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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Controversial London System (Read 77483 times)
Sandman
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #120 - 09/15/11 at 14:39:20
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How does the London compare to other openings (systems) such as colle, torre, KIA, English Botvinnik, or things like the catalan?
  

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MNb
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #119 - 09/14/11 at 15:17:45
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I highly probably have mentioned this before:

1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 and evt. 5...cxd4 either transposes to the Exchange Variation of the Caro-Kann (3.exd5 cxd5 not 4.c4) or the Exchange Variation of the Slav. Obviously the question is if Black has better, especially by postponing the exchange on d4.
Obviously the conclusion is that the London cannot be as good as the Queen's Gambit 2.c4.
  

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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #118 - 09/14/11 at 14:00:43
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Nietzsche wrote on 06/08/06 at 22:42:56:
Ok. I am getting confused.

Thanks to the new 'Winning with the London" (which sounded almost oxymoronic to me), we're discussing several lines based on d4 and Bf4, and whether white can show an edge.  But is anyone suggesting these lines can offer as much as a standard Queens Gambit?  Or as much as, say, the English?  

I'm enjoying this thread and I appreciate all the lines being thrown around, but at the end of it are we trying to show that the London offers White just as much as the more conventional setups?  Or are we simply trying to show that black cannot equalize by force and white should understand the ensuing middlegame positions better?  I've always thought the London made no real claims at a theoretical advantage but offers a freepass to the middlegame and gives practical advantages OTB.  

Basically, I'm peering into my future and I see a copy of "Winning with the London" being mailed to me from Amazon.com.
I study the lines and find the book well researched and interesting.  Then I ultimately decide that I had a better life in the English and put the book down and go back to studying theory.  

Bottom line: Can the London offer white as much as standard lines , more than the other 'basic systems' or are we playing into thoretical equality but with a "home field advantage"?  

Sincerely,
Nietzsche  

ps - I want to be clear that I'm not trying to disparage the London.  I actually enjoy playing safe, solid, and "boring" openings.  I grew up playing the KIA and I still like Lasker's Defense in the QGD (and neither of these offer much of anything in the critical lines).  {Honestly, I even enjoy playing in Symmetrical English lines.}   Huh

I'm trying to get a feel for the "simple to play" versus "offers an edge" trade-off.  Simple systems tend to make life easier for both players as they don't offer opponents difficult problems to solve but do offer the practioner a way to reach playable middlegames they're comfortable with AND have a social life at the same time.  Which is not such a bad tradeoff, really.  
So, is the London more than the Colle or the Torre?  Or is it more like a Catalan or reversed Grunfeld?  Or is anyone arguing it is as good as mainline Queen's Gambits?  What are these variations being offered as proof for?    




This was a great thought-provoking post and I’d like to hear the thoughts on this as well. Anyone have anything to share?   Undecided
  

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Dragan Glas
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #117 - 12/20/07 at 14:40:22
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Greetings,

As I'm not a subscriber, you'll have to forgive me if I post something with which Eric has already dealt.

On a more general note, I was wondering, is it advisable to "fight fire with fire"?

In other words, answer a "system" with a "system" - in this case, say, the Sicilian Kan - with a view to "move-ordering" the opponent so that their resultant setup is less (least) effective?

In my own games as Black, I've either played Dragons or Reversed Exchange QGDs - having exchanged off the white-squared bishops with Bf5 v Bd3 and Nh5 to get the Bf4/g3 (after White castles king-side!).

The latter opening I've found to be more effective - though perhaps my opponents haven't played the positions as well as they could/should - but then, neither have I.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #116 - 12/19/07 at 23:32:50
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In his last update Eric Prie looks at some Winants games beginning with 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 Nc6 and concludes that Black has equality. I was a bit surprised as the same idea in the Albin's is not impressive according to my sources. Exactly the same position can arise:
A) 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 Nc6 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Be3 iso Winants' 5.Nc3.
B) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.Nc3 exd4 4.Qxd4
White has done extremely well in this variation: 6½/8. My books give the only black win, a corr game by Keres.
4...Nc6 5.Qxd5 Be6 6.Qb5 a6 7.Qa4
a) 7...Bb4 (Keres' move) 8.e3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 Nf6 10.Nf3 Ne4 11.Qc2 Vincent-Krudde, Groningen 1988, Bf5 12.Bd3 Nxf2 13.Bxf5 Nxh1 14.Ba3 with great compensation.
b) 7...Bc5 8.Nf3 Nf6 9.Bg5 h6 10.Bh4 g5 11.Rd1 Husek-Cizmar, SVK 2001. Black missed his chance: Bd7 12.Bg3 Nd4! So White must try 10.Rd1 Bd7 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Ne4 Qe7 13.Nxc5 Qxc5 but Black might have decent compensation thanks to his lead in development.
Will this justify 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 as well or should London practicioners turn back to 2.Nf3 ?
  

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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #115 - 06/18/07 at 10:22:32
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TopNotch wrote on 06/17/07 at 23:24:57:
I don't think you will find much detail in previous threads about this, for that you need to be a Dpawn Specials subscriber.

I would have thought it was too risky playing the London nowadays and not subscribing - look what happened to London expert Stefanova against Matthieu Cornette in March, Matthieu just followed Eric's analysis and got a winning position straight out of the opening with Black! Wink
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #114 - 06/17/07 at 23:29:23
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/16/07 at 09:37:47:
Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
2.Bf4!? This is the modern way of playing the London with white having an opening advantage against 3...c5.

Hasn't Eric (Prié) shown that this is good for Black? Wink

Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
I’m also a fan of the idea of   1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 d5 3.e3 c5!? 4.dxc5!? ( I've won big with this one...)  4... Qa5+ 5.Nc3 etc..

Again, according to the ChessPub Guide "giving up the center can seldom be right in the London System", and Eric showed that 4...e6 is just good for Black, or am I missing something?


Not only 4...e6 is good for Black, but also 4...Nc6.

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #113 - 06/17/07 at 23:24:57
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Paul123 wrote on 06/17/07 at 15:48:22:
Hmmm...I didn't know about Prie's analysis.. Although I do rememeber something here about an early Qb6.

No grumps here. If it was looked at in earlier threads..cool. I'll  find it.

I will assume Kamsky's  5 Bb5 was an attempt to answer Prie's work.  That would explain the eratic move


I don't think you will find much detail in previous threads about this, for that you need to be a Dpawn Specials subscriber.

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #112 - 06/17/07 at 15:48:22
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Hmmm...I didn't know about Prie's analysis.. Although I do rememeber something here about an early Qb6.

No grumps here. If it was looked at in earlier threads..cool. I'll  find it.

I will assume Kamsky's  5 Bb5 was an attempt to answer Prie's work.  That would explain the eratic move
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #111 - 06/16/07 at 14:40:01
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agree Mr Kosten.

Unfortunately it appears that a number of posts not just here in this thread but elsewhere refer to topics already covered in some depth. Nothing personal intended, so no individuals should get in a grump.

Perhaps members could use the search function first, or perhaps just potter through past postings by Prie or whomever depending on section,  then post. Perhaps buy the appropriate books, chug thru, then post with queries based on this.

Prie's stuff plus London system book pretty well covers all at the moment. read 'em! Wink

kind regards

Bibs



  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #110 - 06/16/07 at 09:37:47
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Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
2.Bf4!? This is the modern way of playing the London with white having an opening advantage against 3...c5.

Hasn't Eric (Prié) shown that this is good for Black? Wink

Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
I’m also a fan of the idea of   1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 d5 3.e3 c5!? 4.dxc5!? ( I've won big with this one...)  4... Qa5+ 5.Nc3 etc..

Again, according to the ChessPub Guide "giving up the center can seldom be right in the London System", and Eric showed that 4...e6 is just good for Black, or am I missing something?
« Last Edit: 06/16/07 at 11:36:58 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #109 - 06/16/07 at 06:06:09
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Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 2.Bf4!? This is the modern way of playing the London with white having an opening advantage against 3...c5. ( if  3…Bf5!?  then I like  4. f3!? with c4 soon to follow…but this is for another thread)  

2... d5 3.e3 c5   "the standard 4.c3 gets white into the middle game with chances"  4...Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Qb3   (Black’s queen will be misplaced on the queen side.)
   


Isn't that just the main line of the London, when it's White's queen that seems a bit misplaced on the queenside?  After 6...c4 I already prefer Black (though it's probably only equal).  For instance, 7.Qc2 Bf5! shows the great job White's queen is doing on that side of the board.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #108 - 06/16/07 at 00:44:00
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Since we were discussing “systems” on another thread... And me being an amateur or patzer…(you decide. Just don’t tell me!)  

Kamsky recently played a strange game in the Candidates Match vs Gelfand

(1) Kamsky (2705) - Gelfand (2733) [D02]
FIDE candidates Matches Elista, Kalmykia Russia, 08.06.2007
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 Nc6 5.Bb5?! cxd4 6.exd4 Qa5+ 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.0–0 e6 9.h3 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 Rc8 11.Rfd1 Be7 12.Bf1 0–0 13.Ne2 b5 14.c3 b4 15.Qd3 Qb6 16.cxb4 Nxb4 17.Qb3 Ne4 18.a3 Nc6 19.Qxb6 axb6 20.b4 g5 21.Be3 Nd6 22.Nc1 f5 23.Nb3 Nc4 24.b5 Nd8 25.a4 Nb7 26.Bc1 f4 27.Be2 Bb4 28.Ra2 Nbd6 29.Bd3 Ra8 30.Kf1 Nxb5 31.Rc2 Nbd6 32.Bd2 Rxa4 33.Bxb4 Rxb4 34.Nc1 Nf5 35.Bxf5 Rxf5 36.Nd3 Rb3 37.Ra2 Rf7 38.Ke2 Nd6 39.Rda1 Nb5 40.Kd2 Nxd4 41.Rc1 Rb5 42.Rc8+ Rf8 43.Rc7 Ra5 44.Rb2 Rf7 45.Rc8+ Kg7 46.Ne5 Rb7 47.h4 gxh4 48.Rb4 Ra2+ 49.Kd3 Nf5 50.Rxf4 Rba7 51.Rc3 R7a3 52.Rxa3 Rxa3+ 53.Ke2 b5 54.Rg4+ Kf6 55.Nd3 Ra8 56.Kd2 e5 57.Rb4 e4 58.Nc5 Rg8 0–1


1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 2.Bf4!? This is the modern way of playing the London with white having an opening advantage against 3...c5. ( if  3…Bf5!?  then I like  4. f3!? with c4 soon to follow…but this is for another thread)  

2... d5 3.e3 c5   "the standard 4.c3 gets white into the middle game with chances"  4...Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Qb3   (Black’s queen will be misplaced on the queen side.)

I’m also a fan of the idea of   1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 d5 3.e3 c5!? 4.dxc5!? ( I've won big with this one...)  4... Qa5+ 5.Nc3 etc..
I’ll stop here because I want to highlight Kamsky’s  5th move


Kamsky played 5.Bb5?!   What is the point of this?   IMO This does nothing to bolster the pawn at d4 (i.e. the center .... We all know It is very critical in the London to keep the center strong and intact, then start play on the wings...Kamsky new this! What was he doing? I can’t figure it out…  
5...cxd4 6.exd4 Qa5+!? 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.0-0 8...e6 9.h3 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 Rc8 11.Rfd1 The pawn is weak and white must defend it 11...Be7 12.Bf1 0-0 and Black has equalized.
Even with 8.h3 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 e6 10.0-0 Be7 11.Bxc6+ bxc6 12.Qd3 0-0 13.Rfe1 Qb4 14.Rab1 c5 the pawn at d4 is weak and white must attend to it...
5.Bb5?! clearly isn't a good move. Does someone see something I don’t?    
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #107 - 08/07/06 at 13:44:21
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In the ebook I could not find yet games to d4 d5 2 Bf4 (Nf3) e6 3.Nf3 (Bf4) Bd6.

I saw that this move order is recommanded by argaad in the book "meeting d4". I used to play this line in Blitz and my resultas were rather poor.

What is the general assessment in this line?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #106 - 06/29/06 at 20:29:27
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The discussion on

8.Bd3  Nh5

is continued at the following forum:

" Re: A new look at the London System"

I deal with that line in a discussion with Tafl.  Its a creative, fresh, and perhaps dynamic way of dealing with it.


BladezII

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