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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" games. (Read 10590 times)
basqueknight
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #33 - 08/19/05 at 20:21:53
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Somthing i like for similar reasons that top notch gives is the Kings indian attack. It can be played by any temprament. rather subtle or blunt as hell. I like it because no matter how im feeling i can play it. I must admit i am a theory addict and i love the lopez and if i was looking for a quick weapon to bring home points it would be the exchange variation or the spanish four knights. but the kia is a quick learn.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #32 - 08/11/05 at 08:48:27
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Why would you want to teach anyone to push their f-pawn?
Wink


Well, we all have our pet opinions...

Anyway, the following game example indicates that it could be worth the time to study the KG at an early age, so you won't play like this recent high rated encounter:

Gashimov,V (2594) - Graf,A (2605) [C34]
15th ETC Gothenburg SWE ( 8 )  06.08.2005

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nh5 5.Bc4?! d5 6.Be2? White could at least captured en passant as now he's just a whole tempo down on one of the main lines... 

White is a 19 yo with an impressive rating, but doesn't it look like he skipped a lesson on the Open Games? Wink
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #31 - 08/07/05 at 15:44:56
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[quote] Sorry about not responding to your query Glen, nevertheless I see you got some feedback. I have not looked at 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 0-0 in a while, but 4...0-0 is certainly not a mistake or inaccuracy. What the 4...0-0 move-order does is force White to abandon any f4 ideas and choose other more sedate paths, namely 5.Bg5 or 5.Nf3 with a more or less balanced struggle in prospect.  Topnotch [/quote]

Quite alright!  One can't always expect to get all the answers for free (or right away).  After 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 0-0, I suppose Black might try a setup with ...c6 to stop any Nd5 ideas.
  
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #30 - 08/05/05 at 14:55:03
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Wow, somehow I failed to add this topic to my notify list and thus missed a lot of the action. Grin

Sorry about not responding to your query Glen, nevertheless I see you got some feedback. I have not looked at 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 0-0 in a while, but 4...0-0 is certainly not a mistake or inaccuracy. What the 4...0-0 move-order does is force White to abandon any f4 ideas and choose other more sedate paths, namely 5.Bg5 or 5.Nf3 with a more or less balanced struggle in prospect.

Now I would like to address some of the suggestions put forward to Smyslov_Fan as would be replacements/upgrades from the Danish Gambit.

1) Ponziani Opening - This is a dead end, no future in it so don't waste your time teaching it as a repertoire weapon, unless from the black side.

2) Goring Gambit, Scotch Gambit, Max Lange, Vienna Gambit: These are all fun against unprepared opponents, but against booked up opponents are totally useless. Dead End.

3) Belgrade Gambit - See my protracted debate with Bruce Monson somewhere on here. Long story short, another dead end, it simply lacks enough scope for an improving youngster.

4) Giouco Piano - Not a bad choice, but you will need answers to the Petroff and a slew of weird and whacky Gambit attempts by black though. Provided you have covered the bases the Giouco is another Opening that can serve a player for life.    

5) Kings Gambit - The positions are way too absurd to teach a youngster systematically as a repertoire choice. Stay far away from it, you can always return to the Kings Gambit later if you are still her Coach.

6) Scotch Game - Not a bad choice, but I think youngsters should be introduced to systems where building a classical pawn centre (c3, d4, e4) is still an option. It is with this type of centre that White retains the best chance of a sustainable advantage.

The advantage of the Bishop's Opening lies in its scope, and with it it is possible to learn how to play every type of 1.e4 e5 position, Closed or Open. It is the kind of Opening that should be included in any good 1.e4 e5 Repertoire.

Regual practicioners of The Bishop's Opening include: GM John Nunn, GM Victor Bologan, GM John Emms, GM Sergey Kudrin, GM Nikola Mitkov and new recruit GM Sergey Tiviakov.

Hey John Emms beat Vishy Anand with the Bishop's Opening when they were both jnrs, could you want a better endorsement than that.  Cheesy

Toppers  Grin



 
  

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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #29 - 08/05/05 at 10:09:49
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Another question could be, what other openings could benefit from knowledge of this open game - e.g. the KG prepares you for Dutch type of positions, as well as anything with the f-pawn advanced, e.g: Grand Prix Attack, Closed SI.

Why would you want to teach anyone to push their f-pawn?
Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #28 - 08/05/05 at 09:51:17
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In fact, I expect to have to make some serious changes to the way she plays the Sicilian as well.


Yes, and the very best way for a 1200-rated player, or indeed a 1700-to-1800-rated one, to play the Sicilian Defense is not to play it.  White has enormous leeway already on move two, and most of the non-open replies make it very difficult for Black to take the initiative (by contrast after 1...e5, just one poor move by White produces a role reversal).  Even if White plays the Open Sicilian, the only sound method by which Black can obtain a more or less open position is the Sveshnikov, which I think is too sophisticated for players at this level. 

I've taught many young players, and I simply would not have a student who didn't answer 1. e4 with 1...e5.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #27 - 08/05/05 at 03:15:39
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Another related question could be, what open game offers the most diversity? And in that case the KG is hard to match I think.

Another question could be, what other openings could benefit from knowledge of this open game - e.g. the KG prepares you for Dutch type of positions, as well as anything with the f-pawn advanced, e.g: Grand Prix Attack, Closed SI.

The Ruy could be useful for understanding pawn chains and closed benonis, though the KID/Full Benoni as black would also do that. I'm not sure if the other open games would be useful in other openings, since I have to little experience with them. I find the Scotch interesting, but it's probably a bit too advanced strategically for a young player.

Anyway, maybe the rest of her repertoire (or intended rep) should be considered when choosing her open game?  Undecided
  
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #26 - 08/04/05 at 22:16:00
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Urusov recommended the Urussoff Gambit. Problem is, that 4...Nf6 directly transposes to the Two Knights Defense again.
If Smyslov's fan really wants to avoid slow manoeuvring, then the Bishop's Game indeed is not a good idea. One suggestion not made yet: the Vienna with 3.f4!? This is theoretical OK for Black, but can lead to interesting open positions.
  

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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #25 - 08/04/05 at 15:10:01
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In that case I really suggest the Italian complex (just dont play it with d3). There is no better way of learning about combinational ideas combined with learning about the use of the center and the initiative in my completely objective Grin opinion.
You can alway downgrade later to the bishop's opening  Wink as it is imo a bit more sophisticated to be able to generate the pressure play you'd want, not to mention the focus on move orders.

As an aside. How many kids do you teach and in what range (Elo not that US system)? I did it a couple of years back for kids from 6-12, but didnt do much with openings, more with combinations. I am thinking of taking it up again, but it takes up a lot of time.
  

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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #24 - 08/04/05 at 13:35:34
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Thank you all for your suggestions! Cheesy  You have given me a great deal to think about. Smiley

As I expected, several of you recommended the King's Gambit, which may make for a nice secondary or tertiary choice.  I was surprised by the large number of suggestions to play the Bishop's opening.  Your vocal support of this opening will make me re-evaluate it.

I have to admit that the Bishop's Opening with an early d3 doesn't appeal much to me, and the recent article by GM Susan Polgar in Chess Life makes it even less appealing.  Markovich states my opinion on the system better than I could myself!  8)

I didn't give the student's rating or playing level because it might have biased your thoughts on how realistic her goal of being state champion is.  Her current rating is only about 1200, but she is definitely talented and I believe I can help her to boost her playing level to around 1700-1800 in just one year (though I don't plan to make such an ambitious claim to her father Lips Sealed).  One of her stated goals is to win the State Championship, and to do that one has to be able to play at least one tournament at or close to USCF master strength (about 2100 FIDE).

In order to be a State High School Champion, one had better be ready to learn some theoretical lines.  Even if those theoretical lines are known only by a handful of players (such as in the Bishop's Opening), a strong player has to be able to form opinions about established lines.

I don't mind teaching my students how to face other openings such as the Petroff's (which isn't seen much in this state) or Latvian or any of a host of other openings.  In fact, I expect to have to make some serious changes to the way she plays the Sicilian as well.  Tongue

If I do choose the 2.Bc4 lines, it will be probably be purely as a transitional opening for her until we can learn some of the more complicated lines of another opening well.

Again I thank you all, and I hope you keep making suggestions!  I will have to make up my mind next week and I'll keep you posted on whatever progress we make. 8)
  
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #23 - 08/04/05 at 11:04:58
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May I suggest the Urusoff Gambit (also spelled "Urusov")?   Grin  It goes 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4.  Likely your student has the book "Danish Dynamite" on the shelf which offers good coverage, especially of better Danish transpositions.

The line receives fairly good coverage by GM Susan Polgar in her latest Chess Life column (August 2005, pp. 36-37).  After reading her article, I decided to post a complete Urusov bibliography at my blog:

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2005/08/urusoff-urusov-gambit-b...

I think it will score well through 2100 range, at which point it is still about equal and therefore a safe choice against stronger players.  In fact, almost all strong players transpose to the Two Knights Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nc6), so once you learn the basics of the Urusov you can just focus on that line.
  
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #22 - 08/04/05 at 10:50:09
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Hi,

I have a new student who wants to stop playing the Danish (which I think is a good idea ~ probably why her parents chose me) and move to openings that score better against the best high school players in the state (1800-2200 USCF). 

I was planning to recommend the Scotch Gambit as a reasonable transitional opening (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4 4.c3), but 4...Nf6! is supposed to lead to immediate equality while 4...d5!? may even give Black a slight edge.

So  I was thinking of just going straight into the Scotch proper, but I don't have much practical experience playing this on the White side in serious games.  I prefer Black after 4.Nd4 Bc5 5.Nc6 Qf6!  Lips Sealed

This leaves me in a quandry.  Do I recommend a system that is still somewhat popular but that I don't believe in, or do I find something else?  This student needs an opening that is not the Spanish.  Shocked

I am looking for a theoretically sound opening that is sharp, dynamic and fun.  What openings do you recommend that fits this description???


You haven't said what this player's own rating is (nor, so far as I can see, has anyone asked)!  It would be helpful to know something about her strengths and weaknesses, but what most players at this level need to learn are (a) tactics (b) theoretical endings and (c) how to play wide-open positions, all of which are quite fundamental.  All also are much more important than choice of opening system.

Systems that have good theoretical repute are not necessarily the best ones for young, developing players to play.  Indeed, the theoretical merit of the line chosen has very little to do with the outcome of games of chess at this (or probably any) level.  If this player isn't able to score well against players with ratings 1800-2200, I am sure that it has much less to do with her choice of opening than with her merits as a player.

The Danish Gambit is a pretty good practical choice for players below 2000 and excellent for a young player's chess education, notwithstanding that it is somewhat unsound; likewise the Goering, the Smith-Morra and the Blackmar-Diemer Gambits.  Only if this player were so formidable that people prepared for her would I fret very much over the objective soundness of her systems.

I also think that the King's Gambit, particularly with 3. Bc4, is a fine choice for players at this level (and, if it makes any difference, it is probably also sound). 

I would not have a player below 2000 playing "open" systems that in fact do not lead to an early opening of files, examples being the Spanish, the Guioco Piano with d3 and the Bishops Opening with an early Nf3.  These often produce slow, maneuvering games, which are not very useful vehicles for learning chess fundamentals.  On the other hand, the Scotch Four Knights leads to all sorts of interesting, open play. 

Although I agree that 4...Nf6! is a fully adequate theoretical answer to the Scotch Gambit, that certainly would not stop me from recommending that system to a young player.  The chess that results from 4...Nf6  5. O-O is quite interesting, and good for teaching what a player at this level should know.

With the Black pieces, all young and developing players should answer 1. e4 with 1...e5, and all should play the Two Knights Defense.  Versus 1. d4, 1. c4 and 1. Nc3, the Tarrasch is the best way to insist upon a more or less open position.
  

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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #21 - 08/04/05 at 10:34:00
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I dunno about the bishop's opening. never tried it before. But somehow I feel kinda weird even thinking abt it cos it violates that law abt developing kts before bishops.

So much so that even in my KG games my 3rd move is Nf3. 3.Bc4 just seems too weird despite what TJ has outlined & recommended in his new book. Some kinda psychological or intellectual block on my part most likely.

perhaps its time for a paradigm shift on my part Undecided
  

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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #20 - 08/04/05 at 01:51:37
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It seems most people here agree you would need to select a system where the bishop goes to c4, be it the KG, bishop's opening, Vienna or the Giuoco.

BtW Mnb Tsjigorin claimed he had played that exact same game four times before iirc
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Danish gambiteer switching to "respectable" ga
Reply #19 - 08/03/05 at 22:07:47
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In addition to Willempie's post about the danger of castling too early, I want to give a fantastic game, which is not in my database:

Knorre - Tsjigorin, 1900

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.o-o? (questionmark by Pachman) d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4? g5 8.Bg3 h5! 9.Nxg5 h4 10.Nxf7 hxg3 11.Nxd8 Bg4! 12.Qd2 Nd4 13.Nc3 (13.h3 Ne2+ 14.Kh1 Rxh3+!!) Nf3+ 0-1.

To be honest, I am not sure if 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 o-o 5.Nf3 or 5.Bg5 is best. But you have got the idea: Black has castled, White won't.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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