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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to defend against Ruy Lopez (Read 21407 times)
Willempie
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #41 - 09/29/05 at 07:03:29
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I'll have to look it up, but when I last played through it it looked very tricky for black to me.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #40 - 09/29/05 at 06:52:07
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After 11...Qxg5 12 Qf3 O-O-O , Black are not worse , and result should be a draw , if nobody makes a mistake (!?!?)
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #39 - 09/29/05 at 03:30:06
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@ Smyslov_Fan
Arent you confusing 2 variations? Afaik Karpov didnt play a Dilworth (which as white I wouldnt touch) but a piece sacrifice: 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nf6 0-0 5.Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 d4 11. Ng5 (!) Many analysis by Khalifman on this in Anand 2.
Basically 9 Nbd2 evades Dilworth et al.
  

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photophore
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #38 - 09/29/05 at 03:22:33
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Hi Smyslov Fan!
this variation is well covered in the database of chesslab.com ( there is even one of my games :
Heikkinen-Le Page Finland-France corr 1978 0-1
I quote it because Black strategy is quite evident;
actually , I followed a Bulgarian booklet by Sapoundjiev
Of course it's out of print , but surely it's quoted in
Eric Schiller's " How to play the Dilworth" )
I have not yet orderd Schiller's book , but I shall do it soon
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #37 - 09/29/05 at 00:42:51
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Quote:
9 c3 Bc5 10 Nbd2 O-O 11 Bc2 Nxf2 ( Dilworth variation )
It's not truly a gambit , since black gets R+2P vs B+N
IMHO it's the safest variation for Black in Open Defence



Photophore,

Your comment that it isn't really a gambit is interesting.  I see it as a gambit by White since I consider R+2P to be worth slightly more than B+N (not much tho).  

However, White has done exceptionally well in this line.  Karpov dealt it what I thought was its death blow against Korchnoi in the World Championships (I think it was 1981, but not sure). When Yusupov tried to revive it in the 1990s, he was not entirely successful.  

To the best of my knowledge, Black doesn't go into the Dillworth because White gets a huge edge.  Does anyone have any information to the contrary?
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #36 - 09/28/05 at 23:22:05
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Thanks Photophore.

Its more the case that i was unaware of them. I'll take your word on that post of yours.  Its only now that I did some research on the Open defense. I usually play the  Marshall against the Lopez whenever I'm not in a Sicilian mood. I must admit I'm quite keen to try out the Open.

If there are any other impt lines that I should know, I would be grateful if you post them up.
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #35 - 09/28/05 at 10:35:09
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Ref WoofWoof
In the 9 c3 system , you forgot the 2 most important variations :
9 c3 Bc5 10 Nbd2 O-O 11 Bc2 f5 ( McKenzie variation)
12 Nb3 Bb6 13 Nfd4 Nxd4 14 Nxd4 Bxd4 15 cxd4 f4
16 f3 Ng3 17 hxg3 fxg3 18 Qd3 Bf5 19 QXf5 Rxf5
20 Bxf5 Qh4 21 Bh3 with very interesting play
9 c3 Bc5 10 Nbd2 O-O 11 Bc2 Nxf2 ( Dilworth variation )
It's not truly a gambit , since black gets R+2P vs B+N
IMHO it's the safest variation for Black in Open Defence

  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #34 - 09/27/05 at 19:04:19
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OooopppS! Sorry. Most careless of me . Horowitz it is.  Thanks Smyslov Embarrassed
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #33 - 09/27/05 at 13:35:36
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Btw,

Just to give credit where it's due:

Chess Openings: Theory and Practice was written by I. A. Horowitz.  There are many opening books by Chernev, but I don't think any are as complete as Horowitz' book.  Does Chernev have a book by the same title?
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #32 - 09/27/05 at 13:33:53
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This seems a handy basic summary but it leaves lines out -- for example the Steinitz Defence Deferred (3 ...a6 4 Ba4 d6), which I myself am very interested in.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #31 - 09/27/05 at 13:24:17
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You are most welcome!

Got the info from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adam.bozon/ruylopez.htm

It has quite a lot of comments in it explaining the logic behind each move & highlights the various open & closed defenses. It is like a summerised Ruy Lopez repertoir so to speak.
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #30 - 09/27/05 at 13:03:03
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Thanks very much for this, woofwoof. I knew about 9 c3 and 9 Nbd2, but I didn't know about the Riga and Trifunovic Variations -- I'll give them a look over.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #29 - 09/27/05 at 12:51:57
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Michael,

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nf6 0-0 5.Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6.

Now:

A) 9.c3 system which has 2 branches:

a) 9. c3 Be7;  10. Nbd2 O-O;  11. Qe2 Nc5;  12. Nd4.

b) 9. c3 Bc5;  10. Nbd2 O-O;  11. Bc2 Bf5;  12. Nb3 Bg4;  13. h3 Bh5;  14. g4 Bg6;  15. Bxe4 dxe4;  16. Bf4 Qxd1;  17. Raxd1.

B) Howell attack:
9. Qe2 Be7;  10. Rd1 O-O;  11. c4 bxc4;  12. Bxc4 Bc5;  13. Be3 Bxe3;  14. Qxe3 Qb8;  15. Bb3 Na5;  16. Nbd2 Nxd2;  17. Nxd2 Rd8;


C) Bernstein Variation :
9. Nbd2 Nc5; 10. c3 d4;  11. cxd4 Nxd4; or from this variation   11. Ng5 Qxg5;  12. Qf3 Kd7;  13. Bd5 Bxd5;  14. Qxd5+ Bd6;  15. Ne4 Qxe5;  16. Nxc5+ Kc8;

There are also some unusual systems around :
a) Riga Variation:

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nf6 0-0 5.Nxe4 6.d4 exd4;          7. Re1 d5;  8. Nxd4 Bd6;  9. Nxc6 Bxh2+;  10. Kh1 Qh4;  11. Rxe4+ dxe4;  12. Qd8+ Qxd8;  13. Nxd8+ Kxd8;  14. Kxh2.

b)Trifunovic Variation:

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nf6 0-0 5.Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7. Bb3 exd4;  8. Re1 d5;  9. Nc3 dxc3;  10. Bxd5 Bb7;  11. Ng5 Be7;  12. Nxf7 Qd7;  13. Nxh8.

9. c3, Howell attack, & Bernstein Variation are more frequently played. The Riga & Trifunovic are more offbeat so to speak. Hope this helps.
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #28 - 09/27/05 at 11:56:49
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Quote:
What are the "3 main Open Systems", woofwoof?


Hi Micheal,

In fact I dont know the names. My reference was Irving Chernev's Chess Opening's Theory & Practice. It only gives it as Open System I, II & III. That book came from the days where the French Winawer was known as the Nimzowitsch defense. So Its THAT old.

I'll go & do some research & get back to you. Or if any of our Gods here who are more updated than yours truly....their assistance would be most appreciated Grin
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #27 - 09/27/05 at 11:34:19
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What are the "3 main Open Systems", woofwoof?
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #26 - 09/27/05 at 11:22:19
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Quote:
I
Why should Black even bother with all this when he can play the Open Variation.  Sure, Markovich, it's a lot to learn, but it's far less than the main-line closed defenses.

Yes I agree. As far as I'm aware there are 3 main Open Systems which black has at his disposal but there are easily double those in the Closed not including those defenses without 3...a6

If active play is desired  for black - Only the Open & The Marshall can ensure that. There is no other black defense which beats these 2 in terms of active piece play.

*Later Note: the schliemann is also another sharp reply for black, just that i have my reservations against it.

Quote:
When I played the Spanish as Black, I liked the Breyer.  But I stopped playing it when I saw some games in the mid- to late 1980s in which White just rolled Black for losing so many tempi with his N. 


Black spends 2 moves to bring his Kt to d7 via b8 & follows up with black g6, Re8 Bf8, While White spends 3 moves to bring his QKt to g3, not to mention the time lost retreating the Bishop from b5 to a4 to b3 to c2. So if anything it is white who is making more repetitive moves. Its a very slow system for both sides (not just the Breyer but the closed defence in general)- Like milking a cow!  In this type of closed setup & long drawn out positional moves its hard to believe that tempo is a critical factor.


« Last Edit: 09/27/05 at 13:05:14 by woofwoof »  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #25 - 09/27/05 at 00:35:43
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I do teach students, and I've seen other teachers teach the Closed Spanish as Black's best defense to children who have no idea who Noah was, let alone what a trap involving his ark is.

I teach the Black side of the closed Spanish occasionally (usually only upon the request of a student), but I try to focus on the ultra-sharp Marshall because it gives such great dividends.  

I think that White's game is much easier to understand than Black's in the Closed Spanish.  After all, simply learning when and how to defend the e5 pawn is daunting enough.  

And then Black has to learn when, how and why to expand on the Q-side, and then to defend against a myriad of threats, including Ng3-f5...

Why should Black even bother with all this when he can play the Open Variation.  Sure, Markovich, it's a lot to learn, but it's far less than the main-line closed defenses.  

When I played the Spanish as Black, I liked the Breyer.  But I stopped playing it when I saw some games in the mid- to late 1980s in which White just rolled Black for losing so many tempi with his N.  

To make things even harder for Black, White is now showing that the old saw about playing h3 before d4 may no longer be true, and the Bc8 doesn't necessarily belong on g4.  It's getting harder and harder for Black.

On the plus side, if you teach a young player to play both sides of the Spanish successfully, you have probably also taught that player innumerable tactical and positional values that will help that player for the rest of his or her life.  Maybe that's why so many from the Old Soviet School learned the Spanish as a first opening?
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #24 - 09/26/05 at 21:08:12
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"I find more Spiel and more fun in Open Defence"
Your are in the company of Tarrasch, Spielmann and Euwe, so play it!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #23 - 09/26/05 at 12:01:25
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Quote:
Hi Markovich!
I am not a young player ( I am 78 ) , and , as for me , I find more Spiel and more fun in Open Defence
Why is it not more fashionable?


I also like the Open, but for young players, it's a lot to learn.  This was addressed to teachers, so I assumed young students, or really anyone who is interested less in just having fun and more in getting stronger at chess.

Congratulations on reaching your 78th year!
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #22 - 09/26/05 at 08:31:25
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Quote:
Hi Chessteachers!
I know you are many on this forum , and maybe some of you can help me
With Black , most players , against Ruy Lopez , choose the closed defense , and I can't understand why
When I look at the standard position , after 9 h3 ,
I can't see any trmp for Black :
- White rule the center
-They have more space , and Black expansion at queenside only gives targets to White
-White is no more behind in development
Then , I ask the question : What is left to Black?
Thanks in advance
Claude Le Page

Not a teacher, but some points.
-Black can challenge the center in many ways, the most ancient one being with c5 as in the Tsjigorin. Another is to put pressure on e4 so as not to allow the manoeuvre Nbd2-f1-g3. This is what happens in the Zaitsev.
-I dont think white has that much more space. If you check some Tsjigorin main lines you can see some very good examples of black taking over the queen side (eg by some combination of Na5, c5, Nc4) while white hasnt got much to put against it.
-Black certainly isnt the one with a development lag. Just check the Breyer where black thinks he has enough time to reroute his knight via b8 to d7. For white it is usually the problem of what to do with the bishop on c1. Very often that bishop just stays there the whole game.

I do think white has the initiative though, which is why I play it with white. However I would return to 1 .. e5 in a minute if my opponent is guaranteed to play the Ruy and not some boring 4-knights or Vienna.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #21 - 09/26/05 at 08:27:44
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Hi Markovich!
I am not a young player ( I am 78 ) , and , as for me , I find more Spiel and more fun in Open Defence
Why is it not more fashionable?
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #20 - 09/26/05 at 07:47:05
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Quote:
Hi Chessteachers!
I know you are many on this forum , and maybe some of you can help me
With Black , most players , against Ruy Lopez , choose the closed defense , and I can't understand why
When I look at the standard position , after 9 h3 ,
I can't see any trmp for Black :
- White rule the center
-They have more space , and Black expansion at queenside only gives targets to White
-White is no more behind in development
Then , I ask the question : What is left to Black?
Thanks in advance
Claude Le Page


I think that for young and developing players, the Closed Defense is not such a good idea.  As I've said elsewhere, a good, straightforward defense for such players is 3...Nf6  4. 0-0 Bc5.
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #19 - 09/26/05 at 07:41:43
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Quote:
Basque,


I do tell them about the Open Spanish, pointing out that all the books say that ...Nxe4 is bad because of Re1, but whenever it's actually played White usually responds with d4!  That's as much detail as I give my students unless/until they ask for more information or it shows up in one of their games.


I don't understand.  ...Nxe4 when?  In general, it is untrue that "...Nxe4 is bad because of Re1."  E.g. 3...Nf6  4. O-O Nxe4 is not bad. 
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #18 - 09/26/05 at 06:30:41
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@photophore:
White probably is slightly better - that is normal for sound mainlines. But what makes you say that White is not behind in development? There is after all an unmoved row of white pieces from a1 to d1.
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #17 - 09/26/05 at 06:05:04
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Hi Chessteachers!
I know you are many on this forum , and maybe some of you can help me
With Black , most players , against Ruy Lopez , choose the closed defense , and I can't understand why
When I look at the standard position , after 9 h3 ,
I can't see any trmp for Black :
- White rule the center
-They have more space , and Black expansion at queenside only gives targets to White
-White is no more behind in development
Then , I ask the question : What is left to Black?
Thanks in advance
Claude Le Page
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #16 - 09/23/05 at 12:02:26
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The best 3rd move for black is 3....a6. Starting from this move we build up the possible defense(s)

1) Mandatory to know how to handle the exchange.

2) Need to identify your tendencies or inclinations during your games:
a) If its for solid, defensive play -Steinitz deferred or Smyslov system.
b) If you have liking for systems with a lot of flexibility or things with some hypermodern leanings- Breyer, Zaitsev
c) If you like wide open play & counter attacking chances and tactical possibilities - Open Systems ie 4....Nxe4 or Marshall Attack. I dont feel comfortable with the schliemann, so i wont recommend it)
d) Positionally Inclined -Morphy Defense, Keres Defense or even any closed system for that matter.

Anyway these are just based on the more popular systems  which have been played past & present. If there are other systems that you may like but not mentioned above just pursue it.

However.... if you somehow prefer a defense w/o 3...a6 theres always the berlin defense 3....Nf6.

I'm not a Lopez expert & neither do I play them anymore due to the large amount of work involved But I did play the Breyer & the Marshall in the past. Just recently experimented with the Open System- quite a lot of play available really.
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #15 - 09/23/05 at 11:58:30
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Thanks Daniel and Fernando

for the updates on these lines!  I have a lot of work ahead of me to catch up.  At least you've given me a direction to head in!  8)
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 09/23/05 at 11:50:36
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Hi Fernando!

I don't know ... maybe I don't trust in white position after 19.f5 Ne5, very simple for black ... playing Bd7, Qe7, f6, b4, a5-a4 etc... and white ... what? well anybody has show anything for white... I think
Just only watch at : Damljanovic,B - Ponomariov

or the following:

Calistri,T (2325) - Skembris,S (2439) [C96]
Corsica Hotels Masters Bastia FRA (4), 28.04.2004

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Nd7 12.Nbd2 exd4 13.cxd4 Nc6 14.d5 Nce5 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.f4 Ng6 17.Nf3 Bh4 18.Nxh4 Qxh4 19.f5 Ne5 20.Rf1 Bd7 21.Bf4 Qe7 22.Qh5 f6 23.Kh1 b4 24.Rad1 Bb5 25.Rg1 g6 26.fxg6 hxg6 27.Qh4 Qh7 28.Qg3 Rae8 29.a4 Bd7 30.b3 g5 31.Rgf1 Re7 32.Bc1 Rg7 33.Kg1 Qh5 34.Bb2 Re7 35.Rf2 Kg7 36.Rdf1 Qg6 37.Bc1 Ref7 38.Bb2 Re8 39.Bc1 Ref8 40.Bb2 Re8 ½:½

Khalifman talks about white pair of bishops... in a closed position(!) , and try to open de "g" file with g4-g5, but the black strategy seems to be more simple. very strange...

All the best,

Daniel Boix.

Perdona por lo de la francesa!... esta claro todos teníamos prisa para regresar


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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 09/23/05 at 06:22:49
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Hi Daniel,

I am a bit surprised that you quote a game from Khalifman's book omitting Khalifman's refutation of the whole line!

Isn't that line nowadays called the Nenashev variation (or Graf Variation). It also has a game Pablo Almagro-Vallés. I became interested in the line after I played a game against Vallés himself....

And I know you have this book... Am I missing something?

Kind regards!



(P.S.: I no me despedí a la francesa!) Hasta otra
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 09/23/05 at 03:22:27
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Hi smyslov_fan!


The Complete Spanish (1991) Is a old theorycal book...

He considers your 12...ed as giving White an advantage, quoting Yurtaev-Nenashev, 1988 ... but I put some games from 2003.

instead, 12...cd 13.cd Nc6 14.Nb3 a5 15.Bd3 Ba6 16.d5 Nb4 17.Bf1! a4 18.Nbd4! ed 19.a3 white is clearly better, games: Shamkovic - Benjamin, USA 1976 /  Anand - Pieroth, Germany 1994 / Anand - Piket, Wijk aan Zee 1999

And about the game Jurtaev - Nenashev, ... I found this game:



Jonuscheit,W - Bode,W (2395) [C96]
Hamburg op Hamburg (1), 1992

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Nd7 12.Nbd2 cxd4 13.cxd4 Nc6 14.Nf1 exd4 15.Nxd4 Nxd4 16.Qxd4 Ne5 17.f4 Nc6 18.Qd1 Bh4! (Nenashev played 18... Bf6; againts 18.Qf2 Bh4!)
19.Re2 Bf6 20.Rd2 (black was playing for Nd4)
20... Qb6+ 21.Kh1 Nd4 22.Bb1 g6 23.Rd3 Qc7 24.Be3 Ne6 25.Bc2 Rd8 26.Rb1 Bb7 27.Rd2 Nc5 28.Bd4 Bxd4 29.Rxd4 Ne6 30.Rd2 Nxf4 31.Rf2 d5 32.Qg4 Ne6 33.exd5 Rxd5 34.Bb3 Rd4 35.Qg3 Qxg3 36.Nxg3 Bd5 37.Bxd5 Rxd5 38.Ne4 Kg7 39.Rbf1 f5 40.Rd2 Rad8 41.Rxd5 Rxd5 42.Nc3 Rd2 43.Rd1 Rxd1+ 44.Nxd1 Kf6 45.Nf2 Ke5 46.Nd3+ Kd4 47.Nb4 Nc5 48.Nc6+ Kd5 0:1

Maybe in some variations black couldn't equalize but ... there are more winning chances than the old 12... cd

Bye!

  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 09/23/05 at 01:43:04
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Basque,

I really do trust that you don't need a first lesson on the Spanish.  That lesson doesn't even discuss the Exchange variation in any real sense.  All it does is show why 3...a6 is a good move.  After I've shown the students that, then we can go through the tactics of the Closed Spanish. 

I do tell them about the Open Spanish, pointing out that all the books say that ...Nxe4 is bad because of Re1, but whenever it's actually played White usually responds with d4!  That's as much detail as I give my students unless/until they ask for more information or it shows up in one of their games.

I firmly believe that players new to the Spanish should play either 3...a6 or some variation which involves ...Bc5 (preferrably without falling for some age-old trap that loses a piece).  I generally teach my students the Closed because of its direct link to understanding so many positional and tactical concepts.  It's also very useful because the Closed variation is very popular among scholastic players, and my students need to be ready for that.

I realise my last argument could be turned around to present a case for the Schliemann or a number of other variations.  So I guess it's a matter of taste and emphasis.
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 09/23/05 at 00:23:23
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The exchange variation is up to white to play however so that doesnt really help thats only one line. There is a third move alternative that many consider unsound but i consider it fun to play the Schleiman.
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #9 - 09/22/05 at 18:57:33
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Going back to the original question:


The logic goes something like this:  

Player 1:

After 3.Bb5, is White really threatening to win the e5 pawn?

Player 2:
Let's try a move that doesn't defend it at all and find out.  

Player 1: Well, how about 3...a6.  That's gotta be a waste of a move if ever there was one.  

Player 2: Unless of course Black can gain by expanding on the Queenside.  

Player 1: (skeptically) Whatever.  But doesn't White win the e5 pawn anyway?  I mean 3...a6 4.Bxc6 then, I dunno, bxc6, always capture toward the center, and 5.Nxe5 wins the pawn, right?

Player 2:  Don't move the pieces!  You won't be able to move them in a game. Let's leave 4...bxc6 out of it for just now.  Let's instead look at 4....dxc6.  That opens up lines for both Bishops and the Queen.  Then, if 5.Nxe5, does Black have anything cool to play?

Player 1:  (Thinks for a moment) Yeah!  5...Qd4 wins the pawn back, right?  But then the Queen's in the center of the board where it doesn't belong.  So White still has an edge.

Player 2:  Let's look at it:  5...Qd4 6.Nf3 Qxe4+ and White has a choice between blocking with the Queen or moving.  Let's block with the Queen. 7.Qe2 Qxe2+ 8.Ke2.  Now, let's evaluate the position.

Player 1:  Well.... White has his Knight developed, and with queens and one set of minor pieces off, he doesn't mind his king in the center.  He also has the better pawn structure.  But, Black has the two Bishops, and his pieces are easier to develop.  I don't know.

Player 2:  Good answer!  I don't know either, but in a practical game I would say the chances are about even, and I would rather play Black, even with his doubled pawns just because Black's next few moves are easier to find.  So, even 3...a6 is good for Black.  

Player 1:  Isn't that called the Morphy move?

Player 2: Yeah, all this has been known for a long time, and back in the 1840s and 50s Paul Morphy showed that Black has a fine game by playing this way.  There are other ways to play this, but it's the main move now, so let's focus our studies on this!

(That's how my first lesson of the Spanish often goes, with me being Player 2.)
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #8 - 09/22/05 at 18:22:18
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There's an old book by Alexei Suetin, The Complete Spanish (1991) which calls the opening the Keres variation of the Chigorin Defense.

He considers your 12...ed as giving White an advantage, quoting Yurtaev-Nenashev, 1988.  He recommends instead, 12...cd 13.cd Nc6 (which he prefers over 13...Bf6 or 13...ed) 14.Nb3 a5 (He also mentions 14...Nb6 as an interesting alternative, quoting Geller-Dorfman, USSR, 1977).  And here, regardless of whether White plays 15.Be3 or 15.Bd3, Black should be fine.

Again, this is all according to Suetin, and his book was published before Fritzy help was available.
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #7 - 09/22/05 at 15:04:24
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Hi!

Maybe I should play this lines:


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

[4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.0-0 Qd6 6.Na3 Be6 7.Qe2 f6 8.Nc4 Qd7 9.Rd1 c5 10.c3 Bg4 11.d3 Ne7 12.h3 Bh5 13.Be3 Nc6 14.a3 Be7 15.b4 cxb4 16.axb4 Rd8 17.Na5 Nxa5 18.Rxa5 0-0 19.d4 Qc6 20.dxe5 Bxf3 21.Qxf3 Qxc3 22.exf6 Bxf6 23.Rf5 Qxb4 Black is better, Tseitlin - Socko, Beograd 1999]

4...Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1

[6.Qe2 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.c3 d5 9.d3 Bb7 10.Nbd2 Re8 11.a3 Bf8 12.Ba2 Nb8 13.Ng5 h6 14.Nh3 c5 15.f3 Nbd7 16.Kh1 c4 17.Nf2 Nc5 18.exd5 cxd3 19.Nxd3 Nxd3 20.Qxd3 Bxd5 21.Ne4 Bxa2 22.Qxd8 Raxd8 23.Nxf6+ gxf6 24.Rxa2 Rd3 25.Ra1 Red8 26.g4 Kg7 27.Kg2 f5 28.gxf5 Kf6 29.Re1 Bc5 30.Bxh6 Rh8 31.b4 Bb6 32.Bc1 Rxc3 33.Ra2 Rg8+ 34.Kh1 Rxf3 35.a4 Kxf5 36.axb5 axb5 37.Rae2 Bd4 38.Bb2 Bxb2 39.Rxb2 Rg4 40.Rc1 Rff4 41.Rcb1 Ke6 42.h3 Rg3 43.Rb3 Rf1+ 44.Kh2 Rxb1 45.Rxb1 Rg8 46.Rc1 e4 47.Rc6+ Ke5 48.Rc5+ Kf4 49.Rxb5 e3 50.Rb7 f5 51.Re7 Kf3 52.h4 e2 0-1 Mortensen,E-Leko,P/Kobenhavn 63/303 1995]

6...b5 7.Bb3 d6

[7...0-0 8.d4 d6 9.c3 Bg4 10.Be3 exd4 11.cxd4 d5 12.e5 Ne4 13.Nc3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Qd7 15.h3 Bh5 16.g4 Bg6 17.Nd2 Na5 18.f4 Nxb3 19.Nxb3 f5 20.Kh2 a5 21.Rg1 a4 22.Nc1 Ra6 23.Ne2 Rc6 24.Bd2 Ba3 25.Qf1 b4 26.Rg3 Bb2 27.Re1 Rc4 28.cxb4 Rc2 29.Rd1 Qb5 30.Qf3 Qc4 31.Qe3 Ba3 32.e6 Bxb4 33.gxf5 Bxd2 34.Rxd2 Rxd2 35.Qxd2 Bxf5 36.Qe3 g6 37.Nc3 Re8 38.Qe5 Rxe6 39.Qxd5 Qxd5 40.Nxd5 Re2+ 41.Kg1 Rxa2 42.Ne7+ Kh8 43.Nxf5 gxf5 44.d5 Rd2 45.Rc3 Rxd5 46.Rxc7 Ra5 47.Rc2 a3 48.Ra2 Kg7 49.Kf2 Ra4 50.Kg3 Kg6 0-1 Formanek,E-Kovacs,L/Reggio Emilia 25/345 1977]

8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Nd7 12.Nbd2 exd4 13.cxd4 Nc6 14.d5 Nce5 15.Nxe5

[15.a4 Rb8 16.Nh2 (16.axb5 axb5 17.Nh2 Ng6 18.g3 Nf6 19.h4 h5 20.f4 Ng4 21.Ndf3 Qb6 22.Kg2 c4 23.Qe2 b4 24.Nd2 c3 25.bxc3 Nxh2 26.Kxh2 Bg4 27.Qe3 Qd8 28.cxb4 Bxh4 29.gxh4 Qxh4+ 30.Kg1 Rfc8 31.Ra2 Rc3 32.Bd3 Rxd3 33.Qxd3 Qxe1+ 34.Qf1 Qg3+ 35.Qg2 Qxg2+ 36.Kxg2 Nxf4+ 37.Kh2 Rxb4 38.Rc2 Ra4 39.Rc6 Nd3 40.Kg3 Nxc1 41.Rxc1 Rd4 42.Nc4 Rxe4 43.Nxd6 Rd4 44.Re1 Rd3+ 45.Kh2 f5 46.Re8+ Kh7 47.Nf7 Rxd5 48.Kg3 f4+ 49.Kh4 f3 50.Ng5+ Kg6 51.Ne4 Bd7 52.Re7 Bf5 53.Nf2 Kf6 54.Ra7 g5+ 55.Kg3 g4 56.Kh4 Rd2 57.Ra6+ Ke5 58.Ra5+ Kf4 0-1 Rowson,J-Davies,N/West Bromwich ENG 2004) 16...Ng6 17.Ndf3 Re8 18.Ra2 Bb7 19.b3 Bf6 20.Ng4 Bc3 21.Re3 b4 22.Bd2 h5 23.Ngh2 Bf6 24.a5 Bc8 25.Bd3 Nf4 26.Bf1 Nf8 27.Re1 N4g6 28.Qc1 Ra8 29.Kh1 Ra7 30.Bd3 Bd7 31.Nf1 Ne5 32.Nxe5 Bxe5 33.Bg5 Bf6 34.Bf4 Bb5 35.Bb1 Ng6 36.Bd2 Ne5 37.Qd1 g6 38.Ne3 Rc7 39.Bc1 c4 40.bxc4 0-1 Shchekachev,A-Gustafsson,J/Velden AUT 2004;
15.Nh2 Ng6 16.g3 Nf6 17.h4 Ne5 18.Ndf3 Neg4 19.a4 Rb8 20.axb5 axb5 21.b3 h5 22.Bb2 Nxh2 23.Nxh2 Ng4 24.Ra7 Bf6 25.Qa1 Bxb2 26.Qxb2 Nxh2 27.Kxh2 Qb6 28.Rea1 c4 29.Bd1 c3 30.Qc2 b4 31.Bxh5 f5 32.e5 dxe5 33.Qe2 Qd4 34.Bg6 Qg4 35.Qxe5 Qxg6 36.Qxb8 f4 37.Ra8 Qc2 38.R1a2 Qf5 39.Qxb4 Qh3+ 40.Kg1 f3 41.Qxf8+ Kxf8 42.Rxc8+ Qxc8 0-1 Luther,T-Fressinet,L/playchess.com INT 2004]

15...Nxe5 16.f4 Ng6 17.Nf3 Bh4 18.Nxh4 Qxh4 19.f5 Ne5 20.Rf1 Bd7 21.Bf4 Qe7 22.Qe1 f6 23.Qg3 Rfe8 24.b3 a5 25.Bd1 Qd8 26.Bh5 Re7 27.Kh2 Be8 28.Bxe8 Qxe8 29.Rae1 a4 30.Re3 b4 31.Qh4 Kh8 32.Bxe5 Rxe5 33.Qf4 axb3 34.axb3 Ra2 35.Rfe1 Kg8 36.Rg3 Ra7 37.Rge3 Qc8 38.Rg3 Qa6 39.Rge3 Qa2 40.Qf1 Ra5 41.Rg3 Qb2 42.Qf4 Ra7 43.Qf1 Re8 44.e5 fxe5 45.f6 e4 46.Rg5 Qd2 47.h4 Rf7 48.Qb5 Ref8 49.fxg7 Qf4+ 50.g3 Qf2+ 51.Kh3 Rxg7 52.Rxg7+ Kxg7 53.Qd7+ Rf7 54.Qg4+ Kh8 55.Ra1 Rf8 0:1 Damljanovic,B-Ponomariov,R/Plovdiv BUL 2003

You know what I'm talking about?

I hope so!


Grin
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #6 - 08/29/05 at 23:40:48
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very true about studying whites ideas. Thats the only reason i will play e5 against the spanish torture specialists. I like both sides. I have played every thing from the old Steinitz to the Archangel. Liked em all. undertstanding the lopez can only be good for your over all chess.
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #5 - 08/24/05 at 19:04:56
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Quote:
Probably the most popular one is also the best one, so I guess 3...a6.


MNb is absolutely correct.  This has been my experience from both sides of the Ruy.

- Lost Highway
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #4 - 08/24/05 at 17:04:56
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Quote:
What is the best move in the ruy lopez after Bb5 for black to defend aganist it?


There is no best defence, Black has a wide choice of sound approaches. Simply choose one that best suits your style.

Your question is so basic, that I would recommend you first study the typical plans, themes and ideas behind the Ruy Lopez. A good working knowledge of what White is trying to achieve will better enable you to combat it.

Toppy Grin   
  

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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #3 - 08/24/05 at 10:12:02
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"What is the best move in the ruy lopez after Bb5 for black to defend aganist it?"

I'd suggest the Arkangel very potent medicine Smiley

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 Bb7

In my own games on the internet it's very rare that any of my opponents play anything but the exchange variation 4.Bxc6 I don't know why they don't like Ba4 nothing wrong
with it.







  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #2 - 08/21/05 at 00:24:14
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a6 is by far the best but not for every one. It requires time and an understanding of many types of posistions. I like a6 personally when i play the black side of the spanish because its very flexible. Nf6 is a lot less to learn and very solid but not for those looking for a very aggressive game Check out kramnik for those. The Old Steinitz is almost umplayable because of the pressure one recieves. The Steinitz defered is a cousin system but more flexible and something the likes or Keres and Capablanca and My self like to play.  Cheesy But depending on ones style is what makes the difference.
  
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Re: How to defend against Ruy Lopez
Reply #1 - 08/20/05 at 22:21:06
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Probably the most popular one is also the best one, so I guess 3...a6.
  

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How to defend against Ruy Lopez
08/20/05 at 16:26:51
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What is the best move in the ruy lopez after Bb5 for black to defend aganist it?
  
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