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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Move order in QGD Ex Variation (Read 8441 times)
Dji
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #25 - 06/22/07 at 10:50:38
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/20/07 at 15:25:42:
Dji,

I have no idea what you mean.  Could you please explain what you meant by "+1"?


it mean i'm agree with cma6
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #24 - 06/20/07 at 15:25:42
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Dji,

I have no idea what you mean.  Could you please explain what you meant by "+1"?
  
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #23 - 06/16/07 at 11:51:42
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[quote author=cma6 link=1122021033/15#22 date=1181616101


Why commit with 3 Nf3? If you like the Exchange QGD, then play 3 Nc3, Nf6; 4 cxd to limit Black's choices and aim for Nge2 with great flexibility.
If 3...Be7; then 4 cxd, exd; 5 Bf4 which is another very respectable Exchange Var. for White.
[/quote]


+1
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #22 - 06/12/07 at 02:41:41
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[quote author=Max link=1122021033/0#0 date=1122003032]I like to play exchange variation in queen's gambit, but sometime i have to face 1.d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. nf3 nf6 4. cd5 n:d5.
What is the best plan now for white?

And, above all, when is good for white to exchange? on 3. or on 4. move?


Why commit with 3 Nf3? If you like the Exchange QGD, then play 3 Nc3, Nf6; 4 cxd to limit Black's choices and aim for Nge2 with great flexibility.
If 3...Be7; then 4 cxd, exd; 5 Bf4 which is another very respectable Exchange Var. for White.
  
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castlerock
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #21 - 08/24/05 at 04:40:17
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Quote:
You're pretty much right, except that depending on how early Black plays Bf5, White may have to face some sort of Baltic Defense which may be difficult to face. 


Yes, Baltic and a skewed version of Slow Slav with Bf5 crossed my mind while posting. But I thought mentioning them may not serve the intended purpose.
Smiley
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #20 - 08/24/05 at 01:53:58
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Castlerock,

You're pretty much right, except that depending on how early Black plays Bf5, White may have to face some sort of Baltic Defense which may be difficult to face.  (See the thread on the Baltic for some ideas for White.)

Although I play Exchange variations with and without Nf3, I prefer to play it without.  Even though Kasparov scored numerous successes with Nge2 instead of Nf3, it continues to surprise my opponents.  Of course, I also play other systems than the Exchange to keep things fresh.
  
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castlerock
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #19 - 08/24/05 at 00:23:44
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Quote:
Yes, you are right. I think is better to exchange from 4th move, in fact in my last games i played 3. nf3 nf6 4. cd.



If you are playing, 3.Nf3 anyway, for 3...Nf6 I suggest you play 4.Bg5 to increase pressure on d5, 5.Nc3 for the same reason and 6.cxd5. Earlier ...Bf5 can be met by Qb3.
  

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Max
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #18 - 08/23/05 at 07:16:32
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Quote:
Hi Max, to your second question....

I would not  exchange to early, especially not in the 3ed move. Black get many good extra options here. For instance 1.)d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3cd ed 4. ......c6 5........Bd6 6......Ne7, or stright 5....Bf5.


Yes, you are right. I think is better to exchange from 4th move, in fact in my last games i played 3. nf3 nf6 4. cd.

  
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #17 - 08/12/05 at 07:21:55
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Hi Max, to your second question....

I would not  exchange to early, especially not in the 3ed move. Black get many good extra options here. For instance 1.)d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3cd ed 4. ......c6 5........Bd6 6......Ne7, or stright 5....Bf5.
  
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #16 - 07/30/05 at 02:56:09
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Quote:
Short n Sweet

Top  Grin


I hope sweet above all Wink.
Ok, seriously....My problem was above all to play with a d4-e4 center, because in this way i have to play in a more dynamic way, and i'm not so able to do it. So i was finding a way to avoid that variation. Of course for all the players maybe playing with such center is a dream, but not for me Embarrassed (i'm not so strong).
My friend joked me for 10 minutes Undecided, and after he showed me a victory of Keres on Fine (Ostenda 1937) with the correct strategy.

Thanks

Bye Smiley
  
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #15 - 07/29/05 at 20:41:18
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Short n Sweet

Top  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #14 - 07/29/05 at 18:52:16
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First of all, thanks for all your answers. I Studied the positions after cd4 N:d4 with a 2000 points friend of mine and finally i understood that positions rising after are nothing for black.

Bye
  
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castlerock
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #13 - 07/26/05 at 00:41:10
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6.e3 stops 6...Bf5 because of 7.Qb3 forking d5 and b7 pawns. But, doesn't it encourage lasker manouver with ...Ne4? I don't have a board or database near me and it's just my impression reading my post.
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #12 - 07/23/05 at 23:30:22
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I'd rather play an early c6 followed by Bf5 than 7...Nbd7 and voluntarily shut my queen's bishop in. But your move order is interesting, I have not considered it before. If Black does not want to play some Slav Defense nor some Bb4 line, only 4...Be7 is left and after 5.cxd5 capturing with Nxd5 looks suspicious again. So 5...exd5 and the position after 6.Nc3 is well known - c6 is possible again:
a) 7.e3 Bf5 is equal.
b) 7.Qc2 g6 is similar to the 6.Bf4 line I mentioned in my previous post. It is not clear to me, how White can take benefit of having the bishop on g5.
What intrigues me, is if White can play more precisely with 6.e3 first. The examples I have found, were not very clear to me.
  

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castlerock
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #11 - 07/23/05 at 02:13:42
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Yes, MNb. My bad. After Smyslov_Fan's and MNb's posts I just want to make one point.  Early c6, particularly after white commits to Nf3 is not a great idea, imho, ...Bf5 not withstanding. True, its the only idea semi-slavers have but a regular QGD player will be better off without moving the c pawn till white commits to 0-0.

The idea is with c6 and if white plays 0-0-0, black has to reach c5 in two moves. After 3.Nf3 most critical move order is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Nc3 0-0 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Re8 9.0-0 Nf8 and only then c6. Any comments?
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #10 - 07/22/05 at 21:22:35
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Smyslov_Fan seems to be the only one to have read Max' initial post correctly. I must admit, that I had to read it three times too.  Cheesy

1.d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. nf3 nf6 4. cd5 n:d5.
And here, without a board in front of me, I assumed that 5.e4 must be good.
I am flattered, that Castlerock wants to name an opening after me, especially a gambit, but alas - it looks likes 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e4 deserves the name Bad reading by Castlerock pseudo BDG. Grin

I do not think move order is just a matter of taste. There are a few problems for White:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.cxd5?! exd5 4.Nc3 c6! and Black has no problem developing the queen's bishop to f5.
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nc3 c6
a) 6.Bg5 Bf5 is equal.
b) 6.Bf4 (slightly more ambitious) c6 (Tarrasch fans: c5!?) 7.Qc2 g6 8.e3 Bf5 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Nbd7 and Black must only castle after White's castling, but has very good prospects of equality then.

Three better move orders are:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bf4!?
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 or 6.Qc2!?
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.cxd5 exd5.
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #9 - 07/22/05 at 16:28:21
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I need to make a correction to my previous note.  In the line I gave, 10.Ba3 drops at least a pawn for rather dubious compensation after 10...a6.  Instead, 10.e5 Nd5 11.Qc2 looks very tempting since 11...Ne5? fails to 12.de5 Bb5 exf6 and Black doesn't have enough compensation to justify the sacrifice.
  
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #8 - 07/22/05 at 16:09:42
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This thread was started with Max asking:

Quote:
1.d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. nf3 nf6 4. cd5 n:d5.
What is the best plan now for white?


MNb will be glad to hear that I agree completely with him.  this will turn out to be a Marshall variation that is just bad for Black.  Since Black doesn't have 5...NxNc3 (there is no Night there yet), he's going to have to retreat the N and white gets a big center, a lead in development, and an automatic attack.  Not bad, eh?

There is no sacking of the e-pawn in this line, as CastleRock suggested because the Nf6 has moved to d5!!  This isn't a Tarrasch, or even a semi-tarrach, it's just a Trash. Smiley

By the way, White should just continue his normal development after 5...Nf6 with 6.Nc3.  Here, 6...Bb4 is just a mistake after 7.Qa4+! Nc6 8.Bb5! Bxc3 (forced) 9.bxc3 Bd7 and now 10.Ba3 keeps Black from castling.

This analysis is my own after about 5 minutes thought but even if there are improvements to be made, White clearly has a tremendous edge.  Whether it's theoretically winning for White or not, I would love my chances against anyone within 200 rating points of myself.

By the way, I agree with CastleRock that making the exchange on move 3 or 4 is purely a matter of taste; which openings you want to eliminate from Black's choices dictates your decision.
  
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #7 - 07/22/05 at 10:37:11
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I like 3. nf3 nf6 move order because in this way i can avoid a lot of pin variations (nothing of dramatic, but it's only a matter of taste, in fact i don't like to permit nimzo).
Now 4.cd5 n:d5 5.e4  i think it's good, after 5...nf6 6.nc3 or 6.bg5. My problem is that i don't play very well with a mobile center like d4-e4 configuration. I mean, if now i play e4-e5, knight has a good square in d5. If i don't push and continue my developt with normal moves, the two paws can be very weak, and so i have to be very careful. So, what is the best plan with this configuration? ???

Another question Wink

When it's better to exchange? On third move (cd5 ed5)? On 4th like above? Or on 5th after 3. nf3 nf6 4.bg5 be7 or bb4+ ?

I know that it's only a matter of taste, but if you are QGD players, please give me any suggestion.

Thanks

Bye

  
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #6 - 07/22/05 at 07:49:36
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I gather MnB's talking about 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 Nxd5 5. e4, which is likely to lead to a semi tarrasch.
  
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #5 - 07/22/05 at 07:11:23
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I agree. Semi Tarrasch is black choice and I thought ...c5 is a pre-requisite to play semi-tarrasch.

We were, I thought (may be I am wrong), talking about the move order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 and 5.e4.

Perhaps we were talking about two different things.
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #4 - 07/22/05 at 06:36:43
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Maybe i'm just too sleepy now, and i really should go to bed. But I have no idea what Castlerock is talking about.  ???

There is no way White can avoid going into semi-tarrasch lines.

  
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castlerock
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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #3 - 07/22/05 at 05:59:02
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Do you have any analysis up your slieve? 5.e4 just drops a pawn in 3.Nf3 move order, unless it is "MNb variation of bad BDG"! lol. In 3.Nc3 move order white will go out of the way to oblige black by exchanging 2 sets of minor pieces at the cost of his own development.
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #2 - 07/22/05 at 05:42:54
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Isn't 5.e4 just better for White?
  

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Re: Move order in QGD Ex Variation
Reply #1 - 07/22/05 at 04:34:25
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You may have just opened a can of worm Wink

Move order issue depends on what your whole repertoire is. If you permit Nimzo then 3.Nc3 4.Bg5 and 5.cxd5 is the best move order. You don't commit on Nf3 and you don't have to commit on king side castling.

However, if you prefer to avoid Nimzo, Ragozin and Cambridge-Spring, 3.Nf3 move order is okay. While 4...Nxd5 is not particularly earth shattering for white (You can continue the normal development and you will at times get very favourable c3+d4 Isolated pawn couple and King side attack to boot) 4.Bg5 is required before taking the d5 pawn. Bg5 puts pressure on black's d5 square and your problem of 4...Nxe5 is eliminated.
  

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Move order in QGD Ex Variation
07/22/05 at 03:30:32
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I like to play exchange variation in queen's gambit, but sometime i have to face 1.d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. nf3 nf6 4. cd5 n:d5.
What is the best plan now for white?

And, above all, when is good for white to exchange? on 3. or on 4. move?

bye
  
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