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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line (Read 79075 times)
Markovich
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #17 - 08/10/05 at 19:20:04
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I have to disagree with you there Markovich, you missed 25....f5!!

WE CONTINUE FROM THE FOLLOWING POSITION:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. Qd2 O-O 8. f3 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 c5!? 25.Qf1 f5!

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=3r2k1/pq1r2b1/3Bn1p1/2p1...

now white has two options: 

26.Nf6+ Bxf6 27.gxf6 Kf7 (27...Qc6!?) and black is on that crunk juice!!!

26.gxf6?! Bh6 27.Qg2 Nf4! 28.f7 Rxf7 and black is winning hands down. 

Again the most critical test of this line is 25...Nxc5 which appears to be a draw.


I might not be quite so liberal with my exclamations, but yes, I did overlook 25...f5 26. gxf6 Bh6  and now also 27. Kb1 Bxd2  28. Rxd2 Qc6 is better for Black, for example 28. Qd1 c4.

Good move.
  

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Teyko
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #16 - 08/10/05 at 04:33:27
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I have to disagree with you there Markovich, you missed 25....f5!!

WE CONTINUE FROM THE FOLLOWING POSITION:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. Qd2 O-O 8. f3 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 c5!? 25.Qf1 f5!

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=3r2k1/pq1r2b1/3Bn1p1/2p1p...

now white has two options: 

26.Nf6+ Bxf6 27.gxf6 Kf7 (27...Qc6!?) and black is on that crunk juice!!!

26.gxf6?! Bh6 27.Qg2 Nf4! 28.f7 Rxf7 and black is winning hands down. 

Again the most critical test of this line is 25...Nxc5 which appears to be a draw.
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #15 - 08/10/05 at 03:57:44
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After 25.Qf1 (which is, by the way, Fritz' favorite), black can continue 25. ... Qc6 26.Qc4 a5!? with the idea to withdraw the a-pawn from a future attack by the bishop after mass exchanges on the d-file, c5 and f3.
One exemplary variation could be 27.Kb1 Nd4! 28.Bc5: Nf3: 29.Rd7: Rd7: 30.Rd7: Qd7: when black is better due to the back rank weakness and will soon win h4 and create a protected passer.
  
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Markovich
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #14 - 08/09/05 at 19:29:46
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We begin with these moves:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. Qd2 O-O 8. f3 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 c5!?

25. Nf6+ Bxf6 26. gxf6 Qa6! and white is lost.

25.Bxc5 Rxd2 26. Rxd2 Rxd2 27. Qxd2 Nxc5 28. Nxc5 Qxf3 and Black stands better because he has the freeing f5 move. 

25.Qe3 c4!?(It is being attacked three times, so why not move it?) 26.Ba3 [26.Nc3 looks interesting, but I haven't looked into it off hand I like 26...a5, but I am not sure] 26...Rxd2 27.Rxd2 Rxd2 28.Nxd2 Qa6 and black stands better [28.Qxd2 Nd4=]

25. Nxc5 looks like the best option 25...Nxc5 26. Bxc5 and here I am looking at 26...Rxd2 or 26...e4!?


24...c5, gaining space, seems to be as good a try as any.  After your 25.Bxc5 Rxd2 26. Rxd2 Rxd2 White should play not 27. Qxd2, but 27. Nxd2.  However, even then 27...Qd5 and I suspect Black has sufficient play.

The critical reply may be 25. Qf1 (25. Qe2? allows 25...Nd4).

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=3r2k1/pq1r1pb1/3Bn1p1/2p1...

White intends Qc4 with pressure against f7, e.g. 25...Qc6 (25....Qb4 26. Qa6) 26. Qc4 Nd4  27. Bxc5 Nxf3  28. Rxd7 Rxd7  29. Rd6! and White seems to preserve some advantage.

Or 25...c4  26. Qxc4 Nd4  27. Bb4! Nxf3  28. Rd6! and 28...Nd4 meets with 29. Nc5 (if White had played 27. Ba3, the analogous sequence would fail to 29...Rxd6!  30. Nxb7 Nb3+) 
  

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Teyko
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #13 - 08/09/05 at 16:14:52
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I think it is useful in a few ways. I tries to make use of the c pawn in the endgame as it moves it from being a target and converts it into a useful stop against a c4-b3 advance from white. 

It creates a possible outpost for the knight after Nf4. 

It forces simplification which I think is helpful for black considering whites space advantage, and I think it gives Black chances in the endgame.

What other move are others willing to suggest. 

I mean c3 is a terrible idea in light of c4, a6, and Qb5  for Black
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #12 - 08/09/05 at 08:20:58
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As far as the 24...c5 idea goes, the main issue I have with it as Black is this: how does it improve the Black position? I had a look at it, and while you're right about 25. Nf6+ being bad, after something like 25. c3 c4 26. Rd5 I couldn't find anything constructive for Black to do. White plans to swap off the rooks down the d-file with Be7 at some stage, and once the rooks come off White (unless there is a trick in the position) is clearly better due to his structure and, most importantly, his much more active pieces. The c4 pawn will drop.

I haven't looked at 24...Qb5 for some time (not for a couple of months or so) but I seem to remember thinking once more that White's minor pieces make it very difficult to co-ordinate Black's pieces; you can't create an attack without conceding the d-file, and critically Black can't double his major pieces on the b-file due to lines with c3 and Qe2, as he can't maintain the battery on the file with his rook on b7.

I doubt this is a position that requires a great deal of analysis - once the tricks have been found, finding plans is much more useful. Having said that, I do remember being quite scared in several lines involving an ...f5 advance if White simply sacrifices the exchange on d2 for the bishop and goes for the kingside attack; g6 is very difficult to hold.
  
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Teyko
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #11 - 08/08/05 at 17:20:49
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Oh, by the way, can someone post any available analysis on the Qb5 line recommended above. I read Donaldson's review and he seems to argue only that it is possible along with Qb6 which we now know to be dubious.
  
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Teyko
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #10 - 08/08/05 at 17:19:32
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"Is this the best we can hope for though in this position. All of the queen moves seem to give white to much. I was hoping to find a slight advantage for black that would at least give him the initiative."

chess really just doesn't work that way.


I have not a single clue what you are talking about  Fluffy. The best move in this position is one in which Black has winning chances in the end game. How is chess not like that?
  
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fluffy
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #9 - 08/07/05 at 10:40:21
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"Is this the best we can hope for though in this position. All of the queen moves seem to give white to much. I was hoping to find a slight advantage for black that would at least give him the initiative."

chess really just doesn't work that way.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #8 - 08/07/05 at 07:41:25
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Is this the best we can hope for though in this position. All of the queen moves seem to give white to much. I was hoping to find a slight advantage for black that would at least give him the initiative.


A lot of Dragon lines fizzle out and reach drawish positions in the ending or late middle game.  White has to know how to get there of course, but if he does, so be it.  I just won't play into those lines if I absolutely need to win the game, say in the last round of a tournament.  Against lower-rated players, I'll probably find a way to avoid going into a drawing continuation, but maybe I wouldn't.  Depends on the clock situation, and whether I think they'd be able to play a drawn ending.  If they do, good for them.

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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #7 - 08/06/05 at 21:20:38
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Teyko -

Yes, 25.Nf6+ is bad for white.  25.Nxc5 Nxc5 26.Bxc5 Rxd2 and further exchanges produces an easy draw for whichever side wants it.  In your original question, after 24.Red1, I don't see any advantage for white.  Your move 24...c5 is ok for a draw.  I don't play this 12...e5 line.

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Is this the best we can hope for though in this position. All of the queen moves seem to give white to much. I was hoping to find a slight advantage for black that would at least give him the initiative.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #6 - 08/06/05 at 20:57:13
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Teyko -

Yes, 25.Nf6+ is bad for white.  25.Nxc5 Nxc5 26.Bxc5 Rxd2 and further exchanges produces an easy draw for whichever side wants it.  In your original question, after 24.Red1, I don't see any advantage for white.  Your move 24...c5 is ok for a draw.  I don't play this 12...e5 line.

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Teyko
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #5 - 08/06/05 at 19:31:47
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We begin with these moves:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. Qd2 O-O 8. f3 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 c5!?

And are left with this position:

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=3r2k1/pq1r1pb1/3Bn1p1/2p1...

I strongly disagree madhacker as after:

25. Nf6+ Bxf6 26. gxf6 Qa6! and white is lost.

25.Bxc5 Rxd2 26. Rxd2 Rxd2 27. Qxd2 Nxc5 28. Nxc5 Qxf3 and Black stands better because he has the freeing f5 move. 

25.Qe3 c4!?(It is being attacked three times, so why not move it?) 26.Ba3 [26.Nc3 looks interesting, but I haven't looked into it off hand I like 26...a5, but I am not sure] 26...Rxd2 27.Rxd2 Rxd2 28.Nxd2 Qa6 and black stands better [28.Qxd2 Nd4=]

25. Nxc5 looks like the best option 25...Nxc5 26. Bxc5 and here I am looking at 26...Rxd2 or 26...e4!?
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #4 - 08/06/05 at 16:07:54
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Mikhail pointed the transposition after 24...Qb6 and 26. Be7! in response to my post in that thread. I haven't looked at 24...c5!? either, but what immediately strikes me is that after 25. Nf6+ Bxf6 26. gxf6, White seems to be winning one of Black's pawns on e5 or c5. After 24...Qb5 I felt that White is still better after 25. Kb1, as due to the White minor pieces Black is struggling to develop counterplay; 25...c5 is not a big threat as 26. c3 prevents ...Nd4 and plays to exploit the d5 square later on.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #3 - 08/02/05 at 10:00:07
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[b]1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. Qd2 O-O 8. f3 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 19...Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1[/b]

A. 24...Qb6 25.Qxb6 axb6 26.Be7! does look strong.

B. 24...c5!? (Teyko),  I haven't looked at this seriously yet.

C. 24...Qb5!? (Donaldson),  I think this may actually be the best move here.  A brief look with Fritz also seemed to show it was OK.



  
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