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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" games. (Read 10721 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #18 - 08/03/05 at 18:56:48
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Thanks MNb and Willempie for answering my subquestion.  I'll definitely be trying out those variations for the times I lack the courage to play the King's Gambit (which contrary to TopNotch's post is actually a forced win -- it's just hard to remember all the analysis. Roll Eyes  ).
  
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Willempie
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #17 - 08/03/05 at 08:32:36
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MNb isn't 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 0-0 supposed to be more precise than 4...c6?  After 4...0-0 5.Nf3 now Black can play 5...Nc6 which I thought was solidly equal.  Is there a way for White to maintain some kind of initiative here.  (Or pose some problems?)  I don't know the theory on this old system.  Does 0-0 somehow prematurely commit Black or does it give him more flexibility (...d6 or ...d5 in one go for example).  Or is this not what you meant at all?   Smiley

The variation you give 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 0-0 5.Nf3 Nc6 I often got against stronger players by transposition (from the TK). It is a real point scorer for white. 6 Bg5 and now black should play 6 .. Be7 (or Bb4), but in my experience almost never does and plays 6 .. d6 (sometimes with 6..h6 7 Bh4 flicked in) and then is in big trouble after 7 Nd5. Basically you're playing a giouco piannissimo (Canal variation), where black has made the huge error of castling too early. He should only castle when either white has castled or when the Bg5 Nd5 moves are out of the air or harmless.
Check the game Larsen-Kuzmin from 1978 as one of the very rare examples of this variation, where black plays the best moves but still gets mopped up by Bent Larsen.

@Mnb the variation you give with the black gambit on the e5 variation is indeed the most dangerous for white, but I think it was discussed in an older thread.

PS for the "Italian repertoire" there is a book from Harding titled "Evans gambit and a system against the Two knights" from 1996. It gives a complete repertoire for white after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4. It is quite well written and gives enough analysis, also on the basic questions which always pop up when starting on a new variation (like what to play after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 d4 Nxe4?). It is a bit dated on the main variations (like Mnb's variation), but not that dated as the variations are not really favourites among the grandmasters.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #16 - 08/03/05 at 05:30:27
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1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 0-0 might be imprecise because of 5.Bg5!? and White can delay castling.
  

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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #15 - 08/02/05 at 23:46:18
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I am going to have to agree with Top Notch on this one.  For anyone under 2200 it is a great opening with lots of opportunities to play calm (standard play with d3) or wild (Urussoff Gambit - 1.e4e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 or the Boden-Kieseritzky Gambit - 3.Nf3  N xe4 4.Nc3 for example) You could also play for a transposition into many of the Vienna lines as suggested by Emms in Attacking with 1.e4.  All versions lead to either fireworks in the opening or a complex middle game with most pieces still on the board. 

One of the things I really like about the opening is that it leads to a lot of transpositions to the Two Nights.  Of course that  is a very reputable defence (maybe even the best possible one to most of the setups) but only if black knows what they are doing.  If they have been tricked into it and don't know the opening, they can die very quickly.

I have played almost all of the versions at one time or another and enjoyed them all.  Good sources for study would be Emm's book as mentioned above which also gives a complete repertoire to other defences or The Bishop's Opening Explained by Gary Lane which seems to cover virtually every possible transposition (even including the Evens gambit.)   As many people have said elsewhere, if your goal is to become grandmaster strength, you might do better learning the Spanish.  For the rest of us though, I highly recommend the Bishops Opening.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #14 - 08/02/05 at 23:27:23
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Incidentally, (and I know this is sorta off track of the original topic, but if one chooses the Bishop's Opening as the more "respectable" opening then it is also sorta on track) in his interesting "Grandmaster Secrets: Openings", Soltis recommends the following variation for White as "Low maintenance, low risk".  1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Bc5 5.Nf3 d6 6.Na4!? (Soltis' marks) 6...Bb6 7.c3 Be6 8.Bb5 0-0 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Bg5.  He doesn't attach any evaluation at the end but clearly he at least thinks it gives White a little something to play for.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #13 - 08/02/05 at 23:20:36
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MNb isn't 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 0-0 supposed to be more precise than 4...c6?  After 4...0-0 5.Nf3 now Black can play 5...Nc6 which I thought was solidly equal.  Is there a way for White to maintain some kind of initiative here.  (Or pose some problems?)  I don't know the theory on this old system.  Does 0-0 somehow prematurely commit Black or does it give him more flexibility (...d6 or ...d5 in one go for example).  Or is this not what you meant at all?   Smiley
  
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MNb
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #12 - 08/02/05 at 22:55:40
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Some posters recommend an Italian repertoire with 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.e5. I have very good results with the Black gambit with d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5! Against 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Black can try b5 6.Bf1 Nd4. This is the kind of opening Smyslov_Fan should teach her pupil to play with Black, not with White.
So I largely agree with TopNotch. Glenn, I have solved the 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 (4.Nf3 d6 5.c3 c6 is a dull symmetrical line) c6 problem: 5.Nf3 is an Italian with colours reversed. It is one of the slow lines though and Black can hold equality with some precise play.
The King's Gambit of course also sprang to my mind, but is a bit sophisticated these days. And on her level she might meet quite often irregular side lines, which means that she has to do a lot of study without much chance to apply it.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #11 - 08/02/05 at 16:00:08
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Btw it was this webpage that got me interested in the Ponziani http://www.gambitchess.com/ponz.htm.

Hmmm...Can't remember any threads on the Ponziani here however.... I thought all openings had been discussed by now  Wink
  
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #10 - 08/02/05 at 12:35:15
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I agree with TalJechin on the King's Gambit option.

Alternatively, how about the Moller Attack of the Giuco Piano or the Evans?? If black chooses to play the 2 kts defense, i think its also an interesting game especially if black allows the Fried Liver.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #9 - 08/02/05 at 12:16:32
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I've played the Bishop's Opening quite a lot but what is the best way to proceed after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5?  Didn't you (Topnotch) show that 4.Nc3 0-0 5.f4 was weak due to 5...exf4 6.Bxf4 c6?  Should White try 4.Nf3 and c3 here?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #8 - 08/02/05 at 11:47:02
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@Smyslov_Fan

Ok, my turn now.  Grin

Teach her the Bishop's Opening, that will solve all your problems as her Coach, and her parents will be so impressed that they will probably give you a raise.

The Bishop's Opening has tremendous scope for all kinds of chess styles and temperments. It canbe played with the Caveman like bluntness of a Gambiteer or with the subtle nuance of a Karpov. As a bonus the Bishop's Opening side steps the currently popular and annoying Petroff and is also useful as a way of introducing gambit happy youngsters to the more reliable and enduring methods of the Rolls Royce of all 1.e4 e5 Openings, the Ruy Lopez.

The Bishop's Opening constitutes a repertoire for life as its Bullet Proof, You can add other Openings to your arsenal, but you will never have to discard this faithful friend when times get hard.

You ever have those moments when you simply don't want to face your oppenents Marshall Attack to the Ruy Lopez. Perhaps you are not in a mood to face the Elephant Gambit or Latvian Gambit either, in those cases simply wheel out the all purpose Bishop's Opening and you are on your way.

Currently the Bishop's Opening is Sergey Tiviakov's weapon of choice, not a bad endorsement I would say, and for what its worth I give it my seal of approval too.  8)

No need to say it...... your'e welcome.

Toppers  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Willempie
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #7 - 08/02/05 at 11:34:38
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I am unsure how the USCF translates into ELO, but I am guessing it is around 1700.
So if you want something sharp yet reliable I would recommend the Italian complex (1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4). On the Two knights play the variation Photophore recommends, On 3.. Bc5 you can play main line Giouco or the Evans. It will involve some work naturally, but those systems are quite tactical and have many common themes. If you feel uncomfortable with one line you can also switch quite quickly to a more sound or agressive system without having to rework the rest.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #6 - 08/02/05 at 06:12:07
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You can choose Scotch gambit , but the true one :
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Bc4 ,that usually leads to
4 d4 variation of 2 Knights Defense , by 4...Nf6 ,
and now "modern" variation 5 e5 fulfills every of your requirements
  
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MNb
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #5 - 08/02/05 at 05:45:43
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As a former Danish specialist I can tell you, that it is not a good idea to switch to the Göring Gambit (the Scottish Gambit is 4.Bc4). As the resulting positions are similar, it make no sense to me either, to play some Classical Italian Gambit/Max Lange either.
I would suggest either the Belgrade Gambit - beneath there is a big thread on it - or the Bishop's game. The latter contains some slow variations though.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #4 - 08/02/05 at 05:23:28
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I would go directly for the Spanish - an opening likely to be useful for the rest of his career. But maybe the Worrall  attack (the 5.Qe2 version)may be a useful transitional tool. Similar ideas - slightly different variations. Have a look at Tiviakov's games with it.
  

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