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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) KID unfashionable? (Read 7933 times)
Teyko
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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #22 - 07/07/05 at 09:04:13
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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #21 - 07/04/05 at 15:25:27
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Am I right in thinking that Radjabov is probably the top player to regularly and consistently play the KID against 1 d4 these days?  I've been very impressed with how he handles the French; his results seem pretty good with the KID--has anyone looked at his games?  Do you see him reviving its popularity?

Among the young super-GMs, Radjabov is quickly becoming my favorite...
  

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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #20 - 06/27/05 at 15:58:52
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Wow!  It's great to see so much emotion here!  Oh yeah, it's mostly anger at me. Embarrassed  Actually, I'm really glad to have stirred things up a bit, but now I realise I have to tone down and modify my comments.

Yes Topnotch, there are indeed several lines such as the Exchange KID and the Saemisch which favor Black in most endgames.  The fact that many KID players refuse to allow the Exchange variation has always baffled me.  Raymond Keene may actually have been right when he suggested that true KID players don't want a quiet endgame, even if it is in their favor if they can have a full-blooded middlegame fight instead.  The Exchange variation would be extremely popular for White if the endgames were any good.

The Saemisch is probably the most positional and strategically complex of all the KID openings.  But I don't know anything about it because I try to avoid anything interesting Grin.   

My comments were geared toward the Classical King's Indian where I have had an excellent record as White.  I have drew an IM in a winning position in standard chess (that still bothers me); scored 1.5/2 against a 2400+ Senior master (USCF); and have had numerous successes against other strong players, so please continue to support the KID!

Here's the game I won against the SM (our first encounter was a draw, which may explain some rather awkward manouevres on his part) way back in 1993:

E99 Mar Del Plata (9.Ne1)
1d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Nf3 e5 7.0-0 (I don't play the exchange variation either) Nc6 (yeah, 7...Na6 is a very interesting way to play for Black.  I hate it Wink) 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 (9...Ne8 is much more common now) 10.f3 f5 11.Be3 Nf6?! (from here on out is my original annotation without the aid of Fritzy computers)12.b4 f4 13.Bf2 g5 14.c5 Ng6 15.Rc1 Rf7 (so far, White is aiming for the queenside, and Black is preparing to blow White's king to smithereens, just as Topnotch and other KID players dream of.)  16.cd6 cd6 17.a4 Bf8  18.a5 Ne8 19.Nb5 h5 20.Na7 Bd7 21.Bb6 Qf6 22.Bb5 Bb5 23.Nb5 Be7 24.Rf2 Bd8 25.Bd8 Qd8 26.Rfc2 Rg7 27.Qe2 Nf8 28.Qf2 g4 29.Qb6 Qh4 30.Ne5 Ra5 31.Nf5 Rb6 32.Nh4 Rb4 33. Nd3 Ra4 34.Nf5 Rg5 35.Ne5 Ra5 36.fg4 Nf6? 37.Nf3 Rg4 38.Nh6 Kg7 39.Ng4 hg4 40.Rc7 Kh6 41.Nd2 Rb5 42.Rf7 N8d7 43.Rc7 Rb2 44.Rcd7! Nd7 45.Rd7 Rd2 46.Rb7 g3 47.hg3 fg3 48.Rb1??(Black had already decided he was lost, but now he had a chance to draw even though he was two passed pawns down.) Re2?? (48 Rd2! forces a draw!) 49.Rd1 re4 50.d6 Re8 51.d7 Rd8 52.Kf1 and Black finally resigned on move 64.

This isn't my best game ever, but it is certainly memorable.  It also shows that White can attack the Kingside too!  Beyond that, the endgame was very difficult for Black to hold, which is my most common experience in the KID.  Yes, I avoid the Saemisch, and the Exchange variations (usually). In the lines I play, as long as I'm not facing Dr. Nunn, I welcome Black's KID.  Come to think of it, if I ever were to face Dr. Nunn, I'd love to play him in the KID and then go over my mistakes with him afterwards.  What a lesson that would be!

  
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HgMan
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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #19 - 06/27/05 at 08:48:38
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I thought I answered these questions already.


Repetition is good for the learning process...   Wink

I think I was trying to redirect and follow up on your point about amateurs following top-level trends, which would suggest that there are probably fewer new converts to the KID (and I agree with TN's first post that this is a good thing for folks who continue to play it).  At the same time, Gallagher has recent produced two excellent new books on the KID, and there's no shortage of material still out there.  There has to be a market for these books, or else they wouldn't get published.  So does that mean there are still A LOT of players in their 20s and 30s for whom the KID was a first and only love, or are amateurs still turning to the KID, albeit in smaller numbers?  Are there still die hard KID adovcates at clubs the way there were ten years ago, or have they moved on?

Repetitive or not, it's good to see some activity on the KID forum.  I'll look for a theoretical question to maintain and improve the conversation...
  

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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #18 - 06/27/05 at 00:14:50
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One more thing: I was myself reluctant to start studying the KID because of the huge amount of theory in the classical variation. I think 7...Na6 is a good way to reduce the amount of time studying the KID. There's always the possibility to go back to 7...Nc6 once you're comfortable with the entire opening. There are also other choices in the classical which are playable.
  

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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #17 - 06/26/05 at 23:57:42
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TopNotch's post from 21:08 yesterday was excellent.

I think amateurs should choose openings that suit their style the best, not to follow top level players choices so much. If you want to play an opening against 1.d4 (and c4, Nf3 and maybe some more opening moves) which is dynamic and allows you to play for a win, KID is an excellent choice. It's not an easy opening, but studying it will be rewarding. Gallagher's "Play The King's Indian"
is a good starting point.

If you want something more solid, play 1...d5, but don't call the KID second rate.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #16 - 06/26/05 at 21:26:05
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Too much Slav talk here, this is a KID thread

Topper Grin
  

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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #15 - 06/26/05 at 21:16:57
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I have problems understanding Smyslov_Fan's post. To me, the Slav is not a rich opening. I have studied Sadler's and Burgess' books on it and played it for a while, but I gave it up because the games were too dry. The f5-break in the KID is one of the key concepts. Very easy to understand.



Hi, maybe a look at the games of Sakaev and Khalifman will change your mind! In fact, I think the f5 break as you mentioned in the KID, makes the KID slightly sterotypical compared to the Slav...

The Botvinnik and Anti-Moscow is as concrete and tactical as you can get in chess. Unlike the KID,  there is hardly any stereotypical "auto-pilot" moves and plans here. The main line open-slav (5. a4 Bf5 6. Ne5) also gives rise to complications in the Morozevich variations (e.g. 11... f6 and 11... g5), not to mention the slav bishop sac endgame is terribly difficult to master. As for the chebanenko, take a look at the chebanenko thread in the forum where you will find the most beautiful games by Aronian and Sakaev. The Slav isn't boring!  Smiley
  
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TopNotch
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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #14 - 06/26/05 at 20:59:42
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I thought I answered these questions already.

Top Grin
  

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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #13 - 06/26/05 at 20:51:28
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I don't remember who it was who stated that the King's Indian is riskier for Black than the King's Gambit is for White.  I think that once White understands Black's main strategic goals (which as Alias correctly pointed out is easy to do), then Black's game begins to look a bit unsound.


With all due respect, this is utter nonsense.  I don't doubt that the scrutiny the KID was put under over the past twenty years undoubtedly makes it a more difficult opening to pick up and adopt (the amount of theory is, admittedly, enormous), but this is not the same thing as it being refuted.  So let me ask again: is this a question of fashion, or maybe even playing style?  More and more players seem to be reverting to the Karpovian (or Kramnikian?) approach to solid equality with Black being sufficient.  And of course, that trend trickles down to the amateurs.  But I wonder how many current KID devotees among the amateur ranks weren't influenced by Kasparov and co. about ten years ago?
  

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TopNotch
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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #12 - 06/26/05 at 20:08:21
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The KID has not suddenly become strategically risky, it has always been so. Grin

The appeal of the KID is that the rewards often justify the strategical risk. As I said before the KID is not for everyone, it is not a half hearted defence.

In the KID Black is playing to take over the initiative from White and dictate the course of play. In this vein White will often decimate Black's entire Queenside only to get embarrasingly mated on the other side of the board. The saying what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul always comes to mind when I win the type of game I just described.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with defences such as the Caro and the like, but lets be honest, most of the games won by black in the Caro stems from White over reaching. In the KID however, black is out for blood, and in the past 10 years most of White's novelties revolve around the theme of not getting mated. Look up the game Peter Hein Nielsen - Vassilios Kotronias for a typical KID encounter in the Classical variation.

Smyslov_Fan's comment regarding KID endgames is just a Myth. There are many typical KID endgames that favor Black in many different lines of the Opening, one only needs to understand what to avoid and what to aim for. For example:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Nf3 e5 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 actually favors Black strategically, as he has a permanent outpost on d4 while White does not have one on d5.

Also in a topical line of the c5 Samisch it has been more or less established that if anything the endgames favor black, which in fact is the reason that the Samisch is not as popular as it once was, and those that still play it rarely bother with Be3 anymore.

1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 c5!

One other thing Smyslov_Fan, the KID is a Universal Opening System against Queenside Flank Openings, the Slav is not. I am sorry you do not appreciate the term Universal. Of course, as you rightly point out, there are also other Universal Opening Systems such as the Dutch, but this is a thread about the KID which is certainly not a second class Opening, and it still scores quite well in the right hands. I for one have no trouble at all scoring with it in tournament play.

Lastly Smyslov_Fan you should know that your namesake Vassily Smyslov was himself an ardent Kings Indian_Fan who won some Classic games with it against the then strongest player of the day Mikhail Botvinnik. In fact the KID has been a major weapon of the game's greatest players and World Champions for the past three decades.

To Inn2 the line 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. b4 does not avoid the KID at all, as black simply continues as normal and plays for either the e5 break or c5 break or both!!. Here is a trypical example of how black should play:

[Event "WICC qual Dubai 25'+10"]
[Site "FIDE.com"]
[Date "2002.03.01"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Juegel,Marcel"]
[Black "Isaev,Jamshed"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "E60"]
1.e3 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nf6 5.b4 e5 6.Bb2 0-0 7.Be2 exd4 8.Nxd4 c5 9.Nb5 Nc6 10.bxc5 dxc5 11.0-0 Be6 12.Nd2 Qe7 13.Qb3 a6 14.Nc3 b5 15.Bf3 bxc4 16.Qa4 Rab8 17.Rab1 Ne5 18.Be2 Nd3 19.Ba1 Qd7 20.Qxa6 Nb4 21.Qa4 Qxd2 22.Rfd1 Qc2 23.Rxb4 Qxd1+ 24.Nxd1 cxb4 25.Bd4 c3 26.Bd3 Rfc8 27.Bc2 Nd5 28.Bxg7 Kxg7 29.e4 Ra8 30.Qb5 Rcb8 31.Qc6 Nf6 32.e5 Nd7 33.Bb1 Rc8 34.Qb7 Rab8 35.Qa7 c2 36.Bxc2 Rxc2 37.f3 Rxa2 0-1

To Inn2 again, the statement that Black suffers from a lack of space is not entirely true. In many lines White has more space on the Queenside yes, but Black often has more on the Kingside to counter balance this and that is why he usually conducts his attack there. It is useful to understand that in blocked positions the direction of the opposing pawn chains often indicate on which side of the board you should conduct your attack.  

I would also like to remind Inn2 that it also possible for black to win with the Petroff or any defence for that matter, but in a must win situation I doubt someone would employ it, the same goes for the Caro. The ability and need to win with either color is one of the reasons why Karpov's tournament results started to slide around the same time that Kasparov's started to shine, and Karpov's era of draw with Black and win with White became no longer good enough to win tournaments.

White has no quiet way to a stable advantage against the KID that I know of. If you want to trouble KID players you have to burn some midnight oil just as black does, any half measures will bring White equality at best and disaster at worse. Before I forget, Petrosian did trouble KID players in his day with the system that now bears his name, but today this system is no longer a threat.

Quite frankly I do not think that there is any system, mainline or otherwise that gives Whie a clear advantage against the KID only an unclear game, and true KID players will be satisfied with this kind of position anyway.

If you want a quiet life best not play the KID, the QGD would be more appropriate.  

To Alias, its nice to have a kindred Spirit on board. Grin

To the rest, by all means continue to underrate and underestimate the KID, but at your own peril.

Toppy Grin
« Last Edit: 06/27/05 at 01:56:02 by TopNotch »  

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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #11 - 06/26/05 at 16:58:31
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I don't remember who it was who stated that the King's Indian is riskier for Black than the King's Gambit is for White.  I think that once White understands Black's main strategic goals (which as Alias correctly pointed out is easy to do), then Black's game begins to look a bit unsound.  Petrosian made the King's Indian look wobbly, and today's top players have made it difficult even for players such as Kasparov to gain sufficient counterplay to justify the risk.

Even the most ardent King's Indian defender will probably agree that if White can survive the middlegame in good shape, most King's Indian endings are lost (or at least very uncomfortable) for Black.  This is in stark contrast to most Sicilian lines in which Black hopes for a complex endgame.  This forces Black to push and often over-push in the KID middlegame.  Now that White has many known ways to navigate the KID middlegame safely, it has lost most of its lustre. 

By the way, I agree with TopNotch that there are numerous "systems" ( a term I prefer to "universal opening") for Black other than King's Indian setups.
  
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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #10 - 06/26/05 at 06:35:45
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Also I must correct you on another point, while White may adopt clever move orders to avoid the Grunfeld, there are no move order tricks to avoid the KID. Unless of course you open with 1.e4.  Grin

The KID is a universal opening sytem against all Queenside Flank openings, that is part of its appeal. White has no escape, nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

Top  Grin   


1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. b4 is a way for White to avoid the KID (or is that a reti?!), and aren't most English 1. c4 e5 lines in a way anti-KID? Anyhow the terminology confuses me. I havent seen the HB global games, but if Izoria can win with the caro-kann, surely it shows that one need not resort to doubled-edged openings like the KID in order to win tournaments. Perhaps this is why the KID is now unfashionable, too much work and not necessarily greater results.

By the way, the (semi-)slav is also a universal weapon, and that is partly why I am attracted to it. White has 1. c4 c6 2. e4, but that's just about all he has.  And isn't the Dutch universal too? The KID really isnt the only universal opening around.
  
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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #9 - 06/26/05 at 02:16:16
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I never understood why the KID became unfashionable. Looking at the Bayonett attack I don't see any major problems for black.

I have problems understanding Smyslov_Fan's post. To me, the Slav is not a rich opening. I have studied Sadler's and Burgess' books on it and played it for a while, but I gave it up because the games were too dry. The f5-break in the KID is one of the key concepts. Very easy to understand.

TopNotch's posts seems more to the point.
  

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Re: KID unfashionable?
Reply #8 - 06/26/05 at 01:18:32
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I've always loved the White side of the King's Indian. Even when I was losing to it regularly (because I didn't get the power of Black's ...f5), I felt that I was upholding the side of TRUTH and BEAUTY.  I really doubt that the King's Indian's fall out of favor is just a matter of fashion. 

White's main strategies have been disseminated all the way down to the club level while even GMs who venture the KID as Black against mere mortals have difficulty scoring.   I think the KID is in the process of being relegated to a sort of second-class status alongside the QGD Tarrasch and other once-respectable lines.  We will see it played occasionally, but Black will probably have to find something else.

BTW, people who think the Slav is just solid haven't studied it very much.  The Slav is one of the richest openings around!  But then, I was playing the Slav as Black before it was popular.  How I hate fashion!
  
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