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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to defend against Ruy Lopez (Read 26445 times)
woofwoof
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #26 - 09/27/05 at 11:22:19
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I
Why should Black even bother with all this when he can play the Open Variation.  Sure, Markovich, it's a lot to learn, but it's far less than the main-line closed defenses.

Yes I agree. As far as I'm aware there are 3 main Open Systems which black has at his disposal but there are easily double those in the Closed not including those defenses without 3...a6

If active play is desired  for black - Only the Open & The Marshall can ensure that. There is no other black defense which beats these 2 in terms of active piece play.

*Later Note: the schliemann is also another sharp reply for black, just that i have my reservations against it.

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When I played the Spanish as Black, I liked the Breyer.  But I stopped playing it when I saw some games in the mid- to late 1980s in which White just rolled Black for losing so many tempi with his N. 


Black spends 2 moves to bring his Kt to d7 via b8 & follows up with black g6, Re8 Bf8, While White spends 3 moves to bring his QKt to g3, not to mention the time lost retreating the Bishop from b5 to a4 to b3 to c2. So if anything it is white who is making more repetitive moves. Its a very slow system for both sides (not just the Breyer but the closed defence in general)- Like milking a cow!  In this type of closed setup & long drawn out positional moves its hard to believe that tempo is a critical factor.


« Last Edit: 09/27/05 at 13:05:14 by woofwoof »  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #25 - 09/27/05 at 00:35:43
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I do teach students, and I've seen other teachers teach the Closed Spanish as Black's best defense to children who have no idea who Noah was, let alone what a trap involving his ark is.

I teach the Black side of the closed Spanish occasionally (usually only upon the request of a student), but I try to focus on the ultra-sharp Marshall because it gives such great dividends.  

I think that White's game is much easier to understand than Black's in the Closed Spanish.  After all, simply learning when and how to defend the e5 pawn is daunting enough.  

And then Black has to learn when, how and why to expand on the Q-side, and then to defend against a myriad of threats, including Ng3-f5...

Why should Black even bother with all this when he can play the Open Variation.  Sure, Markovich, it's a lot to learn, but it's far less than the main-line closed defenses.  

When I played the Spanish as Black, I liked the Breyer.  But I stopped playing it when I saw some games in the mid- to late 1980s in which White just rolled Black for losing so many tempi with his N.  

To make things even harder for Black, White is now showing that the old saw about playing h3 before d4 may no longer be true, and the Bc8 doesn't necessarily belong on g4.  It's getting harder and harder for Black.

On the plus side, if you teach a young player to play both sides of the Spanish successfully, you have probably also taught that player innumerable tactical and positional values that will help that player for the rest of his or her life.  Maybe that's why so many from the Old Soviet School learned the Spanish as a first opening?
  
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MNb
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #24 - 09/26/05 at 21:08:12
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"I find more Spiel and more fun in Open Defence"
Your are in the company of Tarrasch, Spielmann and Euwe, so play it!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Markovich
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #23 - 09/26/05 at 12:01:25
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Hi Markovich!
I am not a young player ( I am 78 ) , and , as for me , I find more Spiel and more fun in Open Defence
Why is it not more fashionable?


I also like the Open, but for young players, it's a lot to learn.  This was addressed to teachers, so I assumed young students, or really anyone who is interested less in just having fun and more in getting stronger at chess.

Congratulations on reaching your 78th year!
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #22 - 09/26/05 at 08:31:25
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Hi Chessteachers!
I know you are many on this forum , and maybe some of you can help me
With Black , most players , against Ruy Lopez , choose the closed defense , and I can't understand why
When I look at the standard position , after 9 h3 ,
I can't see any trmp for Black :
- White rule the center
-They have more space , and Black expansion at queenside only gives targets to White
-White is no more behind in development
Then , I ask the question : What is left to Black?
Thanks in advance
Claude Le Page

Not a teacher, but some points.
-Black can challenge the center in many ways, the most ancient one being with c5 as in the Tsjigorin. Another is to put pressure on e4 so as not to allow the manoeuvre Nbd2-f1-g3. This is what happens in the Zaitsev.
-I dont think white has that much more space. If you check some Tsjigorin main lines you can see some very good examples of black taking over the queen side (eg by some combination of Na5, c5, Nc4) while white hasnt got much to put against it.
-Black certainly isnt the one with a development lag. Just check the Breyer where black thinks he has enough time to reroute his knight via b8 to d7. For white it is usually the problem of what to do with the bishop on c1. Very often that bishop just stays there the whole game.

I do think white has the initiative though, which is why I play it with white. However I would return to 1 .. e5 in a minute if my opponent is guaranteed to play the Ruy and not some boring 4-knights or Vienna.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #21 - 09/26/05 at 08:27:44
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Hi Markovich!
I am not a young player ( I am 78 ) , and , as for me , I find more Spiel and more fun in Open Defence
Why is it not more fashionable?
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #20 - 09/26/05 at 07:47:05
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Hi Chessteachers!
I know you are many on this forum , and maybe some of you can help me
With Black , most players , against Ruy Lopez , choose the closed defense , and I can't understand why
When I look at the standard position , after 9 h3 ,
I can't see any trmp for Black :
- White rule the center
-They have more space , and Black expansion at queenside only gives targets to White
-White is no more behind in development
Then , I ask the question : What is left to Black?
Thanks in advance
Claude Le Page


I think that for young and developing players, the Closed Defense is not such a good idea.  As I've said elsewhere, a good, straightforward defense for such players is 3...Nf6  4. 0-0 Bc5.
  

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Markovich
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #19 - 09/26/05 at 07:41:43
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Basque,


I do tell them about the Open Spanish, pointing out that all the books say that ...Nxe4 is bad because of Re1, but whenever it's actually played White usually responds with d4!  That's as much detail as I give my students unless/until they ask for more information or it shows up in one of their games.


I don't understand.  ...Nxe4 when?  In general, it is untrue that "...Nxe4 is bad because of Re1."  E.g. 3...Nf6  4. O-O Nxe4 is not bad. 
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #18 - 09/26/05 at 06:30:41
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@photophore:
White probably is slightly better - that is normal for sound mainlines. But what makes you say that White is not behind in development? There is after all an unmoved row of white pieces from a1 to d1.
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #17 - 09/26/05 at 06:05:04
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Hi Chessteachers!
I know you are many on this forum , and maybe some of you can help me
With Black , most players , against Ruy Lopez , choose the closed defense , and I can't understand why
When I look at the standard position , after 9 h3 ,
I can't see any trmp for Black :
- White rule the center
-They have more space , and Black expansion at queenside only gives targets to White
-White is no more behind in development
Then , I ask the question : What is left to Black?
Thanks in advance
Claude Le Page
  
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woofwoof
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #16 - 09/23/05 at 12:02:26
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The best 3rd move for black is 3....a6. Starting from this move we build up the possible defense(s)

1) Mandatory to know how to handle the exchange.

2) Need to identify your tendencies or inclinations during your games:
a) If its for solid, defensive play -Steinitz deferred or Smyslov system.
b) If you have liking for systems with a lot of flexibility or things with some hypermodern leanings- Breyer, Zaitsev
c) If you like wide open play & counter attacking chances and tactical possibilities - Open Systems ie 4....Nxe4 or Marshall Attack. I dont feel comfortable with the schliemann, so i wont recommend it)
d) Positionally Inclined -Morphy Defense, Keres Defense or even any closed system for that matter.

Anyway these are just based on the more popular systems  which have been played past & present. If there are other systems that you may like but not mentioned above just pursue it.

However.... if you somehow prefer a defense w/o 3...a6 theres always the berlin defense 3....Nf6.

I'm not a Lopez expert & neither do I play them anymore due to the large amount of work involved But I did play the Breyer & the Marshall in the past. Just recently experimented with the Open System- quite a lot of play available really.
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #15 - 09/23/05 at 11:58:30
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Thanks Daniel and Fernando

for the updates on these lines!  I have a lot of work ahead of me to catch up.  At least you've given me a direction to head in!  8)
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 09/23/05 at 11:50:36
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Hi Fernando!

I don't know ... maybe I don't trust in white position after 19.f5 Ne5, very simple for black ... playing Bd7, Qe7, f6, b4, a5-a4 etc... and white ... what? well anybody has show anything for white... I think
Just only watch at : Damljanovic,B - Ponomariov

or the following:

Calistri,T (2325) - Skembris,S (2439) [C96]
Corsica Hotels Masters Bastia FRA (4), 28.04.2004

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Nd7 12.Nbd2 exd4 13.cxd4 Nc6 14.d5 Nce5 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.f4 Ng6 17.Nf3 Bh4 18.Nxh4 Qxh4 19.f5 Ne5 20.Rf1 Bd7 21.Bf4 Qe7 22.Qh5 f6 23.Kh1 b4 24.Rad1 Bb5 25.Rg1 g6 26.fxg6 hxg6 27.Qh4 Qh7 28.Qg3 Rae8 29.a4 Bd7 30.b3 g5 31.Rgf1 Re7 32.Bc1 Rg7 33.Kg1 Qh5 34.Bb2 Re7 35.Rf2 Kg7 36.Rdf1 Qg6 37.Bc1 Ref7 38.Bb2 Re8 39.Bc1 Ref8 40.Bb2 Re8 ˝:˝

Khalifman talks about white pair of bishops... in a closed position(!) , and try to open de "g" file with g4-g5, but the black strategy seems to be more simple. very strange...

All the best,

Daniel Boix.

Perdona por lo de la francesa!... esta claro todos teníamos prisa para regresar


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Fernando Semprun
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 09/23/05 at 06:22:49
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Hi Daniel,

I am a bit surprised that you quote a game from Khalifman's book omitting Khalifman's refutation of the whole line!

Isn't that line nowadays called the Nenashev variation (or Graf Variation). It also has a game Pablo Almagro-Vallés. I became interested in the line after I played a game against Vallés himself....

And I know you have this book... Am I missing something?

Kind regards!



(P.S.: I no me despedí a la francesa!) Hasta otra
  

Fernando Semprun
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 09/23/05 at 03:22:27
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Hi smyslov_fan!


The Complete Spanish (1991) Is a old theorycal book...

He considers your 12...ed as giving White an advantage, quoting Yurtaev-Nenashev, 1988 ... but I put some games from 2003.

instead, 12...cd 13.cd Nc6 14.Nb3 a5 15.Bd3 Ba6 16.d5 Nb4 17.Bf1! a4 18.Nbd4! ed 19.a3 white is clearly better, games: Shamkovic - Benjamin, USA 1976 /  Anand - Pieroth, Germany 1994 / Anand - Piket, Wijk aan Zee 1999

And about the game Jurtaev - Nenashev, ... I found this game:



Jonuscheit,W - Bode,W (2395) [C96]
Hamburg op Hamburg (1), 1992

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Nd7 12.Nbd2 cxd4 13.cxd4 Nc6 14.Nf1 exd4 15.Nxd4 Nxd4 16.Qxd4 Ne5 17.f4 Nc6 18.Qd1 Bh4! (Nenashev played 18... Bf6; againts 18.Qf2 Bh4!)
19.Re2 Bf6 20.Rd2 (black was playing for Nd4)
20... Qb6+ 21.Kh1 Nd4 22.Bb1 g6 23.Rd3 Qc7 24.Be3 Ne6 25.Bc2 Rd8 26.Rb1 Bb7 27.Rd2 Nc5 28.Bd4 Bxd4 29.Rxd4 Ne6 30.Rd2 Nxf4 31.Rf2 d5 32.Qg4 Ne6 33.exd5 Rxd5 34.Bb3 Rd4 35.Qg3 Qxg3 36.Nxg3 Bd5 37.Bxd5 Rxd5 38.Ne4 Kg7 39.Rbf1 f5 40.Rd2 Rad8 41.Rxd5 Rxd5 42.Nc3 Rd2 43.Rd1 Rxd1+ 44.Nxd1 Kf6 45.Nf2 Ke5 46.Nd3+ Kd4 47.Nb4 Nc5 48.Nc6+ Kd5 0:1

Maybe in some variations black couldn't equalize but ... there are more winning chances than the old 12... cd

Bye!

  
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