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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line (Read 64681 times)
bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #122 - 12/07/08 at 19:44:25
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About 15 __ e5 line I think that Qb7 is not the way to go. Golubev himselft preferces Nf4. Check with experts vs the Sicialin 2nd edition to see what line he recomends for white and there is a early improvment (Qd8+ (with idea Qd5) instead of Qa5 some moves later) that changes the evaluation to at least equal but I agree difficult for black to win.

Also , the variation in Nxc3 system, 17 Bd3 is harmless becouse of Bxa2 if I am not missrembering some old game where Adams was white and almost lost against an amatuer in a simultan game.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #121 - 12/05/08 at 09:32:22
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I think there is no easy way for Black after 9.000 but White often prefers 9.Bxc4 this time.

In the decisive round of the 2008 Olympiad China lost and gave the Gold medal to Armenia with this Dragon game (ok White has 200 Elo points more)

(2856) Petrosian,T (2629) - Li Chao2 (2622) [B76]
38th Olympiad Dresden GER (11), 25.11.2008

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 Bxe3+ 15.Qxe3 Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Bd3 c5 18.Be4 Rab8 19.Qf6 Qa6 20.a3 Qc4 21.Rd6 Qa2 22.Rhd1 a5 23.h4 Qa1+ 24.Kd2 Qxb2 25.Qxb2 Rxb2 26.Kc3 Rfb8 27.Ra6 R2b5 28.Bd5 Bxd5 29.Rxd5 Re8 30.Ra7 Re3+ 31.Kd2 Re6 32.h5 gxh5 33.Rxh5 Rbb6 34.Rf5 Rbd6+ 35.Kc3 Re3+ 36.Kc4 Rd4+ 37.Kb5 Kg7 38.Rfxf7+ Kg6 39.Rg7+ Kh6 40.Rxh7+ Kg6 41.Rag7+ Kf6 42.Rf7+ Kg6 43.Rhg7+ Kh6 44.g4 Rxa3 45.f4 Raa4 46.Rh7+ Kg6 47.f5+ Kg5 48.Rfg7+ Kf4 49.c3 Re4 50.f6 Ra1 51.f7 1-0
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #120 - 12/05/08 at 02:37:46
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parisestmagique wrote on 05/14/08 at 17:40:53:
Ok, let's try to be concrete. I dont pretend that this position is easy to win but what do Black play after : 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Nf6+ Bxf6 24.gxf6 Rad8 25.Bxe5 Rxd1+ 26.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 27.Kxd1 Qb5 28.Qe3 Qd5+ 29.Kc1 Qxa2 30.b3 Qa5 31.f4 Qa3 32.Kb1 Qa6 33.Kb2 Qa5 34.Qd3 ...


I'm very open to other opinions but this looks like torture for Black and I rather doubt he can even hold. 

I really think Black needs an improvement earlier for this line to be OK for him.

This is no problem for the super GM's but how does Black play for a win against prepared opposition who play 9.0-0-0 and don't feel like fighting.  Black can play the 13...Re8 variation but against the endgame option White is playing for 2 results.  Black can try 12...Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 Bxe3 15.Qxe3 Qb6, but then we get a rather equal endgame if White just plays 16.Qxb6.  It's also rather difficult for me to believe 7...Bd7 or 9.0-0-0 Bd7.  The 9...Nxd4 variation has been analyzed quite a bit here on the forum and is looking pretty shaky too.

I'd be very interested to here others thoughts on this. 
  
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Teyko
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #119 - 05/15/08 at 04:33:16
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I am glad to see that c5 has taken off after all these years.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #118 - 05/14/08 at 17:40:53
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Ok, let's try to be concrete. I dont pretend that this position is easy to win but what do Black play after : 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Nf6+ Bxf6 24.gxf6 Rad8 25.Bxe5 Rxd1+ 26.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 27.Kxd1 Qb5 28.Qe3 Qd5+ 29.Kc1 Qxa2 30.b3 Qa5 31.f4 Qa3 32.Kb1 Qa6 33.Kb2 Qa5 34.Qd3 ...
  
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dRr0x0rZZ
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #117 - 05/14/08 at 08:37:52
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If vagueness was music, parisestmagique's post would be a brass band. There is no concrete line in which white is able to force black to trade the queens off and simply win the f7-pawn. Black has reasonable activity and unless someone can show a clear, concrete plan for white, there is no reason to suspect that the final position after 31.f4 is anything but a draw. Black's options after 31...Qa3 32.Kb1 Qa6 (or any permutation of this sort of queen maneuver, such as 31...Qa6) shows the vulnerability of the white king. Any hope of pushing those queenside pawns will almost undoubtedly increase that weakness. If black avoids trading queens he should be just fine, since a7 cannot be won by white under any circumstances but the queens coming off.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #116 - 05/06/08 at 07:46:49
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1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Nf6+ Bxf6 24.gxf6 Rad8 25.Bxe5 Rxd1+ 26.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 27.Kxd1 Qb5 28.Qe3 Qd5+ 29.Kc1 Qxa2 30.b3 Qa5 31.f4 i dont see a plan for Black. Basicaly the plan for White is to exchange Queens and then win the endgame (pawn a7 is very weack, Black King is often cut from the Queenside.) But to pretend that the Dragon is refuted pff ...
19...Nf4 seems to be ok, and at least the Dragon is not refuted for players like Carlsen, Radjabov, Bacrot, Grischuk.
  
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dRr0x0rZZ
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #115 - 05/06/08 at 05:22:43
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I don't see ...Rd5 as being feasible in any lines for black, since you either play 21...Ne6, allowing white to play 22.Bd6 and keep the d-file shut down, or you play 21...Rd2 in which case there's nobody home on the d-file.

Tonight we found that a big idea for white can be the rook lift Rd1-d3, which is something to keep in mind.

On the purely philosophical, non-theoretical side, I'd like to find the most constructive, ambitious way for white to play. Black is structurally worse in most endgames if white can shore up the weaknesses on f3 and h4; yes, it sounds like a pipe dream, but the Qf2 works wonders for this. Through our analysis, we've found that the principal intruders into white's position are the black Q and N, so if these can be dealt with, white should be fine.

Trading the Bg7 off at an opportune time is, in my opinion, a good plan for white. The maneuver Be7-f6 or Be7 and Nf6+ leaves the e5-pawn unprotected. The line I provided in my previous analysis has just this idea in mind. This, to me, seems to be what white should aim for in the position. This aim is usually only achieved after a lot of subtle, tough maneuvering which keeps black's play to a minimum.

There is only so far to go with "textual" analysis, so I'll leave the rest up to concrete ideas. Hopefully the dragon is refuted and I never have to worry about proving white's position here...
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Early 20.Rd2 instead of 20.Rde1
Reply #114 - 05/05/08 at 17:01:01
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dRr0x0rZZ wrote on 05/05/08 at 03:25:49:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20.Rd2!?

This allows black a zwishenzug, 21...Rd2 but I'm not sure if trading the rooks is good for black. Tony believes that black ideally wants one rook on the board while white wants both or none. This makes sense, but if white can control black's activity the endgame will be better because of that g7 thrall:

20...Nf4 21.Bxe6 Rxd2 22.Qxd2 Nxe6. White does not desire the trade of knight for bishop just yet (it allows black the d-file), so 23.Bd6 is the natural continuation. Black plans to play ...Rd8 and get at the weak h4 and f3 pawns with the queen and the knight. Notice I don't mention the role for the g7-bishop, who seems bequeathed to the e5-pawn for life if white is careful.

White wants to make sure that the weak pawns on f3 and h4 get defended and that the knight stays on f4 to blockade the bishop/pawn duo. So without further ado, a few lines:

23.Bd6 Qa6 24.Kb1 Rd8 (24...Nd4 is too soon: 25.c3 Nf5 [25...Nf3 26.Qe3] 26.Bc5 (a move which would be impossible had black played 24...Rd8) and white has control of the d-file as well as the position.) 25.Qf2!? (25.Rd1?! Nd4 26.c3 Nf5 =+) 25...Qc4 (25...Nd4 is too early; white has nothing on the d-file: 26.Be7 Rd5 27.Nf6+ Bf6 28.Bf6 += because of the threat of f4 and the weakness of the dark squares and e5-pawn) 26.Rd1 Nd4 and maybe white chooses from the b3-a4-Rd3 plan or the Be7 and Nf6 or Bf6. Weigh in?


I don't think that Black wants to keep one on all the time (I'm sure it's true sometimes), maybe you misunderstood. It's my experience in these lines that Black wants to:

1. Keep his knight. Obviously a Ne4 vs. Bg7 is gonna be all bad, so any additional minor piece pairs are welcomed by Black.

2. I would hazard a guess and say that Black wants to trade both pairs of rooks in most cases, as White's are more poised to enter the action via the d-file, and White's rooks can more easily guard the weaknesses on h4 and f3, while Black's really don't do much of anything besides trying to trade themselves off. Also, it's a minor deal that White can find some problems with his king via the back rank (i.e a Qb5 or Qb6 looking all the way to f1 or g1).

3. White has less pawn islands, and a much more mobile bishop. At this point, I don't think Black's Bg7 even qualifies as a piece. This all points to keeping pieces on as Black for as long as possible. That said, there are many endgames in this variation that are completely fine/better for Black if there are some asymmetric pawn trades made (a7 for h4, or something like that).

4. It's hard for White to make progress here. He doesn't have any amazing plans that I've seen so far. It's common to see White looking better, but making progress from better to much better to winning is a whole different thing.

5. Last but not least, 21...Nxe6 is still an option as well. Shabalov didn't play all that well in our game, but I didn't feel worse at all. In fact, maybe keeping the rooks on in lieu of the common ...Rd5 (please take me!) + ...Rad8 plan is an idea. I don't really know.

Since my laptop fried (too much Dragon analysis already?), so I can't really confidently analyze anything right now, but it's been fun.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #113 - 05/05/08 at 06:19:10
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Glenn, the line that you offer with 23.Nf6+ does not seem ambitious enough for white to win. In the final position after 30.b3 you're right, black has no good plan. But white's pieces are all on their best squares and there is no way to make progress. After 30...Qa5 black seems well poised to stop any white counterplay. I guess the best question to ask is how does white proceed?
  
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Early 20.Rd2 instead of 20.Rde1
Reply #112 - 05/05/08 at 03:25:49
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1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20.Rd2!?

This allows black a zwishenzug, 21...Rd2 but I'm not sure if trading the rooks is good for black. Tony believes that black ideally wants one rook on the board while white wants both or none. This makes sense, but if white can control black's activity the endgame will be better because of that g7 thrall:

20...Nf4 21.Bxe6 Rxd2 22.Qxd2 Nxe6. White does not desire the trade of knight for bishop just yet (it allows black the d-file), so 23.Bd6 is the natural continuation. Black plans to play ...Rd8 and get at the weak h4 and f3 pawns with the queen and the knight. Notice I don't mention the role for the g7-bishop, who seems bequeathed to the e5-pawn for life if white is careful.

White wants to make sure that the weak pawns on f3 and h4 get defended and that the knight stays on f4 to blockade the bishop/pawn duo. So without further ado, a few lines:

23.Bd6 Qa6 24.Kb1 Rd8 (24...Nd4 is too soon: 25.c3 Nf5 [25...Nf3 26.Qe3] 26.Bc5 (a move which would be impossible had black played 24...Rd8) and white has control of the d-file as well as the position.) 25.Qf2!? (25.Rd1?! Nd4 26.c3 Nf5 =+) 25...Qc4 (25...Nd4 is too early; white has nothing on the d-file: 26.Be7 Rd5 27.Nf6+ Bf6 28.Bf6 += because of the threat of f4 and the weakness of the dark squares and e5-pawn) 26.Rd1 Nd4 and maybe white chooses from the b3-a4-Rd3 plan or the Be7 and Nf6 or Bf6. Weigh in?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #111 - 04/13/08 at 18:25:41
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The Dragon was not even considered sound when Kasparov played it agiasnt Anand...
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #110 - 04/11/08 at 23:23:47
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What about parisestmagique's suggested improvement much earlier?  If anyone has anything good against that I'd really like to know.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8
19. Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7


And now instead of 23.Rd2 parisestmagique has suggested that 23.Nf6+! is strong for White.  The main variation I looked at was 23...Bxf6 24.gxf6 Rad8 25.Bxe5 Rxd1+ 26.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 27.Kxd1 Qb5 28.Qe3 (28.f4 Qd5+ 29.Kc1 Qh1+!?) 28...Qd5+ 29.Kc1 Qxa2 30.b3 and I haven't found a good continuation for Black.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #109 - 04/11/08 at 20:21:37
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Gewgaw,

Don't worry about it dude. That said, there are various improvements Black can try here. 36...Qd3 is the earliest. It looks to me like it makes more sense to keep the queen handy on the d-file. I've tried to find something for White after this, but I'm not really coming up with anything.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #108 - 04/11/08 at 15:32:47
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To Tony:
I reread my posts again and I´ve to admit, that especially the sentence "why the hell...." could be misconceive as offensive. Sorry for that, Tony! As an excuse I can only bring forward, that I feel to the Dragon like a declined lover and I don`t wanna waste more time for this opening. As I`m writing these lines I remark I still do.
I tried to challenge your 25. ...f5. I think I found something against 32. ... a5, but detected the rescue 32. .. Ng7. Again, no refutation, but I hold the view, that the dragon isn´t sound.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3
Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Qb7 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24. Red1 c5 25. c4 f5 26. gxf6 Bh6 27. Kb1 Bxd2 28. Rxd2 Qa6 29. Qg3 Kf7 (29... Rxd6 30. Qxg6+ Kf8 31. Ng5 R8d7 32. Nxe6+ Rxe6 33. Qh6+ Kg8 34. Rg2+ Kf7 35. Qg7+ Ke8 36. Qg8#) 30. Qxe5
Qxc4 31. Rd1 Re8 32. Ka1 a5 (32... Ng7 33. Qg5 Nf5 34. Rg1 Rg8 35. Bxc5 Qe2 36. Qc1 Rgd8 37. Be7 Rd1 38. Bxd8 Rxc1+ 39. Rxc1 Qe3 40. Rc7+ Ke8 41. f7+ Kf8 42. a3 Qxf3 43. Nf6 Qd1+ 44. Ka2 Kg7 45. Ne8+ Kf8 46. Nf6 Kg7 $11) 33. Rg1 Qd4 34. Qg3 Rg8 35. a3 c4 36. Be5 Qe3 37. Bc3 Qb6 38. Qg2 Rd3 39. f4 Rxc3 (39...Nxf4 40. Ng5+ $18) 40. bxc3 Qb3 (40... Nc5 41. Nd2 Qxf6 42. Qd5+ Kg7 43. Qxc4) 41. Rb1 Qxa3+ 42. Qa2 Qxa2+ 43. Kxa2

Greetings,

gewgaw
  

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