I'll have to look it up, but when I last played through it it looked very tricky for black to me.

@ Smyslov_Fan
Arent you confusing 2 variations? Afaik Karpov didnt play a Dilworth (which as white I wouldnt touch) but a piece sacrifice: 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nf6 0-0 5.Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 d4 11. Ng5 (!) Many analysis by Khalifman on this in Anand 2.
Basically 9 Nbd2 evades Dilworth et al.

Quote:


Photophore,

Your comment that it isn't really a gambit is interesting.  I see it as a gambit by White since I consider R+2P to be worth slightly more than B+N (not much tho).  

However, White has done exceptionally well in this line.  Karpov dealt it what I thought was its death blow against Korchnoi in the World Championships (I think it was 1981, but not sure). When Yusupov tried to revive it in the 1990s, he was not entirely successful.  

To the best of my knowledge, Black doesn't go into the Dillworth because White gets a huge edge.  Does anyone have any information to the contrary?

Ref WoofWoof
In the 9 c3 system , you forgot the 2 most important variations :
9 c3 Bc5 10 Nbd2 O-O 11 Bc2 f5 ( McKenzie variation)
12 Nb3 Bb6 13 Nfd4 Nxd4 14 Nxd4 Bxd4 15 cxd4 f4
16 f3 Ng3 17 hxg3 fxg3 18 Qd3 Bf5 19 QXf5 Rxf5
20 Bxf5 Qh4 21 Bh3 with very interesting play
9 c3 Bc5 10 Nbd2 O-O 11 Bc2 Nxf2 ( Dilworth variation )
It's not truly a gambit , since black gets R+2P vs B+N
IMHO it's the safest variation for Black in Open Defence

Btw,

Just to give credit where it's due:

Chess Openings: Theory and Practice was written by I. A. Horowitz.  There are many opening books by Chernev, but I don't think any are as complete as Horowitz' book.  Does Chernev have a book by the same title?

You are most welcome!

Got the info from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adam.bozon/ruylopez.htm

It has quite a lot of comments in it explaining the logic behind each move & highlights the various open & closed defenses. It is like a summerised Ruy Lopez repertoir so to speak.

Michael,

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nf6 0-0 5.Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6.

Now:

A) 9.c3 system which has 2 branches:

a) 9. c3 Be7;  10. Nbd2 O-O;  11. Qe2 Nc5;  12. Nd4.

b) 9. c3 Bc5;  10. Nbd2 O-O;  11. Bc2 Bf5;  12. Nb3 Bg4;  13. h3 Bh5;  14. g4 Bg6;  15. Bxe4 dxe4;  16. Bf4 Qxd1;  17. Raxd1.

B) Howell attack:
9. Qe2 Be7;  10. Rd1 O-O;  11. c4 bxc4;  12. Bxc4 Bc5;  13. Be3 Bxe3;  14. Qxe3 Qb8;  15. Bb3 Na5;  16. Nbd2 Nxd2;  17. Nxd2 Rd8;


C) Bernstein Variation :
9. Nbd2 Nc5; 10. c3 d4;  11. cxd4 Nxd4; or from this variation   11. Ng5 Qxg5;  12. Qf3 Kd7;  13. Bd5 Bxd5;  14. Qxd5+ Bd6;  15. Ne4 Qxe5;  16. Nxc5+ Kc8;

There are also some unusual systems around :
a) Riga Variation:

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nf6 0-0 5.Nxe4 6.d4 exd4;          7. Re1 d5;  8. Nxd4 Bd6;  9. Nxc6 Bxh2+;  10. Kh1 Qh4;  11. Rxe4+ dxe4;  12. Qd8+ Qxd8;  13. Nxd8+ Kxd8;  14. Kxh2.

b)Trifunovic Variation:

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nf6 0-0 5.Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7. Bb3 exd4;  8. Re1 d5;  9. Nc3 dxc3;  10. Bxd5 Bb7;  11. Ng5 Be7;  12. Nxf7 Qd7;  13. Nxh8.

9. c3, Howell attack, & Bernstein Variation are more frequently played. The Riga & Trifunovic are more offbeat so to speak. Hope this helps.

What are the "3 main Open Systems", woofwoof?

I do teach students, and I've seen other teachers teach the Closed Spanish as Black's best defense to children who have no idea who Noah was, let alone what a trap involving his ark is.

I teach the Black side of the closed Spanish occasionally (usually only upon the request of a student), but I try to focus on the ultra-sharp Marshall because it gives such great dividends.  

I think that White's game is much easier to understand than Black's in the Closed Spanish.  After all, simply learning when and how to defend the e5 pawn is daunting enough.  

And then Black has to learn when, how and why to expand on the Q-side, and then to defend against a myriad of threats, including Ng3-f5...

Why should Black even bother with all this when he can play the Open Variation.  Sure, Markovich, it's a lot to learn, but it's far less than the main-line closed defenses.  

When I played the Spanish as Black, I liked the Breyer.  But I stopped playing it when I saw some games in the mid- to late 1980s in which White just rolled Black for losing so many tempi with his N.  

To make things even harder for Black, White is now showing that the old saw about playing h3 before d4 may no longer be true, and the Bc8 doesn't necessarily belong on g4.  It's getting harder and harder for Black.

On the plus side, if you teach a young player to play both sides of the Spanish successfully, you have probably also taught that player innumerable tactical and positional values that will help that player for the rest of his or her life.  Maybe that's why so many from the Old Soviet School learned the Spanish as a first opening?

Quote:


I also like the Open, but for young players, it's a lot to learn.  This was addressed to teachers, so I assumed young students, or really anyone who is interested less in just having fun and more in getting stronger at chess.

Congratulations on reaching your 78th year!

Hi Markovich!
I am not a young player ( I am 78 ) , and , as for me , I find more Spiel and more fun in Open Defence
Why is it not more fashionable?

Quote:


I don't understand.  ...Nxe4 when?  In general, it is untrue that "...Nxe4 is bad because of Re1."  E.g. 3...Nf6  4. O-O Nxe4 is not bad. 

Hi Chessteachers!
I know you are many on this forum , and maybe some of you can help me
With Black , most players , against Ruy Lopez , choose the closed defense , and I can't understand why
When I look at the standard position , after 9 h3 ,
I can't see any trmp for Black :
- White rule the center
-They have more space , and Black expansion at queenside only gives targets to White
-White is no more behind in development
Then , I ask the question : What is left to Black?
Thanks in advance
Claude Le Page

Thanks Daniel and Fernando

for the updates on these lines!  I have a lot of work ahead of me to catch up.  At least you've given me a direction to head in!  8)

Hi Daniel,

I am a bit surprised that you quote a game from Khalifman's book omitting Khalifman's refutation of the whole line!

Isn't that line nowadays called the Nenashev variation (or Graf Variation). It also has a game Pablo Almagro-Vallés. I became interested in the line after I played a game against Vallés himself....

And I know you have this book... Am I missing something?

Kind regards!



(P.S.: I no me despedí a la francesa!) Hasta otra

Basque,

I really do trust that you don't need a first lesson on the Spanish.  That lesson doesn't even discuss the Exchange variation in any real sense.  All it does is show why 3...a6 is a good move.  After I've shown the students that, then we can go through the tactics of the Closed Spanish. 

I do tell them about the Open Spanish, pointing out that all the books say that ...Nxe4 is bad because of Re1, but whenever it's actually played White usually responds with d4!  That's as much detail as I give my students unless/until they ask for more information or it shows up in one of their games.

I firmly believe that players new to the Spanish should play either 3...a6 or some variation which involves ...Bc5 (preferrably without falling for some age-old trap that loses a piece).  I generally teach my students the Closed because of its direct link to understanding so many positional and tactical concepts.  It's also very useful because the Closed variation is very popular among scholastic players, and my students need to be ready for that.

I realise my last argument could be turned around to present a case for the Schliemann or a number of other variations.  So I guess it's a matter of taste and emphasis.

Going back to the original question:


The logic goes something like this:  

Player 1:

After 3.Bb5, is White really threatening to win the e5 pawn?

Player 2:
Let's try a move that doesn't defend it at all and find out.  

Player 1: Well, how about 3...a6.  That's gotta be a waste of a move if ever there was one.  

Player 2: Unless of course Black can gain by expanding on the Queenside.  

Player 1: (skeptically) Whatever.  But doesn't White win the e5 pawn anyway?  I mean 3...a6 4.Bxc6 then, I dunno, bxc6, always capture toward the center, and 5.Nxe5 wins the pawn, right?

Player 2:  Don't move the pieces!  You won't be able to move them in a game. Let's leave 4...bxc6 out of it for just now.  Let's instead look at 4....dxc6.  That opens up lines for both Bishops and the Queen.  Then, if 5.Nxe5, does Black have anything cool to play?

Player 1:  (Thinks for a moment) Yeah!  5...Qd4 wins the pawn back, right?  But then the Queen's in the center of the board where it doesn't belong.  So White still has an edge.

Player 2:  Let's look at it:  5...Qd4 6.Nf3 Qxe4+ and White has a choice between blocking with the Queen or moving.  Let's block with the Queen. 7.Qe2 Qxe2+ 8.Ke2.  Now, let's evaluate the position.

Player 1:  Well.... White has his Knight developed, and with queens and one set of minor pieces off, he doesn't mind his king in the center.  He also has the better pawn structure.  But, Black has the two Bishops, and his pieces are easier to develop.  I don't know.

Player 2:  Good answer!  I don't know either, but in a practical game I would say the chances are about even, and I would rather play Black, even with his doubled pawns just because Black's next few moves are easier to find.  So, even 3...a6 is good for Black.  

Player 1:  Isn't that called the Morphy move?

Player 2: Yeah, all this has been known for a long time, and back in the 1840s and 50s Paul Morphy showed that Black has a fine game by playing this way.  There are other ways to play this, but it's the main move now, so let's focus our studies on this!

(That's how my first lesson of the Spanish often goes, with me being Player 2.)

Hi!

Maybe I should play this lines:


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

[4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.0-0 Qd6 6.Na3 Be6 7.Qe2 f6 8.Nc4 Qd7 9.Rd1 c5 10.c3 Bg4 11.d3 Ne7 12.h3 Bh5 13.Be3 Nc6 14.a3 Be7 15.b4 cxb4 16.axb4 Rd8 17.Na5 Nxa5 18.Rxa5 0-0 19.d4 Qc6 20.dxe5 Bxf3 21.Qxf3 Qxc3 22.exf6 Bxf6 23.Rf5 Qxb4 Black is better, Tseitlin - Socko, Beograd 1999]

4...Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1

[6.Qe2 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.c3 d5 9.d3 Bb7 10.Nbd2 Re8 11.a3 Bf8 12.Ba2 Nb8 13.Ng5 h6 14.Nh3 c5 15.f3 Nbd7 16.Kh1 c4 17.Nf2 Nc5 18.exd5 cxd3 19.Nxd3 Nxd3 20.Qxd3 Bxd5 21.Ne4 Bxa2 22.Qxd8 Raxd8 23.Nxf6+ gxf6 24.Rxa2 Rd3 25.Ra1 Red8 26.g4 Kg7 27.Kg2 f5 28.gxf5 Kf6 29.Re1 Bc5 30.Bxh6 Rh8 31.b4 Bb6 32.Bc1 Rxc3 33.Ra2 Rg8+ 34.Kh1 Rxf3 35.a4 Kxf5 36.axb5 axb5 37.Rae2 Bd4 38.Bb2 Bxb2 39.Rxb2 Rg4 40.Rc1 Rff4 41.Rcb1 Ke6 42.h3 Rg3 43.Rb3 Rf1+ 44.Kh2 Rxb1 45.Rxb1 Rg8 46.Rc1 e4 47.Rc6+ Ke5 48.Rc5+ Kf4 49.Rxb5 e3 50.Rb7 f5 51.Re7 Kf3 52.h4 e2 0-1 Mortensen,E-Leko,P/Kobenhavn 63/303 1995]

6...b5 7.Bb3 d6

[7...0-0 8.d4 d6 9.c3 Bg4 10.Be3 exd4 11.cxd4 d5 12.e5 Ne4 13.Nc3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Qd7 15.h3 Bh5 16.g4 Bg6 17.Nd2 Na5 18.f4 Nxb3 19.Nxb3 f5 20.Kh2 a5 21.Rg1 a4 22.Nc1 Ra6 23.Ne2 Rc6 24.Bd2 Ba3 25.Qf1 b4 26.Rg3 Bb2 27.Re1 Rc4 28.cxb4 Rc2 29.Rd1 Qb5 30.Qf3 Qc4 31.Qe3 Ba3 32.e6 Bxb4 33.gxf5 Bxd2 34.Rxd2 Rxd2 35.Qxd2 Bxf5 36.Qe3 g6 37.Nc3 Re8 38.Qe5 Rxe6 39.Qxd5 Qxd5 40.Nxd5 Re2+ 41.Kg1 Rxa2 42.Ne7+ Kh8 43.Nxf5 gxf5 44.d5 Rd2 45.Rc3 Rxd5 46.Rxc7 Ra5 47.Rc2 a3 48.Ra2 Kg7 49.Kf2 Ra4 50.Kg3 Kg6 0-1 Formanek,E-Kovacs,L/Reggio Emilia 25/345 1977]

8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Nd7 12.Nbd2 exd4 13.cxd4 Nc6 14.d5 Nce5 15.Nxe5

[15.a4 Rb8 16.Nh2 (16.axb5 axb5 17.Nh2 Ng6 18.g3 Nf6 19.h4 h5 20.f4 Ng4 21.Ndf3 Qb6 22.Kg2 c4 23.Qe2 b4 24.Nd2 c3 25.bxc3 Nxh2 26.Kxh2 Bg4 27.Qe3 Qd8 28.cxb4 Bxh4 29.gxh4 Qxh4+ 30.Kg1 Rfc8 31.Ra2 Rc3 32.Bd3 Rxd3 33.Qxd3 Qxe1+ 34.Qf1 Qg3+ 35.Qg2 Qxg2+ 36.Kxg2 Nxf4+ 37.Kh2 Rxb4 38.Rc2 Ra4 39.Rc6 Nd3 40.Kg3 Nxc1 41.Rxc1 Rd4 42.Nc4 Rxe4 43.Nxd6 Rd4 44.Re1 Rd3+ 45.Kh2 f5 46.Re8+ Kh7 47.Nf7 Rxd5 48.Kg3 f4+ 49.Kh4 f3 50.Ng5+ Kg6 51.Ne4 Bd7 52.Re7 Bf5 53.Nf2 Kf6 54.Ra7 g5+ 55.Kg3 g4 56.Kh4 Rd2 57.Ra6+ Ke5 58.Ra5+ Kf4 0-1 Rowson,J-Davies,N/West Bromwich ENG 2004) 16...Ng6 17.Ndf3 Re8 18.Ra2 Bb7 19.b3 Bf6 20.Ng4 Bc3 21.Re3 b4 22.Bd2 h5 23.Ngh2 Bf6 24.a5 Bc8 25.Bd3 Nf4 26.Bf1 Nf8 27.Re1 N4g6 28.Qc1 Ra8 29.Kh1 Ra7 30.Bd3 Bd7 31.Nf1 Ne5 32.Nxe5 Bxe5 33.Bg5 Bf6 34.Bf4 Bb5 35.Bb1 Ng6 36.Bd2 Ne5 37.Qd1 g6 38.Ne3 Rc7 39.Bc1 c4 40.bxc4 0-1 Shchekachev,A-Gustafsson,J/Velden AUT 2004;
15.Nh2 Ng6 16.g3 Nf6 17.h4 Ne5 18.Ndf3 Neg4 19.a4 Rb8 20.axb5 axb5 21.b3 h5 22.Bb2 Nxh2 23.Nxh2 Ng4 24.Ra7 Bf6 25.Qa1 Bxb2 26.Qxb2 Nxh2 27.Kxh2 Qb6 28.Rea1 c4 29.Bd1 c3 30.Qc2 b4 31.Bxh5 f5 32.e5 dxe5 33.Qe2 Qd4 34.Bg6 Qg4 35.Qxe5 Qxg6 36.Qxb8 f4 37.Ra8 Qc2 38.R1a2 Qf5 39.Qxb4 Qh3+ 40.Kg1 f3 41.Qxf8+ Kxf8 42.Rxc8+ Qxc8 0-1 Luther,T-Fressinet,L/playchess.com INT 2004]

15...Nxe5 16.f4 Ng6 17.Nf3 Bh4 18.Nxh4 Qxh4 19.f5 Ne5 20.Rf1 Bd7 21.Bf4 Qe7 22.Qe1 f6 23.Qg3 Rfe8 24.b3 a5 25.Bd1 Qd8 26.Bh5 Re7 27.Kh2 Be8 28.Bxe8 Qxe8 29.Rae1 a4 30.Re3 b4 31.Qh4 Kh8 32.Bxe5 Rxe5 33.Qf4 axb3 34.axb3 Ra2 35.Rfe1 Kg8 36.Rg3 Ra7 37.Rge3 Qc8 38.Rg3 Qa6 39.Rge3 Qa2 40.Qf1 Ra5 41.Rg3 Qb2 42.Qf4 Ra7 43.Qf1 Re8 44.e5 fxe5 45.f6 e4 46.Rg5 Qd2 47.h4 Rf7 48.Qb5 Ref8 49.fxg7 Qf4+ 50.g3 Qf2+ 51.Kh3 Rxg7 52.Rxg7+ Kxg7 53.Qd7+ Rf7 54.Qg4+ Kh8 55.Ra1 Rf8 0:1 Damljanovic,B-Ponomariov,R/Plovdiv BUL 2003

You know what I'm talking about?

I hope so!

Quote:


MNb is absolutely correct.  This has been my experience from both sides of the Ruy.

- Lost Highway

"What is the best move in the ruy lopez after Bb5 for black to defend aganist it?"

I'd suggest the Arkangel very potent medicine

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 Bb7

In my own games on the internet it's very rare that any of my opponents play anything but the exchange variation 4.Bxc6 I don't know why they don't like Ba4 nothing wrong
with it.

Probably the most popular one is also the best one, so I guess 3...a6.