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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line (Read 74653 times)
FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #92 - 03/20/08 at 09:00:13
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dragonmaster wrote on 03/19/08 at 20:45:29:
2. Why not exchange rooks immediately instead of 19..Qb7? I.e.  19..Nf4 20. Bxe6 Nxe6 as the recommended 21. Rxd8 Rxd8 22. Rd1 fails on 22..Rxd1 23. Kxd1 Qd8!! (TN instead of 23...Qa5?) 24. Kc1 Qd5! =+


I have also discovered this 23. ... Qd8!, that's why I think that black has no real problems in the 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 line.
Of course it is nice to have this as a "fallback" option and a sharper line to play for a win!  Wink
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #91 - 03/20/08 at 04:20:16
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23. Qg3 is interesting, but you neglect to look at 23...Qb5, just simply protecting the pawn. Humorously, White can get into quite a bit of trouble here trying to gang up on the e-pawn, for instance:

24. Nf6+?? Bxf6 25. gxf6 Nf4! -+, since White doesn't really have any good way to meet 26...Rad8.

19...Nf4 is also interesting! I dunno if I completely trust it after something like 20. Bxe6 Nxe6 21. Bd6. I'm always reluctant to go into this queenless ending after 21...Qb6 since Black's pawns on the queenside look a bit weak, and generally speaking I feel like the structure and minor pieces favor White. In general, I think that Black should avoid exchanges in these positions. That said, 21...Qa5 22. Kb1 is maybe tenable for Black, but is a5 a better square than b7? I dunno!

Has anyone checked my analysis 25. c4 f5!? yet?
  
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dragonmaster
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #90 - 03/19/08 at 20:45:29
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Just to add a new dimension to the discussions on the expert lines vs Dragon line:-

1. How about 23. Qg3? (after 19..Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7). Black has problems:-
a. 23.. Rad8 24. Bxe5 Rxd1 25. Rxd1 Rxd1 26. Kd1 +=
b. 23..Qa6 24. a3 Rad8 25. Bxe5 Rxd1 26. Rxd1 Rxd1 27. Kxd1 Qf1 28. Kd2 Qg2 29. Nf2 +=

2. Why not exchange rooks immediately instead of 19..Qb7? I.e.  19..Nf4 20. Bxe6 Nxe6 as the recommended 21. Rxd8 Rxd8 22. Rd1 fails on 22..Rxd1 23. Kxd1 Qd8!! (TN instead of 23...Qa5?) 24. Kc1 Qd5! =+
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #89 - 03/18/08 at 12:26:02
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.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6
8.Qd2 O-O 9.O-O-O d5 10.ed Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bc 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.h4 h6 15.g4 Re8 16.Ne4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7
20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 c5 25.c4 a5 !? is maybe a possibility for Black ... any thought about this try ?
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #88 - 03/17/08 at 03:19:09
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Okay dudes, here's another suggestion:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6
8.Qd2 O-O 9.O-O-O d5 10.ed Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bc 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.h4 h6 15.g4 Re8 16.Ne4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7
20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 c5 25.c4 f5!?!

Now:

26. gxf6 Bh6 27. Qg3 Kf7! (27...Bxd2 loses after 28. Rxd2 Nf4 29. f7+ Kxf7 Qg5) and now:

28. Qxe5 looks obvious - 28...Qa6! 29. Ng5+ Bxg5 30. hxg5 Qa2, and Black has a good game, although of course the position is an absolute mess.

28. Ng5+ Bxg5 29. hxg5 Nd4! and Black is better.

28. Kb1!? An interesting move I looked at, probably better than the first two. This can transpose to the first variation given as well. 28...Bxd2 29. Rxd2 Qa6 30. Qxe5 Qxc4 31. Rd1! Re8! (computers don't find this move, at least my crappy laptop!)  32. b3 Qe2 33. Qd5 c4 34. Nc3 Qe3 35. Qxc4 Qxf3 36. Rf1 Qg4 37. Ne4 Kg8! and Black is fine. I am sure there are improvements everywhere,  but at the very least the game is very complicated and the right moves are not easy to find. Oh yes, if he doesn't take en passant I found a nice line:

26. Nxc5 Nxc5 27. Bxc5 e4! 28. Rxd7 Rxd7 29. Rxd7 Qxd7 30. fxe4 Qd3! 31. exf5 Qxc4+ now:

32. Qc2 Qf1+ 33. Kd2 Qg2+ and given that White has to play Kd3 to stop perpetual, I'll leave it here. The lines aren't hard, Black will win the f5 pawn back with check, and keep going. White's never gonna win this. Suffice to say that 34. Kd3 Qf1 is a draw.

32. Kb1 Qd3+ 33. Qc2 Qf1+ 34. Qc1 Qxf5+ 35. Ka1 Qe4! 36. Bxa7 Qxh4 and Black's superior pieces and outside h-pawn give him enough compensation.

No one bust this!
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #87 - 03/16/08 at 05:06:00
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Here's a game against Alex Shabalov that I just played. He opted for 20. Rd2!?, which I feel is probably just better than 20. Rhe1. Anyway, I botched a winning position, and missed silly tactics on moves 27 and 32. Enjoy my sorrows, as this game cost me 500$. Cheesy

[Site "Cleveland"]
[White "Alexander Shabalov"]
[Black "Tony Rotella"]
[Result "1-0"]


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19. Qf2 Qb7 20. Rd2 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Ba3 Rd5 23. Rhd1 Rad8 24. Nd6 Rxd2 25. Rxd2 Qa6 26. Qe3 c5 27. Qd3 c4 28. Qe3 Nd4 29. Ne4 Rb8 30. Nc3 Qb7 31. Qe4 Qxe4 32. fxe4 f6 33. gxf6 Bxf6 34. Rh2 Rb7 35. Nd5 Rf7 36. Bc5 Bg5+ 37. hxg5 Rf1+ 38. Kd2 Nf3+ 39. Ke2 Nxh2 40. Nf6+ Kf7 41. Nd7 Rf4 42. Nxe5+ Ke6 43. Ke3 Rf1
44. Nxg6 Rg1 45. Nf4+ Kf7 46. g6+ Kg8 47. Nxh5 Rxg6 48. Kd4 Rg2 49. Kc3 a6 50. Nf4 Rg4 51. Bd6 {Black Resigns} 1-0

  
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felixas
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #86 - 03/14/08 at 11:46:51
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Very easy to learn  Wink
  
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JEH
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #85 - 03/13/08 at 18:57:18
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Yikes, so Dragon theory has now got as deep as move 78.  Shocked  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Katalyst
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #84 - 03/13/08 at 15:07:50
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I think I might (fingers crossed) have found a possible drawing line, I was looking at White's other 35th moves but agree that parisestmagique's line looks best for White. Black has to play 37....Ke6 I think (typically I looked at this last, I thought I'd found a draw after 37. h4 but then found 41. fxe4+ seems to kill that off). I'll put the rest anyway in case it's any use later, sorry it's a bit messy Smiley

37.hxg5 Ke6 38.Bxa5 Kf5 [38...h4?! 39.Ke2 transposes to 37...h4?!] 39.a4 h4 [39...Kf4? 40.Ke2 Kxg5 41.Bd2+ Kf5 42.a5+-] 40.Be1 h3 41.Bg3 Bf8 42.a5 Bc5 43.a6 Bb6 44.b4 [44.Bh2 Ke6 45.Kc4 Ba7 46.b4 Be3 47.b5 Bf2=] 44...Ke6 45.Kc4 Ba7 46.b5 Kd6 47.f4 exf4 48.Bxf4+ Ke6 49.Bc7 Kd7 50.Bg3 [50.b6?? Bxb6] 50...Ke6 51.Bf4 Kf5 52.Bh2 Ke6 53.Kb4 Bb6 54.Kc4 Ba7= (I think)

37...a4? 38.bxa4 h4 39.Bb6 h3 40.Bg1 Bf8 41.a5 Bc5 42.Bh2 Ke6 43.Ke4 Kd6 44.Bxe5+ Kc6 45.Bh2 Kb5 46.f4 Bd6 (46...Kxa5 47.Ka5+-) 47.Kd5 Bb4 48.Ke6 Bxa5 49.Kf6+-

37...h4?! 38.Ke2 Ke6 39.Bxa5 A) 39...Kd5 40.Be1 h3 41.Kf2+-; B) 39...Bf8 40.Be1 h3 41.Kf2 Be7 42.Kg3 Bxg5 43.Kxh3 Kf5 44.a4 Be3 45.a5 Ke6 46.b4 Kd5 47.b5 Kc5 48.b6 Kc6 49.Bc3 Bc5 50.Kg2 (50.Bxe5? Bb4 51.Kg4 Bxa5 52.Bd4 Bd2 53.Bf2 Kb7 54.f4 Kc6 55.Kg5 Kb7 56.Bc5 Kc6) 50...Kb7 51.Kf1 g5 52.Kg2 Be3 53.Kg3 Ka6 54.Kg4 Kb7; C) 39...Kf5 C1) 40.Bd2 e4 41.fxe4+ Kxe4 42.Kf2 Be5 43.Kg2 Bg3 44.b4 Kd3 45.Bc1 Kc4 46.a3 Kb5 47.Kf3 Ka4 48.Bf4 Be1 49.Kg4 Bf2 (49...Kxa3? 50.b5 Ba5 51.Be3 Kb4 52.b6 Kb5 53.b7 Bc7 54.Ba7+-) 50.Bc7 Be3 51.Kxh4 Kb5 52.Kg4 Bc1 53.Bf4 Bxa3 54.Bd2 Bb2 55.Kf4 Bg7 56.Ke4 Bf8 57.Bc3 Be7 58.Kf4 Kc4; C2) 40.Bd8 40...e4 C2a) 41.Ke3?! Be5! 42.fxe4+ Kg4 43.Kf2 Bg3+ 44.Kg1 Kf3 45.a4 Kxe4 46.b4 (46.Kg2 Kd5) 46...Kd5 C2a1) 47.b5 Kc5 48.b6 (48.Kg2) 48...Kc6 49.Kg2 Be1 50.Kh3 Bf2 51.a5 Kb7 52.Be7 Be1 53.Bc5 Bxa5 54.Kxh4 Bxb6 55.Bxb6 Kxb6 56.Kg4 Kc5; C2a2) 47.Kg2 47...Be1 48.Be7 (48.b5 Kc5 49.Kh3 Bg3 50.Be7+ Kb6 51.Bb4 Bf2) 48...Kc4 49.a5 Kb5 50.Kh3 Kc6 51.Kg4 Kb5 (51...Bf2? 52.Bc5+-) ; C2b) 41.fxe4+ 41...Kxe4 42.Kf2 Bc3 (42...Kf4 43.Kg2 Kg4 44.a4 Be5 45.a5 h3+ 46.Kh1 Bb8+-) 43.Kg2 Kd5 (43...Kd3? 44.Be7) 44.a4 Kc5 45.Be7+ Kc6 46.Kh3 Be1 47.b4 Bf2 48.Kg4 Kd7 (48...Kb7 49.b5) 49.Bf6 Kc6 50.b5+ Kc5! 51.Bd8 Bg3 52.Ba5 C2b1) 52...Bf2? 53.Kf3 Bg3 54.Bd2 Kb6 (54...Be5 55.Bf4 Bc3 56.Be3+ Kd5 57.Bf2+-; 54...Bc7 55.Be3+ Kb4 56.b6+-) 55.Be3+ Ka5 56.Bf2 Bd6 57.Bxh4 Bc7 (57...Kxa4 58.b6 Kb5 59.Bg3+-) 58.Bf2+-; C2b2) 52...Kc4 53.Bd2 Kc5 54.Be3+ Kb4 55.Bf4 Bf2 56.Kf3 Bd4 (56...Bc5? 57.Bc7 Kxa4 58.b6+-) 57.Bc7 Kc5 58.Bd8 Bc3 (58...Kb4? 59.b6 Kxa4 60.Bc7+-) 59.Kg4 Be1 60.Bc7 Bf2 61.Ba5 C2b21) 61...Kc4!? 62.Bd2 (62.b6 Kc5) 62...Bg3 63.b6 (63.Bf4 Bf2 64.Bd2 Bg3 65.b6 Kc5 66.a5 Kc6 67.Be3 Kb7 68.Bd2 Bf2 69.Bb4 Bg3) 63...Kc5 64.a5 Kc6; C2b22) 61...Bg3?! 62.Bc3 Kb6 63.Bd2 Bf2 64.Kf3 Bg3 65.Be3+ Ka5 66.Bf4 Be1 67.Kg4 Kb6 68.Bd6 Bf2 69.Bb4 Bg3 70.Bd2 Bf2 71.Kf3 (71.Bc3 Bg3) 71...Bg3 72.Bf4 (72.Be3+? Ka5 73.Bf4 Be1 74.Kg4 Kb6 75.Bd6 Bf2 76.Bb4) 72...Be1 73.Be3+ C2b221) 73...Kc7 74.Bf2 Bd2 (74...Ba5 75.Bxh4 Kd6 76.Ke4+-) 75.Kg4+-; C2b222) 73...Ka5 74.Bf2 Bb4 75.Bxh4 Bc5 76.Bf2 Be7 (76...Bb4 77.Be3 Bd6 78.Bf4 Bb4 79.Ke4+-) 77.Be1+ Kxa4 78.b6+-

I still get the feeling this is all 12....e5's fault!
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #83 - 03/13/08 at 10:11:03
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parisestmagique wrote on 03/12/08 at 19:16:22:
Very important discovery from FightingDragon


The credit for this line goes to SwissDragon, not me as you can see that I quoted him!  Smiley
For earlier improvements read my post above, I think 24. ... c5 is dubious because of 25.c4!
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #82 - 03/12/08 at 19:16:22
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Very important discovery from FightingDragon, the endgame after
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6
8.Qd2 O-O 9.O-O-O d5 10.ed Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bc 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.h4 h6 15.g4 Re8 16.Ne4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7
20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 c5 25.c4 Qb4 26.b3 a5 27.Rd5 Nf4 28.Bxc5 Rxd5 29.Rxd5 Rxd5
30.Bxb4 Nd3 31.Kc2 Nxf2 32.cd Nxe4 33.d6 Nxd6 34.Bxd6 f6
35.Kd3 Kf7 36.Bc7 fxg 37.hxg seems winning for White. Any idea for Black ?
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #81 - 03/11/08 at 11:54:47
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The problem with 24. ... Qb6 is 25.Qb6:! ab6: 26.Be7! +/-
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #80 - 03/10/08 at 22:20:20
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This is quite true, I didn't realize when I looked at this the first time that the a5 pawn is gonna drop. I thought 33...Nxd6 34. Bxd6 f6 would be fine for Black, but it's not. What's wrong with ...Qb6 instead of ...c5 again?
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #79 - 03/10/08 at 18:43:13
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Swiss_Dragon wrote on 08/19/05 at 03:39:39:
By the way: Also 24...c5 25.c4 Qb4 26.b3 a5 27.Rd5 Nf4 28.Bxc5 Rxd5 29.Rxd5 Rxd5 30.Bxb4 Nd3+ 31.Kc2 Nxf2 32.cxd5 Nxe4 33.d6 Nxd6 (forced) 34.Bxd6 deserves serious attention. Black is struggling.


33.d6! is very good for white, probably winning in the long run.
Somehow it is difficult for black to generate play after 24. ... c5 25.c4! while the c5-pawn is weak and can easily get lost.

So perhaps it is time to move on to 24. ... Qb5 but taking the idea of c5 with us while preventing c4 by white! I have done some analysis on that and it seems black is OK.

If that doesn't work, I think that 19. ... Nf4 offers good chances to equalize for black.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 12. Bd4 Experts vs.Sicilian line
Reply #78 - 03/09/08 at 19:55:49
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I dunno, for some reason I really like this ...c5 idea. It's certainly more interesting than the suggested ...Qb6 or ...Qb5, and keeps the position complicated for a while to come. As far as Black having winning chances, of course engines (and pretty much only after c4) think that White has some edge, and maybe it's true. But Black certainly has winning chances since the position is somewhat double edged. The conclusion that I've come to about these types of positions is that normally Black has some annoyances to compensate for the fact this his bishop on g7 sucks. White has really weak pawns on f3 and h4 (and if this one hangs the h5 pawn is a monster), and White normally can't roam too far with the e4 knight for fear of some ...e4 ideas. Black has to play well and really try to get to those weaknesses, but if he plays well, he should be okay.  Grin
  
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