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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line (Read 64680 times)
parisestmagique
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #107 - 04/10/08 at 09:48:39
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The move Rad8 after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6
bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Nf4 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7
23.Rhd1 Qxf2! 24.Rxf2 Tad8 (instead of Nd4) looks ok for Black with an unclear endgame. Any improvement for either side guys ?
If this line is ok for Black, Edward Dearing have to change his page 174 of his excellent "Play the Sicilian Dragon" if ( i hope so) he does a second edition. he says "19... Nf4 is also bad for Black 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7 23.Rhd1 Rad8?! (or Qa6!? Psakhis but white is better) 24.QxQ! axQ 25.Be7! White is clearly better"
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #106 - 04/10/08 at 03:35:01
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You don't have to play b3. No one forces you to. I have to say that I'm a little bit offended by the hostility of your posts. If I offended you in any way, I apologize, I didn't mean to get you so worked up over a silly line in the Dragon. Anyway, Black's winning chances lie in the fact that he's up an exchange and White has to show something for it. White's king isn't fantastic either, especially after ...a3. What is kind of putting me off is that you post some hasty computer analysis, don't check it or put any thought into it at all, and then claim White's winning. Here's another Black resource:

33. Rg1 Qd4 34. Qg3 Rg8! 35. a3 c4 36. Be7 Qe3! intending ...Qb3 and ...Rd1+, with a perpetual. It's equal again. It's necessary to analyze the positions yourself first. For instance, it didn't take me more than an hour to find the nice 27...e4! and 30...Qd3! idea that draws easily in the 26. Nxc5 line, but my computer will never find this idea. My computer absolutely hates 25...f5! as well, but it's a fine move as well. The last point is that the vast majority of this analysis means nothing, since even against GM's, we'll never make it this far. Smiley Thanks for the interesting challengers, looking forward to more.

Tony
  
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gewgaw
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #105 - 04/09/08 at 23:30:53
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to Tony:
after 32. ... a5. Why the hell should I play 33. b3? In order to give you counterplay? Of course I still play 33.Rg1 to attack the black king! The endgame after 39.Qg5 is won sooner or later, there is no need to show a clean win, but the mainmotive - White`s king is by far safer than the black one - is quite obvious in my given lines.


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8
19. Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24. Red1 c5 25.c4 f5 26. Nxc5 (26. gxf6 Bh6 27. Kb1 Bxd2 28. Rxd2 Qa6 29. Qg3 Kf7 30. Qxe5 Qxc4 31. Rd1 Re8 32. Ka1 a5 33. Rg1 Qd4 34. Qg3 Nf8 35. a3 Rxe4 36. Bxf8 Kxf8 37. fxe4 Rb7 38. Rb1 Qxe4 39. Qg5 (39. Qd6+ Kf7 40. Rd1 Qg2 41. Qe5 Qf3 42. Re1 Qc6 43. Kb1) 39... Kf7 40. Qh6 Kxf6 41. Qf8+ Ke6 42. Rf1 Re7 43. Qc8+ Kd6 (
43... Kd5 44. Qa8+ Kd6 45. Rd1+ Kc7 46. Rd5 Qe1+ 47. Ka2 Qe6 48. Qa7+ Kc6 49.Qxc5+ Kb7 50. Qb5+ Qb6 51. Qd3 Re3 52. Qc4 Qe6 53. Qb5+ Kc7 54. Qxa5+ Kb8) 44.Rd1+ Ke5 45. Qa6 Re6 46. Qxa5 Kf6 47. Qxc5 Re7 48. Rd4) 26... Nxc5 27. Bxc5 Rxd2 (27... e4 28. Rxd7 Rxd7 29. Rxd7 Qxd7 30. fxe4 Qd3 31. exf5 Qxc4+) 28. Rxd2 Rxd2 29. Qxd2 Qxf3 30. Qd5+ Qxd5 31. cxd5

Even if you find another improvement, were are black`s winning chances, where are the doubleedged positions with play for both sides?
Black´s play consists to 90% in finding the only move, this is more than boring, it´s obvious suffering.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #104 - 04/09/08 at 23:26:13
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I think both of parisestmagique's ideas look very promising for White (unfortunately).

(1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2)

A. 19...Qb7 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Nf6+! isn't totally clear to me but White seems to be the one in charge.  A better try might be 22...Qb6!?.

B. 19...Nf4 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7 23. Rhd1 Qxf2 24.Rxf2 Nd4 25.Bc5! seems very good for White although I hope someone can find some resources.  An alternative in this line that has been played a few times is 21...Qa5 and, at least for now (!) appears to be the best try.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #103 - 04/09/08 at 17:47:08
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Junior gives 32...a5! as an improvement. It's line goes:

32...a5! 33. b3 Qe2 (now I suppose we see Black has improved on the earlier line by gewgaw, as the b3/a5 insertion has to favor Black) 34. Qd5 a4! 35. bxa4 Rb8! =

I also tried 33. f4 Ng7! 34. Ng5+ Kg8 36. f7+ Rxf7 37. b3 Rxe5 38. bxc4 Re2 39. Nxf7 Kxf7 40. Bxc5 Nf5 41. Bb6 Nxh4 42. c5 Rc2 43. Rd7 Ke6 =

Conclusion: 9. 0-0-0 still does not bust the Dragon. Smiley

EDIT: 33. f4? Nc7! -+ (It takes the d5 square away from the king, thus stopping the 37. b3 idea as in the previous line, since 37. b3 Qc2 38. Qd5 is not possible) 34. Ng5+ Kg8 35. f7+ Rxf7 36. Nxf7 Rxe5 37. Nxe5 Qc2 38. Rg1 Ne6 -+

Conclusion #2 - White needs to be just as careful as Black!
  
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gewgaw
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #102 - 04/09/08 at 13:35:14
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24. Red1 c5 25. c4 f5 26. gxf6 Bh6 27. Kb1 Bxd2 28. Rxd2 Qa6 29. Qg3 (29. Bxe5 Qxc4 30. Nd6 Qa6
31. Qg1 g5 32. Qg3 Qf1+ 33. Kc2 Rxd6 34. Bxd6 Qc4+ =) 29... Kf7 (29... Nf4 30. Bxe5 Qxc4 (30... Rxd2 31. Nxd2 Rxd2 32. Bxf4 +-) 31. Bxf4 Qf1+ 32. Kc2 Qc4+ 33. Nc3 Rxd2+ 34. Bxd2 Qd3+ 35. Kb3 Rd6 36. a4 Rxf6 37. Bc1 Rb6+ 38. Ka2) 30. Qxe5 Qxc4 31. Rd1 Re8 32. Ka1 Qe2 33. Qd5 (33. Rg1 Nd4 34. Qd5+ (34.Ng5+ Kg8 35. Qd5+ Kh8 36. a3 Nc2+ 37. Ka2 Re3 38. Nf7+ Rxf7 39. Qxf7 Rxa3+ 40.
bxa3 Ne1+ =) 34... Re6 35. a3 Qe3 36. Rd1) 33... Rb8 34. b3 Rb4 35. Kb1 Rxe4 36. fxe4 Qf3 37. e5 Qxd5 38. Rxd5 g5 +/-

Conclusion:
As usual some really nice rescues by black, but white is pressing all the time. Black has to find nearly all the time the only move, white can choose.

  

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Swiss_Dragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #101 - 04/09/08 at 13:09:43
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Why is it over? 28...Qa6 and it's your turn!
  
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gewgaw
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #100 - 04/09/08 at 11:57:36
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Sorry, I can`t share this enthusiasm after 24. ...c5 (teyko) 25.c4 f5?!
White simply plays 26. gxf6 Bh6 27. Kb1 Bxd2 28. Rxd2 and it`s over.


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red819.Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24. Red1 c5 25. c4 f5 26. gxf6 Bh6 27. Kb1 Bxd2 28. Rxd2

After 10 years of suffering with the dragon I accepted the unpleasent truth -  the dragon isn´t sound! I switched to the Taimanov-System due to Semkov`s excellent book "The safest sicilian". My rating is rising, my time for preparation is marginal (restroom  Wink ) and I get a chance to equalize or get the edge in the opening. Even if the dragon were playable, my ROI in timeeffort[  Wink ] would be better with the Taimanov.
Here are my hatelines:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be2 Bg7 7. O-O O-O 8. Nb3 Nc6 9. Re1 Be6 10. Bf1

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 g6 6.g3 Nc6 7.Bg2 Nxd4 8.Qxd4 Bg7 9.a4 0-0 10.a5

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5

A Dragon player has to be prepared for any kind of opening play from calm to razor blade positions. Every line above has more than a drop of venom, and more important, white can specialize in one "sideline", so he has a good chance to know the latest games and to know the theory better than the self-appointed dragon expert.

I hope it doesn`t sound too frustrated (I´m not!), I just wanted to tell you the truth. Now you can take either the red pill or the blue pill.
  

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parisestmagique
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #99 - 04/09/08 at 08:51:25
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Unfortunatly for me (a quiet new Dragon adept) i like very much White in theese endings after : 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Nf4 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Rxd8 Rxd8 22.Rd2 Rd7 23. Rhd1 Qxf2 24. Rxf2 Nd4 25.Bc5! for exemple : Rad8 26.Rdd2 a6 27.c3 Nf5 28.RxR RxR 29.Rh2 Rd3 30.Rh3 Bf8 31.Nf6+ Kg7 32.Bb6 ... but is it not normal if we look at the position after move 25 ? White has a better pawn structure, more active pieces, etc. This is a very important theorical ending because i think Black is struggling in the other line 19... Qb7 for exemple 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.BxB NxB 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Nf6+!? BxN 24.gxf Rad8 25.Bxe5 ...
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #98 - 04/08/08 at 23:44:44
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bragesjo wrote on 04/08/08 at 13:14:38:
Glenn Snow wrote on 04/08/08 at 00:28:51:
FightingDragon wrote on 03/20/08 at 09:00:13:
dragonmaster wrote on 03/19/08 at 20:45:29:
2. Why not exchange rooks immediately instead of 19..Qb7? I.e.  19..Nf4 20. Bxe6 Nxe6 as the recommended 21. Rxd8 Rxd8 22. Rd1 fails on 22..Rxd1 23. Kxd1 Qd8!! (TN instead of 23...Qa5?) 24. Kc1 Qd5! =+


I have also discovered this 23. ... Qd8!, that's why I think that black has no real problems in the 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 line.
Of course it is nice to have this as a "fallback" option and a sharper line to play for a win!  Wink


Dearing in his excellent Play the Sicilian Dragon gives 19...Nf4 as bad due to 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 (instead of 21.Rxd8) 21...Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7 23.Rhd1 Rad8?!, and here he notes that Psakhis has recommended 23...Qa6!? as an improvement but that he still favors White.  I haven't looked at this myself and I hope I have the right position.


The position is right but I (me and Rybka) think that 23 .. Qxf2 followed by Nd4 seems to be equal.


I think equal is probably a fair assessment as long as the endgame after
(1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Nf4 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7 22.Rd2 Rd7 23. Rhd1)
23...Qxf2 24. Rxf2 Nd4 25. f4 (25. Bc5!?) 25... exf4 26. Bxf4 Rad8 27. Rfd2 Ne2+ 28. Kb1 Rxd2 29. Rxd2 Rxd2 30. Bxd2 Be5 31. Be1!? is OK for Black.  I'm guessing that it is but I'd be interested in others assessments on this. (31. Be3 can be answered by 31…Bd4 or maybe Black can keep the game alive more with 31… Ng3!?)
« Last Edit: 04/09/08 at 22:59:43 by Glenn Snow »  
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #97 - 04/08/08 at 13:14:38
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Glenn Snow wrote on 04/08/08 at 00:28:51:
FightingDragon wrote on 03/20/08 at 09:00:13:
dragonmaster wrote on 03/19/08 at 20:45:29:
2. Why not exchange rooks immediately instead of 19..Qb7? I.e.  19..Nf4 20. Bxe6 Nxe6 as the recommended 21. Rxd8 Rxd8 22. Rd1 fails on 22..Rxd1 23. Kxd1 Qd8!! (TN instead of 23...Qa5?) 24. Kc1 Qd5! =+


I have also discovered this 23. ... Qd8!, that's why I think that black has no real problems in the 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 line.
Of course it is nice to have this as a "fallback" option and a sharper line to play for a win!  Wink


Dearing in his excellent Play the Sicilian Dragon gives 19...Nf4 as bad due to 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 (instead of 21.Rxd8) 21...Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7 23.Rhd1 Rad8?!, and here he notes that Psakhis has recommended 23...Qa6!? as an improvement but that he still favors White.  I haven't looked at this myself and I hope I have the right position.


The position is right but I (me and Rybka) think that 23 .. Qxf2 followed by Nd4 seems to be equal.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #96 - 04/08/08 at 00:45:04
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TonyRo wrote on 03/16/08 at 05:06:00:
Here's a game against Alex Shabalov that I just played. He opted for 20. Rd2!?, which I feel is probably just better than 20. Rhe1. Anyway, I botched a winning position, and missed silly tactics on moves 27 and 32. Enjoy my sorrows, as this game cost me 500$. Cheesy

[Site "Cleveland"]
[White "Alexander Shabalov"]
[Black "Tony Rotella"]
[Result "1-0"]


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Qb7 20. Rd2 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Ba3 Rd5 23. Rhd1 Rad8 24. Nd6 Rxd2 25. Rxd2 Qa6 26. Qe3 c5 27. Qd3 c4 28. Qe3 Nd4 29. Ne4 Rb8 30. Nc3 Qb7 31. Qe4 Qxe4 32. fxe4 f6 33. gxf6 Bxf6 34. Rh2 Rb7 35. Nd5 Rf7 36. Bc5 Bg5+ 37. hxg5 Rf1+ 38. Kd2 Nf3+ 39. Ke2 Nxh2 40. Nf6+ Kf7 41. Nd7 Rf4 42. Nxe5+ Ke6 43. Ke3 Rf1
44. Nxg6 Rg1 45. Nf4+ Kf7 46. g6+ Kg8 47. Nxh5 Rxg6 48. Kd4 Rg2 49. Kc3 a6 50. Nf4 Rg4 51. Bd6 {Black Resigns} 1-0



I'm rather doubtful that 20.Rd2 is an improvement on 20.Rhe1.  After 20...Nf4 (Dearing quotes a drawn game that continued 20...a5, but I like TonyRo's move better.) 21.Bxe6, Rybka prefers 21...Rxd2! 22.Qxd2 Nxe6 and Black is fully equal.  Rybka also suggests in the 21...Nxe6 variation of the Shabalov-Rotella game that White should try 22.Bd6!?  Black may still be alright after 22...Nd4!? (or something else) but the 21...Rxd2 line seems simpler and looks more logical once one notices that 22.Bxf7+ is really bad.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #95 - 04/08/08 at 00:28:51
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FightingDragon wrote on 03/20/08 at 09:00:13:
dragonmaster wrote on 03/19/08 at 20:45:29:
2. Why not exchange rooks immediately instead of 19..Qb7? I.e.  19..Nf4 20. Bxe6 Nxe6 as the recommended 21. Rxd8 Rxd8 22. Rd1 fails on 22..Rxd1 23. Kxd1 Qd8!! (TN instead of 23...Qa5?) 24. Kc1 Qd5! =+


I have also discovered this 23. ... Qd8!, that's why I think that black has no real problems in the 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 line.
Of course it is nice to have this as a "fallback" option and a sharper line to play for a win!  Wink


Dearing in his excellent Play the Sicilian Dragon gives 19...Nf4 as bad due to 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 (instead of 21.Rxd8) 21...Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7 23.Rhd1 Rad8?!, and here he notes that Psakhis has recommended 23...Qa6!? as an improvement but that he still favors White.  I haven't looked at this myself and I hope I have the right position.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #94 - 03/23/08 at 21:53:57
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I've had a look at TonyRo's analysis on 24..c5 25.c4 f5!? Congratulation! Smiley

It seems that either White takes one of the drawing lines or there will be a messy position with chances for both sides.

Another tempting line for White to play is: 26.gxf6 Bh6 27.Qg3 Kf7 28.Qxe5 Ra6 29.Kb1 Bxd2 30.Rxd2 Qxc4 31.Rd1 Re8 32.Ka1!? which can be countered by 32...Ng7 33.Qf4 Rxe4 with a draw after 34.Qxe4 Qxe4 35.fxe4 Ne8 or 34.Qh6 Qd4! 35.Qxg7 Ke6 and 34.fxe4 Ne6 leads to a promising position for Black.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #93 - 03/20/08 at 09:23:20
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I think that I have seen some games on 19 __ Nf4 when Golubev handles the black pieces
  
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