and black's king isn't comfortably placed at d7. Black's other possibility is 11...Bxd5, but I don't really see what's wrong with grabbing the pawn: 12.Qg4+ and white's again clearly better, so I don't like 10...Kd7. I, however don't see a good alternative so I just play 7...d6, which is a bit safer.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #41 - 02/15/06 at 14:08:59
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Hello,

what do you think about these sidelines:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd 5.0-0 c6 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.d3 d5 8.exd Nxd5 9.Re1+ Be6

And now either:

a.) 10. Qg4;  on ICC I've noticed that most players prefer 10 ... Ne3 now, but after, for example, 11. Qh5 g6 12. Qe5 Black seems to be in trouble.

b.) 10.Qh5 Kd7 as occured in Izrailev-Wisnewski 2003. Kd7 looks indeed quite interesting and I would like to know whether you think it is rather an experimental move or whether Black has good chances to hold this positions.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #40 - 11/13/05 at 02:05:35
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after playing a few games, i have to stick with my original assessment that 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. O-O Bc5 6. d3 c6 7. Ba4 Ne7 8. f4 isn't nearly as good for white as it may look. i think the problem with a lot of these bird lines is that both engines and humans have the tendency to jump the gun with d5, and i'm not really sure why. i'm not a big praxis guy, but one that i actually abide by almost religiously is not breaking open the middle of the board before castling unless the particular tactics of the position deem it necessary. in these lines, its not as if white has so much going that the immediate c6/d5 is neccessary to push him back. white is still trying to get developed, and those moves will still be there in the meantime.

anyways. after 8....o-o, 9.f4 has been the most common response for me to this point. its pretty hard to develop otherwise, and 9...f6 is blacks best reply, so at least it doesn't waste another move. now after 10. Bf4 d5 11. Bb3 Kh8 white still doesn't have any plans that look all that promising to me. this particular game went 12. a3 b6 13. Kh1 Bd6 14. Qe2 dxe4 15. Qxe4 Bxf4 16. Rxf4 Re8 17. Bf7 Bxf5 18. Qxd4 Rf8 19. Bb3 Qxd4 20. Rxd4 Rad8 21. Rxd8 Rxd8. sure, white could have tried harder for some complications, but i dont really see anything there that would give the upper hand.

the rest of the game is pretty boring unless you enjoy watching computers butcher end games. 22. Nd2 g6 23. Re1 Nd5 24. h3 a5 25. Nf3 Rd6 26. c4 Nf4 27. d4 Re6 28. d5 cxd5 29. cxd5 Rd6 30. g4 Bd7 31. Nd2 f5 32. Nc4 Rxd5 33. Ne5 Rd4 34. Nxd7 Rxd7 35. gxf5 Rd3 36. Be6 Rxh3+  7. Kg1 Rd3 38. f6 Rd6 39. f7 Nxe6 40. Rxe6 Rd1+ 41. Kg2 Kg7 42. Rxb6 Kxf7 43. Rb7+ Kf6 44. b4 Rd2+ 45. Kf3 Rd3+ 46.  f4 g5+ 47. Kg4 Rd4+ 48. Kf3 axb4 49. Ke3 Rh4 50. axb4 h6 51. b5 Ke5 52. b6 Rb4 53. Rb8 Kd5 54. Kf3 h5 55. b7 Rb3+ 56. Kf2 Rb2+ 57. Ke3 Kc6 58. Rh8 Rxb7 59. Rxh5 Rg7 60.  f3 Kd5 61. Kg4 Rg6 62. Rxg5+ Rxg5+ 63. Kxg5 {Draw}  1/2-1/2
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #39 - 11/12/05 at 13:32:37
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Quote:
I don't really know anything about these lines, but I had thought (1) that 7 Ba4, not 7 Bc4, was the test of Black's play, and (2) that after 7 Ba4 Ne7, 8 f4 gave White the advantage. Am I wrong?


i dunno, maybe, but it doesn't really look all that hot to me at first glance. f4 is nice in that it covers e5, but does white really even have the time for that? there is already the problem of developing the queenside pieces, and f4 further limits that by blocking off g5 and f4 from the dark squared bishop. f4 also creates a couple of nice places for black to position his pieces, on d5 and f5, after the inevetiable pawn push in the center.

after 8...O-O how does black go about developing his queenside and dealing with d5, which frees up black as well as knocking white out of sole control in the center? unless their is some tactical finesse working in white's favor in this position, it looks at least equal, if not better for black to me.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #38 - 11/12/05 at 04:36:13
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I don't really know anything about these lines, but I had thought (1) that 7 Ba4, not 7 Bc4, was the test of Black's play, and (2) that after 7 Ba4 Ne7, 8 f4 gave White the advantage. Am I wrong?
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Bird's Defence
Reply #37 - 11/12/05 at 01:10:15
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unless improvements have been found for white, i don't really see what was ever wrong with the 5...Bc5 lines for black. this is the analysis that i have:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. O-O Bc5 6. d3 c6 7. Bc4 (7. Ba4 Ne7 8. Nd2 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Re1+ Be6 = karpov-kapreichik) d5 8. exd5 cxd5 9. Bb5+ Bd7 10. Bxd7+ Qxd7 11. Nd2 Ne7 12. Nb3 Bb6 13. Bg5 f6
14. Bd2 a5 = rohde-christiansen

white's best chance seems to be with 6.Qh5, but i'm really not so convinced in this move. 6. Qh5 Qe7 7. d3 Nf6 8. Qh4 c6 9. Ba4 is supposed to be slightly better for white, but i'm not so sure that 8...c6 is the correct move in the first place. Bg5 is really white's only strong source of play at this point, so why not tend to that side of the board first with 8...0-0? not that it is the only option, but after 9. Bg5 h6 10. Bxf6 Qxf6 11. Qxf6 gxf6, white really has a hard time converting this practically forced end game into a win. computers analyze the position as a clear advantage for white, but they have a hard time pushing it through, because its hard for white to activate his rooks where he needs them to be active and take advantage of black's sloppy pawns. here is a little 40 in 10 game i just now made where the engine fails to bear out its assessment of the position:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. O-O Bc5 6. Qh5 Qe7 7. d3 Nf6 8. Qh4 O-O 9. Bg5 h6 10. Bxf6 Qxf6 11. Qxf6 gxf6 12. a3 c6 13. Bc4 Rd8 14. Nd2 d5 15. exd5 cxd5 16. Bb3 a5 17. Ba4 Be6 18. f4 Bf5 19. Nb3 Bb6 20. Rae1 Rac8 21. Rf2 Kf8 22. h3 h5 23. Rfe2 Bd7 24. Bxd7 Rxd7 25. Rc1 h4 26. Kf2 Re7 27. Rxe7 Kxe7 28. Nd2 Kd7 29. Kf3 Re8 30. Rb1 Re7 31. Kf2 Re6 32. Nf3 Rc6 33. Rc1 Bc7 34. g3 hxg3+ 35. Kxg3 Bd6 36. Kg4 Rb6 37. b3 Bxa3 38. Ra1 Bb4 39. Kf5 Re6 40. Nxd4 Re3 41. Ra4 b6 42. h4 Rh3 43. Kxf6 Rxh4 44. Ke5 Bd6+ 45. Kxd5 Rxf4 46. c3 Rg4 47. b4 Rg5+ 48. Kc4 f6 49. Ra2 Be7 50. bxa5 Rc5+ 51. Kb3 bxa5 52. Ne2 Rg5 53. d4 Rg2 54. c4 Bb4 55. c5 Kc6 56. Kc4 Rg4 57. Kd3 Kd5 58. Ra4 Rh4 59. Nc3+ Bxc3 60. Kxc3 Rh3+ 61. Kd2 Rg3 62. Ke2 f5 63. Rxa5 Kxd4 64. c6 Rc3 65. Rxf5 Rxc6 66. Rf4+ Kd5 67. Kd3 Rd6 68. Rd4+ Kc5 69. Rxd6 Kxd6 {Draw} 1/2-1/2
  
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