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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The North Sea Defence (Read 22938 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #27 - 12/31/15 at 08:58:04
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Magnus Carlsen's blog is still available, but the other three links given in this thread are all broken. Tells us a lesson about the modern media. It is a pity, in particular, that Rolf Martens' online debate of his ideas are gone (and yes, I've checked "waybackmachine").

In the following game, 7...Qd5 was already recommended by Martens and correctly assessed as equal. 10....Qg6 = was more precise. After Black misses 20...Nc5 (=), he gets into trouble.

  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #26 - 10/18/14 at 09:56:59
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Neil McDonald in his October 2014 Update:

Quote:
The North Sea Defence is a curious hybrid of the Modern and Alekhine Defence. What revitalises the system for Black is that after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Nf6 3.e5 Nh5 4.Be2 Black can play 4...d6! ignoring the threat to h5

Yes, and that's why 4...d6! was already given by Martens and strongly recommended ("!") and analyzed in my article in Schach-Report 10/1991, p. 31. By the way, this move is connected with another pleasant memory. I won with it against Mephisto Lyon 68030 at the Dortmund tournament, division D 1991. Hey kids, these were the days when board chess computers were still permitted to compete in tournaments!

According to the person who executed the moves for the computer on the board, none of my moves was predicted by the machine. Smiley
  
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TN
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #25 - 10/01/10 at 12:17:15
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A bit off-topic, but in Round 10 Carlsen played 5...Bb4 in the Main Line Advance Caro-Kann.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #24 - 10/01/10 at 09:53:06
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Nice to see one of Marten's ideas played on the top level, but it usually ends like it did, even though the idea looks reasonable. I'd guess that it's the lack of theory and practice that makes it hard to fine tune the play.

Btw, a strong local Northsea expert, suggested Qxd6!? instead, aiming for Nh5-f4 when appropriate. Maybe something for Gawain to take a look at, in next month's edition...
  
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linksspringer
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #23 - 10/01/10 at 08:49:43
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Viking wrote on 09/30/10 at 16:51:39:
Magnus on his game with Adams quoted from his blog (http://www.arcticsec.no/index.php?button=blog&main_image=35)
Quote:
Despite the unusual opening choice I was happy with my position entering the middle game. Becoming a bit too optimistic I played for a win but underestimated his attack and lost deservedly.


Exactly. Magnus came out of the opening with a very reasonable position. But because he lost I see comments on the internet like trash, junk, dodgy, rude to his teammates etc. Mildly annoying.  Wink
  
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Viking
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #22 - 09/30/10 at 16:51:39
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Magnus on his game with Adams quoted from his blog (http://www.arcticsec.no/index.php?button=blog&main_image=35)
Quote:
Despite the unusual opening choice I was happy with my position entering the middle game. Becoming a bit too optimistic I played for a win but underestimated his attack and lost deservedly.
  
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MartinC
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #21 - 09/28/10 at 09:16:29
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Clearly Smiley As I remember he came terribly close to losing to Adams in the London tournament last winter, so you'd think he'd take him half way seriously!

I guess its hard for him to get motivated when he's not really playing for anything beyond pride.
  
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Seth_Xoma
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #20 - 09/28/10 at 02:00:28
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Teenagers.  Roll Eyes Clearly Magnus is already bored with his 2800 rating!
  
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #19 - 09/27/10 at 19:39:29
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It seems Magnus just wants to play funchess, his play against Adams was just begging for problems and a loss. It seems, he doesn´t take his opponents seriously, maybe Garri should take a call with him.
  

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Viking
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #18 - 09/27/10 at 17:56:31
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Carlsen does have a very good score against Adams. Still Adams is a bit too strong to play cat and mouse...

Carlsen should leave the northsea for ICC blitz...
  
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TicklyTim
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #17 - 09/27/10 at 15:22:03
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Yes, North Sea not for casual swimmers.

I would be interested in Carlsens thought process in deciding to play this vs Adams.
Though I do think the opening in this game went ok for Black.
  
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #16 - 09/27/10 at 13:13:00
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Didn't work too well tho'.
Adams 1-0 Carlsen

Turned out nice again.

  
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TicklyTim
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #15 - 09/27/10 at 11:21:58
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... and now Carlsen plays it versus a 2700+!!
Maybe this opening has no refutation after all.
It certainly is a different way to go.
  
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #14 - 07/24/09 at 00:06:21
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Stefan Bücker has a longer article on Chesscafe.com about the North Sea defense: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss33.pdf
  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #13 - 07/23/09 at 23:57:40
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Tim Harding wrote about the defense on SOAK http://www.soak.com/topic/chess/article/tshow/15906/the+north+sea+defence+refute...

"THE NORTH SEA DEFENCE REFUTED?
Some years ago, Swedish analysts came up with a hybrid of the Modern and Alekhine's Defences that goes 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Nf6 3 e5 Nh5 4 Nf3 d6. Known as the North Sea Defence, it is still an almost unknown variation -- not mentioned in most theory books.

The defence took a big knock in the high-level postal game D.Stern-G.Hjorth, 1994, when White played 5 Bc4 Nc6 6 Ng5! e6 7 g4! Be7 (If7...Ng7 8 Qf3 Qe7 9 Bb5 Bd7 10 Ne4 when 10...Nxd4 or Nxe5 fails to 11 Nf6+ Kd8 12 Qxb7.) and now Stern played simply 8 Nf3! when the black knight gets stuck on the bad square g7.

GM Julian Hodgson and some others have tried to revive this defence by 5...d5. However, this means Black abandons any hope of quick pressure against the white centre.

- Tim Harding
"

  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #12 - 07/23/09 at 22:52:31
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Hi everyone! This is my first post here. I was gathering round as much material as I can find available online on the North Sea Defence. Apparently there was lots of interesting stuff posted by Martens himself on the Schackforum, but I can't access it. Do you know if it has been stored elsewhere and can be still accessed?. Thanks in advance!

PS Sorry for my English, not a native speaker  Embarrassed
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #11 - 06/27/05 at 12:30:31
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Thanks for this. Personally I'd far rather brave the 4 ...d6 lines than shuffle around with 4 ...Ng7, even though that might be playable by analogy with the Alekhine's.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #10 - 06/27/05 at 10:25:22
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Yes you're right Michael,

the guru responded thus:

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Nf6 3.e5 Nh5 4.Be2 d6 5.f4 c5 6.dxc5 Qa5+ 7.Nc3 dxe5 8.fxe5 Nc6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Be3 Rd8 11.Qc1 Bg7 12.0-0 0-0 13.h3 Bxf3 14.Bxf3 Ng3 15.Re1 Nf5 16.Bf2 Nfd4 17.Bxd4 Rxd4 18.Bxc6 bxc6=

as an example of how black's piece play against the weakened centre pawns should be run.

I think I will try to take a chess free week now, so I won't act as a forum go between for awhile... Besides, most of the lines given at the swedish forum wouldn't need any translation anyway, but here's a quick list of useful words:

vederläggning - refutation
skum - murky
konstig - strange
gardera - defend
kass - lousy
bondecentrum - pawn centre
damen - the queen
trevlig(t) / otrevlig(t) - nice / (the opposite of nice)
inte kollat - not checked

but if you know some english and german, it shouldn't be too hard to guess most of what's written...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #9 - 06/27/05 at 04:49:24
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In MNb's line with 7 ...de 8 fe, might 8 ...Nc6 be an improvement?
  
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #8 - 06/27/05 at 03:42:16
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Quote:
4... Ng7!? Seems too provocative, even for most Alekhine players!


Not really. I've played 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Ne4 4.Nce2 Nc5 5.d4 Ne6 6.f4 g6 7.Nf3 Ng7 a few times. I still haven't lost a game from this position. Perhaps it should be called the knight's tour variation.  Grin
  

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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #7 - 06/27/05 at 01:23:30
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According to latest NIC, russian team championship'05 saw Morozevich doing a knight fianchetto 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Nf6 3. e5 Nh5 4. Be2 Ng7!? (Burmakin-Morozevich). He managed to draw.

Seems too provocative, even for most Alekhine players!
  
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MNb
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #6 - 06/26/05 at 22:26:55
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Maybe I have missed it on the Swedish thread (178 posts! Unbelievable), but after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Sf6 3.e5 Sh5 4.Le2 d6 5.f4 c5! 6.dxc5 Da5+ 7.Nc3 looks better to me than 7.Bd2.
7.Nc3 dxc5 8.Nf3 Bh6 9.Ng5 might be critical.
7.Nc3 dxe5 8.fxe5 Qxc5 9.Qd5 Qb6 10.Bc4 e6 11.Qb5+ Nd7 12.Nf3 looks like a solid += to me.
TJ, you may translate this in Swedish, if you think these lines are worth it.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #5 - 06/26/05 at 17:35:23
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Quote:
Did I guess right that "dragomkastning" means "Zugumstellung"/"move order transposition"?


Quite right! Smiley

Generally speaking you're not missing too much from not knowing swedish, as the forum visitors often get out of line or order... Grin

Basically one guy, Mikael Johansson (no relative of mine btw), with about +2300 says he has a refutation but won't show it - sounds familiar from the dragon forum here,, doesn't it? Cheesy - but he offered to play a side bet match against Martens 'proving' his refutation, which was not accepted, as Martens is only interested in the teoretical side. This nonmatch lead to a lot of speculation and so forth...

At the moment they're mostly debating the Sicilian Left Hook variation in another thread, which is of course another Marten's invention:

1.e4 c5 2.Sf3 Sc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Sxd4 Sh6!?N - if I remember correctly, Rolf M. won the Swedish blitz championship largely thanks to this variation in 1986 or there abouts. As far as I know it has never been played in a longer tournament game, like so many of RM's many other ideas...

So far MJ claims 5.Bxh6 gxh6 6.c3 +/- while the rest of us seem to believe in = / =+ It will be interesting to see who wins, if any...  Cheesy  Undecided
  
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #4 - 06/26/05 at 17:13:06
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Quote:
Did I guess right that "dragomkastning" means "Zugumstellung"/"move order transposition"? 


Yes.
  

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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #3 - 06/26/05 at 13:33:22
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Sounds interesting!
I think I will even let my beloved dragon take a rest (!) and try this on the internet . I will tell you what my experiences were.
The thread in the Swedish forum seems to be very interesting, unfortunately I don't speak this language.
Did I guess right that "dragomkastning" means "Zugumstellung"/"move order transposition"?  Cheesy
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #2 - 06/26/05 at 03:34:50
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Funny you should ask, since Martens' latest entry at (http://www.schackforum.se/_forum/Visa?k_id=x18802&cb_do=visa&cb_id=2046&cb_page=...)

deals with this:

      After 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Sf6 3.e5 Sh5 4.Le2 d6 5.f4 c5!

if  6.dxc5 Da5+ 7.Ld2 Dxc5 8.exd6 Dxd6 9.Lxh5 gxh5 10.Dxh5 Dc6=. - Then someone suggested 10...Rb8 instead, using the bishop pair after 11.De2 Da6 12.Dxa6 Sxa6 13.Kf2 Lf5 15.c3 Sc5! + 0-0-0 'and black is better'.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, the whole site the link above goes to, has recently been cancelled as the webmaster got fed up with policing the forum...
« Last Edit: 07/17/05 at 03:07:22 by TalJechin »  
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MNb
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Re: The North Sea Defence
Reply #1 - 06/25/05 at 20:57:12
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A similar idea is known in the Semi-Accelerated Dragon: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5 Nh5!?
I have come to the conclusion, that simple development here with 7.Be2 gives White a solid edge, not with the intention to exchange on h5 as soon as possible.
Comparing with the North Sea Defence though (I love that name, the Netherlands have beautiful North Sea beaches, which alas are to crowdy on hot days), it seems as if the White knight on g1 in stead of d4 benefits Black.
What about 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Nf6 3.e5 Nh5 4.Be2 d6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.f3 Bf5 8.Be3 ?
  

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TalJechin
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The North Sea Defence
06/25/05 at 04:10:48
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Lately I've followed a thread at a swedish forum with Martens defending his (and Gerard Welling's)  invention, The North Sea Defence:

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Nf6!?

and now either

A) 3.Nc3 d5 4.e5 Nh5

or

B) 3.e5 Nh5 e.g. 4.Be2 d6!

It's also playable against 2.Nc3 e.g. 2...Nf6 3.e5 Nh5 4.Be2 Nf4! 5.Bf3 c5=

I suspect that A) with something like 5.g4 (or 5.Be2-f3) Ng7 6.Bg2 with an edge due to the k-side space advantage is the best white can do.

So, what do people here say, have you seen or heard of any refutation or have any ideas how to smash this interesting but annoying defence?
  
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