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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C02: Milner-Barry Gambit (Read 37178 times)
bragesjo
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #36 - 02/25/24 at 17:52:16
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I am no expert on the line but I created a acount at Chessable and bought The GothamChess 1. e4 Repertoire some dags ago. Engines today are much different they see long term compensation much better than only 4 years ago. They also se longer before horizon effekt. I can not give an entire chapter but many lines are covered. I dont think white is better evolution is 0.00 when black has an extra pawn. The Bc5 line is met by Nxd4 Bxd4 Qh5 quiting some players games. I have not computer checked the entire analys but to my human eye whites play look more simple but computers says 0.00. I also think books get outdated much faster today. At any rated the original idea with Nc3 is evaluated as much better for black.
« Last Edit: 02/26/24 at 09:00:30 by bragesjo »  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #35 - 02/25/24 at 15:30:03
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I notice that after 9. Nbd2 Bc5 (back in '92 Psakhis called 9...Nc6 "the simplest"), 10. b4 was called "perhaps the most critical line" in the June 2019 update.
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #34 - 02/25/24 at 13:40:50
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Bragesjo,

You might look at the game Smerdon v Sadler. Some years ago, but iirc that ...b6 kinda busted the line.

Looked it up, and was discussed here prior:
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1403291137/12

Game link: https://old.chesstempo.com/gamedb/game/3590261

Have newer and more powerful engines found anything here to resurrect white...?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #33 - 02/25/24 at 10:21:18
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Sorry to resurect an old thread but by accident I came a cross something called Smerdon variation in Millner-Barry. After cxd4 cxd4 Bd7 00 Nxd4 white plays Nbd2 and computers think full compensation here as well.

At any rate I prefire Hector variation but I think it is intersting that computer thinks full compensation in many lines except the in original Millner Bary idea where it preferces black.
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #32 - 09/02/23 at 22:25:21
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bragesjo - Thanks for the informative update.  It's interesting that that the Hector Gambit approach is also being tried in positions arising from ...Bd7 instead of ...Qb6, but it seems reasonable to explore the idea in similar positions, given its success in the ...Qb6 line. 

The May 2023 French update even has the game Kulaots-Bacrot, Vrnjacka Banja 2023 where the idea was tried in the 6.a3 line in the French Advance Variation: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3 Nh6 7.Bd3!? cxd4 8.0-0.
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #31 - 08/31/23 at 11:31:48
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I can tell that Robert Ris also goes for Hector gambit in hes 1 e4 attack course and he improves on Coffee House at some points. The gambit is dangereus works in Correspondence Chess as well I think I have 2 wins and 2 draws after 4  games with white. I can also add the Hector first game in the line was when he was black in Slav Queens gambit in 2006 vs Brynell same position arrose but colors reversed and thus opponent extra tempo still a win.

One of my friends has invented "Svensson Gambit" same idee but Bishop at e2 and not d3 still playable. The ide for white is to take back with bpawn. Computers claim full compensation even in this line.

There has also been developments that white plays the same idee as Hector gambit even when black has played Bd7 instead of Qb6, less stronger still full compensation.
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #30 - 08/28/23 at 23:11:11
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AndyFeng35 wrote on 08/28/23 at 18:21:43:
My opinion, if you know how to play against Milner-Barry Gambit, in 75% you will win the game.

Does Black win at the same percentage against the delayed form of the Milner-Barry? FYI - this line goes 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Bd3 cxd4 and now 7.0-0, instead 7.cxd4 as in the original M-B Gambit. The delayed version is often credited to Johnny Hector, who apparently played it as early as 2008. It really caught on when Carlsen played it against Harikrishna in a 2020 blitz game.

The delayed M-B has been more successful than the original version and has been recommended in a number of White 1.e4 repertoire books, including Gawain Jones' Coffeehouse Repertoire.  See this thread

https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1634744219

for a short discussion. The delayed M-B/Hector Variation is also covered in the November 2020 French update:

https://www.chesspublishing.com/content/2/nov20.htm#adv
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #29 - 08/28/23 at 18:21:43
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My opinion, if you know how to play against Milner-Barry Gambit, in 75% you will win the game. It can be scarry for the beginners only.
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #28 - 11/29/13 at 06:35:54
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Rc8! I think this move is better than Ne7.. 12.  Kh1 Bc5 13.  Bg5 h6 14.  Bd2 Ne7 15.  Rac1 O-O-/+ This move might be the improvement *
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #27 - 11/28/13 at 12:37:10
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I think both 15.f4 and 15.Rad1 are better moves than 15.Rac1 in your line
after 15.f4 white can play Rf3 (with a possible Rg3 or Rh3 to follow), although black should still be better I think
also interesting is 12...Qh4 13.f4 Nh6
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #26 - 11/27/13 at 18:29:49
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 11/27/13 at 06:32:17:
I don't think that your 14. Rf3 is the best what is your plan with it?


If you want to argue to my post (7 years old !? ) you can do, of course...but what else you propose for White. ? (another move than 14.Rf3)

It's easy to dismiss one move without any concrete variations or ideas for both sides...For example: I didn't reply on CanadianClub last post, because woman champion's video was nice to watch and chess interesting, but my first idea is a quick Black reply ...f6!? to Nun gambit. But I have no time to analyze or search for games, hence I did'nt post because my arguments not ready.

****

I just checked your posts in other threads on chesspub: only one sentence or no idea to propose...to some extend some others went much more annoyed by them:

Quote:
To help a new member (welcome! Smiley) the questions that you ask across the different threads, which tend toward the same idea (tell me what to do in line x) do tend to annoy people quite quickly. Lots of people are friendly, there is plenty of good will, and much help offered.
But it is give and take. Bring something to the table.
Offer ideas.



  

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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #25 - 11/27/13 at 06:32:17
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dom wrote on 08/20/05 at 05:14:48:
Mnb: I disagree...a) Bb5 not available because Black has a knight on c6 square b) White can't play Nc3 and cxd4 next move.

14...Bc5! is Piskov's idea, but it's not the end of the game... 15.Bxa6 (15.Bb5? Qf2 16.Bxd7+ Kxd7 17.Qg4? Nd3 Kosten and Harding ; 15.Bxh7 Qf2 17.Qxf2 Bxf2 18.Bb1 ooo! Bellet-Apicella,France 1995 (Harding or Kosten) better for Black than 18...Ke7  Blasek-Kishnev,Gelsenkirchen 1991 (MCO and Lane) with small advantage to White according to Lane - "Beating the French" after 20.Rf1) Qf2 16.Qxf2 Bxf2 Organdzijew-Drasko,Skopje 1992 (ECG) and now White can try 17.Bb5!? =

Best move for White is 14.Rf3! (and not 14.Rd1) and then 14...Bc5 (if 14...Nxd3 then White seems to have small advantage due to blockade on d4 square with he knight)  15.Be3 Qxd3 16.Bxc5 Qxe2 17.Nxe2 Bb5 18.Nd4! Nc6 19.Rc3=

At the beginning of the line: 6...Bd7 (6...cxd4 is the accurate move) is considered dubious because of  famous game Nimzowitsch-Salwe,Karlsbad 1911 (or gamesLowe-Kennedy, 1849 (ECG)  ; Nimzowitsch-Tarrasch,San Sebastian 1912 (Watson))  after the move 7.dxc5!

My best recorded line for White is Rubinetti-Ivkov, Palma de Majorque 1970 (Lane et Zlotnik)




I don't think that your 14. Rf3 is the best what is your plan with it? What will you play after 14....Rc8 N if 15. a3 then Bc5 16. Qd1 Nxd3 17.Rxd3 and Qf2...I think black is fine
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #24 - 11/20/13 at 14:06:39
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Quote:
The only way to try with white is the Nbd2 line, as played by Jiri Nun iirc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGs7bmXSrSE

It seems dangerous for black, isn't it?
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #23 - 11/18/13 at 10:34:32
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Have a look here for MBG analysis. There is also a large database of MBG games. Smiley hullchessclub.com
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #22 - 10/07/13 at 21:16:37
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SWJediknight wrote on 10/07/13 at 00:23:35:
In Play the French 4 Watson recommends 10...a6, concluding (probably correctly, in my opinion) that Black has some advantage in all lines, and says that 10...Qxe5 is good but there are claims that certain lines may not offer Black enough winning chances.


I always preferred the 10...a6 move instead of 10....Qxe5 variations despite knowing both systems. But in a6 system I replaced a later Nd3 with Bc5.
  

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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #21 - 10/07/13 at 13:31:45
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Thanks all, and, yes, I've edited my White/Black mistake.
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #20 - 10/07/13 at 11:47:05
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MartinC wrote on 10/07/13 at 08:32:45:
It might even need going back to the 2nd edition.... A recent generic book on the advance perhaps? You won't find a repitoire book with it given how effective/clean a6 seems to be.

Given the lack of modern sources/good games you may well do best to analyse it with a decent computer.
(I presume that saying white is doing brilliantly is a typo for black Smiley)


@ Martin C
Perhaps this is a blind spot for you: 'Repertoire'.

Yes.
...a6 is the best way.
...Qe5 is just very tricky.
The only way to try with white is the Nbd2 line, as played by Jiri Nun iirc.
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #19 - 10/07/13 at 08:32:45
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It might even need going back to the 2nd edition.... A recent generic book on the advance perhaps? You won't find a repitoire book with it given how effective/clean a6 seems to be.

Given the lack of modern sources/good games you may well do best to analyse it with a decent computer.
(I presume that saying white is doing brilliantly is a typo for black Smiley)
  
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Re: C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #18 - 10/07/13 at 00:23:35
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In Play the French 4 Watson recommends 10...a6, concluding (probably correctly, in my opinion) that Black has some advantage in all lines, and says that 10...Qxe5 is good but there are claims that certain lines may not offer Black enough winning chances.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #17 - 10/06/13 at 21:48:56
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/20/05 at 05:54:18:
Watson recommends either 10...a6 [or] 10...Qe5 which he states "is doing brilliantly theoretically but it is more difficult in practice than 10...a6" (Play The French, Third Edition(2003) p. 53.  his opinion of the entire variation is that "White has little, if anything for the pawn." (p. 56)


Hi all, brand new member and first post here.  This old thread exactly addresses my issue -- I've been searching around looking for exactly how Black is "doing brilliantly theoretically" after 10. Qxe5.  Chessbase reveals that this is indeed a mixed bag in practice, and as mentioned in a post below, you don't see games with this gambit between top GMs.

I don't know whether IM Watson gave any analysis in his 4th edition, because I bought the 3rd ed. mere months before the 4th came out!  Angry  So if anyone knows where to find the theory on this it would be much appreciated.  Although I searched, I didn't find anything on Chesspub pertaining to this particular variation.
« Last Edit: 10/07/13 at 13:29:58 by Billy »  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #16 - 09/03/05 at 01:27:08
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Thanks, french has been a good opening to me.  Even the french exchange Smiley.  Unfortunately they have not given me my floor and I've had some bad tournaments lately, I want that floor!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #15 - 09/02/05 at 21:31:05
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@JE Gutman

Congrats on taking 1-2 in the U2000 National Open this year!  I guess you're a lifetime expert now!
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #14 - 08/25/05 at 01:41:20
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Who said no theory, the whole site from which this forum revolves around is an opening theory site.  I realize you're probably being sarcastic, but considering half the discussions I read on this forum you seem to be part of the 50% that doesn't think the unsound opening they play wins by force.  I forgot to mention that the Bc2 originally mentioned is already worse for white, even worse than the gambit I believe since he is either forced to give up his light squared bishop or castling rights after  e4 e6 d4 d5 e5 c5 c3 Nc6 Nf3 Bd7 Bd3 cd cd Qb6 Bc2 Nb4 where  Bb3 is strongly met by Bb4 when white is clearly worse.  As for the g5 push I mentioned.... when I was working in my head earlier I forgot that after Qxg5 black cannot play 0-0-0, but it is still not clear, for the record fg is close to lost after the simple Ne5, however, I believe my original idea I found over the board is quite strong, Nb4, now the point is really that Qg7 fails to 0-0-0 Rf1 (since there is no fork on the queen anymore) Nd3 Rf2 Nf2+ Kg1 Ng4+ and black is winning if Kf1 Rdg8 and black has a strong attack after Qf7 Nh2 Ke2 Rg2.  If instead of Kf1 white plays Kh1 then Rdg8 Qf7 Rg6! and due to the queen trap threat white must sac a piece, the resulting material imbalance is still quite complicated, but the position is most likely winning for black.  I've only looked at this position quickly, but I'm fairly convinced, feel free to give any improvements over this, I'm quite interested.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #13 - 08/25/05 at 00:25:58
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What about Ng5? No metion of it?
  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #12 - 08/24/05 at 13:57:20
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@jgutman,

Sheesh.  This was supposed to be a discussion without any theory.  Now you go and blow it by quoting one of the leading experts on the line but even finding some independent lines that work.  We don't want the whole world to know that the Milner-Barry is a bust!  Let the players fumble around in the dark, always wondering why GM's never play this line against other GMs.   Tongue
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #11 - 08/24/05 at 11:21:41
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I don't know if I really want to recommend anything that will stop someone from playing the milner-barry, but I actually believe watson's recommended move 13... Bc5 in the 10. a6 line is significantly stronger than 13... Nb4, now the main moves (although there are others) are a3 and Rd1(natural, but nothing special).  After a3 Na5 is a strong response, b4 doesn't work because the knight on c3 is hanging, the line is complicated, but not as complicated as the 10 Qxe5 lines (which are also playable, but difficult).  After Rd1 black has the simple Qf2.  I've had two games (against the same opponent) from this position, the first time my opponent played Qg4, the second time he played Qh5.  In the first game analyzing that position, there are tremendous possibilities that are all very playable for black.  The move i played in the game was Nb4 (stopping Rf1 becasue of Nd3 when smothered mate is threatened and taking the queen loses the queen back right away....) and the pawn at g7 is taboo since Qg7 is strongly met by simple 0-0-0 when both Nd3 and Rhg8 are strong threats.  Watsons immediate 0-0-0 is also good, various players have played g6, also (just thinking blindfold in my head), g5 might be quite interesting giving back the pawn to open the g-file for attack on g2 or to get the pawn right back on e5.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #10 - 08/21/05 at 05:22:30
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OK now, I understand...
8.oo Nb4!? is an interesting alternative given by Zlotnik.
  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #9 - 08/20/05 at 22:37:12
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"First of all, 7.o-o? is incorrect because of Bb5!"
Should have been 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Bd7 8.o-o? Nb4 9.Be2 Bb5! White should play 8.Nc3 to prevent this.

"and now White can try 17.Bb5!? ="
I think Black is somewhat better after Bxb5 18.Nxb5 Ke7.
  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #8 - 08/20/05 at 09:37:01
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Argh, pawn snatchers are among us... Tongue

An uncommon way to play versus pawn snatcher is to keep Black pawn on d4 waiting for dxc3: for example: 6..Bd7?! (6...cxd4!) 7.oo (7.dxc5!) cxd4 8.Qe2 Nge7 9.cxd4 Nxd4 10.Nxd4 Qxd4 11.Nc3 and now Black can play 11...a6; 11...Nc6 ; 11...Qb6 or 11...Ng6!? (Harding) or 11.Nd2 (with the idea Nf3)  or 8.a3 (trying to push Black in a deferred Millner-Barry game with 8..a5) Nge7 9.b4 dxc3 Nxc3

About the "safe" 7.Bc2 : maybe the move could be subject in another thread (what to do in the 7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Nb4! line Steinitz-Burn)

The variation giving one tempo 7.Be2 transposes after 7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Nh6!  (or 8...Nge7) 9.Nc3 Nf5 Na4 but White is not playing for a win but a draw.
  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #7 - 08/20/05 at 07:05:23
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I used to play this gambit a few years ago. Most of the time I got excellent positions. Theoretically it's not that good though. If black knows what he's doing you will struggle.
  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #6 - 08/20/05 at 05:54:18
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dom,

You're right about the Nimzo-Salwe game that Watson cited, but he also implies that the evaluation was biased as a result of the game rather than because of the resulting positions.  However, the question was about the position after 10.Nc3 rather than how best to get there.

Watson recommends either 10...a6 10...Qe5 which he states "is doing brilliantly theoretically but it is more difficult in practice than 10...a6" (Play The French, Third Edition(2003) p. 53.  his opinion of the entire variation is that "White has little, if anything for the pawn." (p. 56)

I personally prefer grabbing the pawn and hanging on for dear life, but as IM Michael Mulyar once told me, I should seriously consider joining Pawn Snatchers Anonymous.  Anyway, with both a good way to accept the gambit and at least one good way to decline it as Black, I think that unless White has something specific in mind, 6.Bd3 belongs on the trash heap of chess opening history.

I think this is the main reason strong masters rarely, if ever, play it against each other.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #5 - 08/20/05 at 05:14:48
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Mnb: I disagree...a) Bb5 not available because Black has a knight on c6 square b) White can't play Nc3 and cxd4 next move.

14...Bc5! is Piskov's idea, but it's not the end of the game... 15.Bxa6 (15.Bb5? Qf2 16.Bxd7+ Kxd7 17.Qg4? Nd3 Kosten and Harding ; 15.Bxh7 Qf2 17.Qxf2 Bxf2 18.Bb1 ooo! Bellet-Apicella,France 1995 (Harding or Kosten) better for Black than 18...Ke7  Blasek-Kishnev,Gelsenkirchen 1991 (MCO and Lane) with small advantage to White according to Lane - "Beating the French" after 20.Rf1) Qf2 16.Qxf2 Bxf2 Organdzijew-Drasko,Skopje 1992 (ECG) and now White can try 17.Bb5!? =

Best move for White is 14.Rf3! (and not 14.Rd1) and then 14...Bc5 (if 14...Nxd3 then White seems to have small advantage due to blockade on d4 square with he knight)  15.Be3 Qxd3 16.Bxc5 Qxe2 17.Nxe2 Bb5 18.Nd4! Nc6 19.Rc3=

At the beginning of the line: 6...Bd7 (6...cxd4 is the accurate move) is considered dubious because of  famous game Nimzowitsch-Salwe,Karlsbad 1911 (or gamesLowe-Kennedy, 1849 (ECG)  ; Nimzowitsch-Tarrasch,San Sebastian 1912 (Watson))  after the move 7.dxc5!

My best recorded line for White is Rubinetti-Ivkov, Palma de Majorque 1970 (Lane et Zlotnik)


  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #4 - 08/19/05 at 15:28:24
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First of all, 7.o-o? is incorrect because of Bb5!
Second 7.Nc3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.o-o a6 11.Qe2 Ne7 12.Kh1 Nc6 13.f4 Nb4 14.Rd1 Bc5! and 15...Qf2 stops even the shade of a white attack.
Third 10...a6 11.Kh1 has done relatively well, but after Qxe5 the inclusion of a6 and Kh1 should benefit Black.
So thumbs down.

You might better try to revive the Alapin Gambit 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Be3 dxe4 4.f3.
  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #3 - 08/19/05 at 15:15:35
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Good idea, Markovich.  Of course, the greatest exemplar of the Advanced Variation is Sveshnikov.  Maybe take a look at some of his games, too.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #2 - 08/19/05 at 13:04:09
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10...a6 puts a stop to all White's fun.  Then White has about half a pawn's compensation for his pawn.

If you want something sharp to play in the Advance, you might look at 4. Nf3, which was upheld from time to time by Keres.  I used it myself with good effect, way back when I was an e4 player.
  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit
Reply #1 - 08/19/05 at 12:53:15
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I guess I don't quite understand what "theory" is.  The Milner-Barry requires both sides (if they both choose to enter the Milner-Barry) to know the line at least fifteen moves deep.  Watson and many others agree that if Black does play the Milner-Barry with his/her eyes wide open s/he'll not only survive, but thrive. 

There are several attacking ideas for White that will win against almost anyone who doesn't know what s/he's doing, but Black has the better chances if s/he does.  Do you have a specific line of the Milner-Barry that you wanted to discuss?
  
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C02: Milner-Barry Gambit
08/19/05 at 11:54:29
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What do you think of the Milner-Barry Gambit (1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 c5 4 c3 Nc6 5 Nf3 Qb6 6 Bd3 Bd7 7 0-0!? cxd4 8 cxd4 Nxd4 9 Nxd4 Qxd4 10 Nc3) as an attacking weapon against the French for white? It cuts out a lot of theory and avoids hideously boring lines like the Fort-Knox variation: 3 Nc3 dxe4 4 Nxe4 Bd7 5 Nf3 Bc6. It seems to work especially well against greedy players who like to take the second pawn.

White can also play safe with 7 Bc2 if he wishes.
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 16:25:01 by dom »  
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