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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) beating the petroff (Read 25520 times)
Frankly
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #41 - 08/04/05 at 04:47:54
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Top,

I fed the game to Fritz for analysis, and had all the errors pointed out to me, which was of course very useful, but the first 5 and a half moves (if I remember correctly - don't have it to hand now) were said to be book moves; hence my general query into the line. I also know that playing my King to g8 was pretty awful. 

We played 1. e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nxf7 Kxf7 5. Bc4+ d5 6. exd5 Qe7+ 7.Be2.....

I am not sure the sequelae would assist in the discussion, save to demonstrate our proclivity towards the wrong moves, but am happy to oblige for what it may be worth. How do I post the Fritz analysis?
  
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MNb
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #40 - 08/03/05 at 22:10:22
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After 5.d4 the counterstroke c5 is supposed to be strong. And Topalov played 5.Nc3.
That is about everything I know about the Cochrane Gambit.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TopNotch
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #39 - 08/03/05 at 19:51:23
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Frankly, stats in and of themselves mean nothing. 

The stats must be analyzed properly to determine their true value. 

If favorable stats were the end all then Fischer, Kasparov and Anand would have and would be playing the Blackmar Diemer Gambit.
 
Somehow I do not think that discussing the Pro's and Con's of sacking a piece for a mobile pawn centre will help you. Once again if you want useful help post the game.

Topster Grin
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #38 - 08/03/05 at 19:03:26
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Actually I believe the best variation for White, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nxf7 Kxf7, is supposed to be 5.d4.  I didn't know that there was a refutation of this, not that I'm terribly surprised.  Last time I looked at it (which was quite awhile ago) the best I'd seen was a dynamic equality.  What's the refutation?  Or is it a tournament secret?
  
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Frankly
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #37 - 08/03/05 at 06:32:01
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Well, Alumbrado, I hear what you are saying, but the sac performs really well statistically. That was what surprised and intrigued me. Chesslab.com has 60% White wins for the 1485-1990 period and 52% White wins for the 1991+ period, whereas chessgames.com's opening explorer has 61.5% (of 65 games only).

This, in anybody's language, is good stats. Better than the KG any day. And, given the sharpness of the move, the wins and losses will be more a function of the opening than in other cases (for example, the apparently poor recent results for Black with playing d5 against the early Nc3 did not seem to me, on looking at some of the games, to be attributable to the opening in many cases).

Because there are so many games where this variation is played, I cannot make my own assessment of the reasons for the White or Black wins after the sac.

Furthermore, a chap who is going to go Nxf7 is surely gonna have looked at these lines a bit before he does something like that. The few games I have managed to follow up to see a pattern seem to suggest that Black does okay if he quickly gets his pieces out from behind the King, particularly if he castles artificially; in some of the Black wins Black found it necessary or useful even to give back a piece to open White up too.

Photophore, since I do not like playing back to f6 with the knight, I would prefer not to go down that route.

Alumbrado - how do you play it? Say after Bc4+ etc.
« Last Edit: 08/03/05 at 09:46:02 by Frankly »  
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alumbrado
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #36 - 08/03/05 at 03:56:19
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If we are still talking about the Kotronias/Tzerminiados book, it definitely does NOT cover 4.Nxf7 - it is a repertoire book for White based around the main line with 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 Be7 7.0-0 Nc6 8.c4!?

If you want coverage from Black's point of view of 4.Nxf7, the places to look are Raetsky and Chetverik's book for Everyman, or the Gambit book by Lasha Janjgava.
  

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chessy
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #35 - 08/03/05 at 03:36:12
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@Franklz:

I havent bought the book yet. But to my knowledge the book doesnt deal with 4.Nxf7

As it is not played so often there might still be a need for indepentend analysis. Do you have allready feed Fritz with the Topolov-Kramnik 1999 game?

II think if a Wihte player chooses this line he could be inspirted by this game. He might have even feed fritz with it and has some where a deviation.

So my advice to you is do the same. If you can finde an deviation from this game with some nice tactical trapps, you might have a good weapon against the most player.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #34 - 08/03/05 at 03:34:10
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I have taken to playing the Petroff a bit recently and I have to say I'm always delighted when White tries 4.Nxf7?! (I want to give it a straight question mark).  It is not one of those gambits where the 'defending' side has to find accurate moves to survive; rather White has to find some very good moves just to keep his initiative from fading away altogether.

Frankly, if White is going to play speculative gambits, he should avoid the Petroff altogether and play the King's Gambit or even the Danish Gambit.  Both offer more reliable compensation than this.
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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TopNotch
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #33 - 08/02/05 at 21:44:00
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Quite 'Frankly', post the game and then we would be better able to help you.  Wink

Tops Grin

Postscript: Ohh wait a minute, this is a thread about beating the petroff not saving it, so this could present a conflict.  Undecided
  

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Frankly
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #32 - 08/02/05 at 18:16:05
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Does the book deal with 4. Nxf7? (!?)

I recently encountered this in an ICC game, and survived with remarkable difficulty, both players going wrong at various points, as Fritz was kind enough to point out in subsequent analysis. I then ran the line on chesslab.com and chessgames.com and found very good results for White.

Apropos this debate about what Petroff-players may be comfortable with, I am quite sure the majority of them will find Nxf7 uncomfortable. I certainly did. And it was disconcerting to see such high success rates achieved so often, which indicates that it's not just a question of being familiar with the sac line and then it's a walk in the park. Bear in mind that White gets 2 pawns for the knight too. 

It looks as if one should try for artificial castling (I bunglingly locked my rook in with my King and almost got mated by a lone Bishop).

One thing is for sure - it turns 'boring' Petroff into sharp hypertension.

Elders and betters - ideas here?
  
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MNb
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #31 - 07/30/05 at 20:15:21
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"that probably suits him much less ( since it's less frequent as closed defence , it's not likely to suppose he awaited it"
"At worst , he may accept to lose some games"
This is questionable.
  

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photophore
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #30 - 07/30/05 at 10:22:02
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What is questionable?
That I don't like Petroff ? I know myself
That he likes Petroff ? why would he play it if he does not like it ?
All this is merely Common sense
And if you engage in Petroff main line , then you think it will turn better for you : IT'S GAMBLING!!
  
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MNb
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #29 - 07/28/05 at 20:09:43
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It is gambling, because the whole argument is based on questionable assumptions.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #28 - 07/28/05 at 18:04:23
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I maintain it's not gambling
Petroff has a very special place among open games , and there are several deviations that are surely sound , but which have a structure quite different of the main line:
First you have 3 Nc3 , that leads , either to a 4 knights ,
or to a reversed Ruy Lopez ( Berlin defence )
Surely the Petroff player is prepared for these deviations
But does he like them?
Anyway , it can't be worse than enter the main line
It's exactly as the Ruy Lopez : a Bb5 player will not give up his favourite opening because the 10% open defence
At worst , he may accept to lose some games , if he has a good % against closed : but the games he loses , YOU win them
Why enter the system that is familiar to him?
This is not gambling , just a way of bettering your chances
  
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Re: beating the petroff
Reply #27 - 07/28/05 at 16:45:52
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Quote:
"that probably suits him much less"
I agree with Markovich, that this kind of argument is rather shaky. If someone does not feel comfortable with the Open Ruy Lopez, one might argue, that he will not play 3.Bb5 at all. So it remains guessing.
Markovich stated it somewhere else: you should in the first place strive for positions you like, especially against stronger opponents. Against weaker opponents there is a lot to say to strive for tranquillity and rely on superior technique.
Chess is not like gambling.

Yes it often is like gambling like with poker or blackjack. The way you play (moving quick, looking confident, choosing dull or entirely open positions) is often as important as the moves themselves, especially when you're about equal strength. So it is entirely justified to play a variation you think your opponent will not like. Even if that is not the case you will be more confident behind the board, then if you think he likes or knows the variation, so you will probably play better moves. Just look at what Fischer did to Spassky, almost every game he played something different, which made Spassky insecure during the game as he had to guess what Fischer had prepared.

That being said the Nc3 variation is probably not my cup of tea.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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