Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Averbakh without Bg5...?? (Read 24020 times)
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #54 - 09/11/05 at 21:16:00
Post Tools
Quote:
5.  Your post could be interpreted as a means to just attack me or talk negatively about me.


Bladez,

No. It was meant to be a satire at the drama unfolded by this whole thread. It was inspired by Gabriel Garcia Marques' Novel "Chronicle of a Death Fore Told" It had nothing to do with you or your analysis. Please don't reply to this. I don't want to be involved in this thread any further.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sacapawn
Full Member
***
Offline


International Master

Posts: 119
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 05/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #53 - 09/11/05 at 16:59:11
Post Tools
Here is my opinion about BladezII' variation:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 Qa5 9.Qd2 e5 (BladezII' new move)

Now after 10.dxe6 Bxe6 11.Bxh6 and so forth my intuition doesn't say "better for White", but rather "unclear" as in BladezII' variations. If this was the critical variation and I played this as White I would have tried to analyse it thoroughly.

But White can simply play 10.Be3 (evaluated by castlerock as better for White; I agree). BladezII analysis continues 10.-,a6 11.f3 Kh7 12.h4 Nh5.

White can improve with 12.g4! which prevents Nh5. Now Black has difficulties getting any effective counterplay on the queenside (or in the center or the kingside) whereas White's kingside attack is pretty straightforward (h4, Nh3, h5 and if Black plays g5 White shouldn't hesitate to sac either N or B on g5).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #52 - 09/11/05 at 11:01:22
Post Tools
1.  I never ever claimed the following -- " an important revelation not known to chess fraternity" And you should not interpret it that way just because I spoke so proudly about it.  The revelation came from you interpreting it in that manner.  After I gave the invitation not to attack anyone, you go ahead and post what you did above.

2.  Since White is obviously playing for a win and the one who carries most if not all of the burden to establish an advantage in the opening, when Black plays a line that objectively or truthfully should give him a comfortable game or deny White of what he is looking for, then it is a problem for White.  That is how what I said should be interpreted because it is what I meant.  A problem does not have to be interpreted as a refutation.   If you don't know what I mean by saying this or that, you can just ask me.

3.  Unless you find 14...  Nc6 in some database, it could be a new idea here.  When you say I claimed any moves before this to be new that is just not right.

4.  When I shared my evaluation of the position I wrote the following :

"I took some time to really evaluate the position here and the appreciate the trumps for Black since White's trumps are already clearly ideantified. Black has valuable trumps that are stong enough to counter
White's. In fact, his trumps must be used immediately since they rely on the temporary weakness of White's position. The Weakness of White's King is just as real and exploitable as Black's Kingside. One of the immediate weakness is that it sits on the open file. The pinned White Knight, White's weakness on the Q side which is significant only because Black can infiltrate with theQueen and find avenues of approach to Black's Kingside after the Q has caused some wreck on the Q side. The better placement of Black's pieces compared to White's, and last but not least Black has a better control of the center."

Fritz or any other programme did not "speak" to me to tell all of this.  I did this on my own.  It also was my motivation to want to show that Black is all right, that given  the circumstances, that the future from this position should at least be good for him as much as it is good for White.

When I gave an exclamation mark to .... Re8 it was also because of the key idea to play the Rook on the open file facing off with White's King.

I shared the reason I did not even consider to post 17. a3.  17. a3 is a suggestion by Fritz, but I thought it made no sense.  I wrote-- " I mean, a3 does nothing for White's development or his attack and does nothing vs the threat of ....Bxc4."   The response Bxc4 does not come from the computer, but rather from the belief that Black must utilize his trumps.

If you keep assuming I let a computer do everything, you are wrong.  I use it for the same reasons that other people use it, it is a great companion when things get messy or when there is complex tactical melee ahead.  I have been playing the game over 21 years;  I  also know a thing or two.

5.  Your post could be interpreted as a means to just attack me or talk negatively about me.  I say "could" hoping (very little hope)  that I am misinterpreting it.  Just in case this applies, attack the ideas not the person.  You have NO right to attack me.  I do not deserve it.  You have no power to determine I do deserve any personal attack.  When the posts become bad posts it "could" be because we start talking bad about others instead of talking about the moves.  Anyone here has the freedom and the right to say what he wants about this or that move and you not liking it or you hating it does not equal you having authority to attack anyone or talk bad about him or her.

To castlerock and Smyslov:  

"What the story is depends on HOW you tell the story and your intentions with it".
« Last Edit: 09/11/05 at 13:14:37 by BladezII »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #51 - 09/11/05 at 09:52:06
Post Tools
"Whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy depends on when you end the story."

Thanks, Castlerock!  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #50 - 09/11/05 at 02:28:41
Post Tools
No. My one hour with this thread is not a waste. I am able to produce a story. A story that is so surreal, Marques would have loved it. So here it is.

Chronicle of a Thread Fore Closed!

Guru starts a thread where in he replaces g4 instead of Bg5.

This starts a fairly decent discussion where in some conversional issues utlilising g4 came to light. This is despite the side track, whether a line without Bg5 Averbakh or not.

We are hardly in the sixth post and Bladez II makes and important revelation not known to chess fraternity. That the problem of Averbakh System is 6…c5 and produces a line in support of his claim! Let us see.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 0–0 6.Bg5 c5

At this stage my ECO 2004 which has games till Nov 2003 has 2008 games! First indication of a line which has problem! Scores +884 – 499 = 598. 6...c5 is a problem for white says Bladez, not withstanding stats. The saga continues.

At this stage white has two choices 7.d5 and 7.dxc4. Both appear to be good. But only 7.d5 is discussed to question Averbakh. Every one is okay with this.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 0–0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6

At this stage my database has 785 games. +341 -190 =241

Here again there are two promising continuations. 8.Bf4 and 8.Be3. Bladez chooses 8.Bf4 and the forum agrees. Let us continue our saga.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 0–0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 Qa5

This is an important revelation. I have 430 games with 8.Bf4 and 22 (yes twenty two) games with 8...Qa5. That’s how critical the line championed by Bladez is.

Very strong Grandmasters have tried this move, in a bid to convert it to Benoni set up and realized that the resultant positions are murky and not worth venturing in. White has always scored well here but the resultant positions are unclear and hence they are not popular.

Here 9.Bd2 is more critical, because of the murky positions 9.Qd2 leads to, though white has excellent results. This line is unpopular because of 9.Bd2. This is not worth considering! So lets move on!

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 0–0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 Qa5 9.Qd2 e5

e5? Is it e5?? Really e5??? This is the novelty! Grand Masters have tested 9...e6 here to steer the game to Benoni territory. It is not without reason. Centre is locked. White can keep the king in the center and black has no way of reaching it. White’s winning plan suggests itself. Next 10 or 15 moves for white is a no brainer. Be3,a4,Qd2,Bf1,Nge2,g4,h4,Ng3,Be2, Kf1,Kg2,Rh2, Rah1,g5, h5 sac,sac, mate!  It appears to me that black is already in perennial zugzwang!! I don’t have the stomach to analyse chess further.I’ll continue the story,but make it short.

So Bladez takes a tested and discarded line and produces a 12 move analysis. Fridz doesn’t understand strategies. Above discussion is a good example. But Fridz feels Bladez is right and I am wrong. He says he would have played the same move as Bladez.

Smyslov_Fan objects and furnishes analysis. He prefers 8.Bh4

Bladez produces a 13 move analysis with 8.Bh4 to say black is better and Fridz agrees.

Guru says it is Averbakh even if you don’t play Bg5. But by this time the thread is already fore closed.

Smyslov_Fan and Bladez resort to first round of bickering over Kasparov’s analysis.

TopNotch barges in with some very important games with 8.Bf4 and e6 instead of e5. And the thread reverts back to 8.Bf4!

Bladez repeats his original (?) analysis.

After insinuation from Smyslov_Fan, Bladez produces a 29 move wonder to say Black is excellently placed and Fridz agrees with whatever he has to say. End of page one.

TopNotch makes the same conclusion stated above. That this line is messy and black will do well not to enter.

Smyslov_Fan is in the middle of the tournament and takes time off to thank TopNotch.

Bladez changes the analysis and incorporates the novelty Nc6 for black and produces a 36 move analysis to say black is better and Fridz agrees. Here, however, Fridz turns a bit sleezy! It does not inform Bladez that unclear positions will also have to be numerically evaluated and it doesn’t mean anything!!

Second round of Bickering went on involving Smyslov_Fan, TopNotch, Castlerock, Bladez and his alter ego.

Smyslov_Fan produces Kasparov’s analysis and starts third round of bickering. Woofwoof joins in TopNotch drops out.

Bladez produces a new analysis of 33 moves, varying his own 15th move. As usual, Fridz agrees with Bladez.

Smyslov_Fan produces a game to counter Bladez. But a side track on Smyslov_Fan becoming a God starts. End of Page two.

In between this side track Bladez produces another 31 move analysis varying his own 17th move. And you guessed it right. Fridz agrees with him.

Finally, castlerock makes the grave blunder of deciding to study Averbakh in the weekend, thinks what is discussed is the critical line and makes a fool of himself and breaks his own record of foolishness by posting this.

Oh! Well!! As McWatt sings in Catch-22 What the hell !!

End of the Story.

Morals of the Story.

1. People who were involved in this thread after the first six posts are little dense. Fortunately they are a handful and the forum will survive.

2. Fridz does not understand strategy or unclear positions.

3. People who rely exclusively on Fridz will do well to study My System and Zurich International at the minimum. If they do, they will stop their exclusive reliance on frid to do their thinking!
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #49 - 09/10/05 at 03:14:51
Post Tools
Is this last post which has the moves too hard to follow? I honestly tried to make it look simple.  Let me know.

Maybe others can help me simplify it further.  What I have to be careful about is NOT to miss white's options.  That is why it has been a challenge for me, because I have not been perfect at championing the ideas for white and I have made oversights.

But this last post with 17.a3 should be follower friendly.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #48 - 09/10/05 at 02:19:30
Post Tools
Bladez,

Just do me a favour. Please post one single line which you consider to be the best for black. I tried going through the thread and I don't really make out which line I'm suppose to look in. One plain pgn please.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #47 - 09/10/05 at 01:48:05
Post Tools
Well, and I feel that 14.h4 may be good enough for White to draw and that is it.  As White, the burden is to win and in this line, after 14.... Nc6 !  Black is fine.  That's my opinion, but I have really enjoyed discussing this in this forum.  Any other KID players who read this are welcome to appreciate Black's trumps in this position and help me fight the case that Black has in his own right, a great game that forces White to be careful as much as Black to avoid losing.  Then, it seems that both parties should just be heading to a draw.  A sign that things are balanced.  I think that the ball in on White's court now since 14.h4 while being undeveloped and with King in center is contrary to principles and White should not think he has the advantage and that he should respect Black for his trumps.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #46 - 09/10/05 at 01:06:07
Post Tools
Good point,  castlerock!  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #45 - 09/10/05 at 00:58:43
Post Tools
Quote:
I completely missed that 18...Bc4 was possible because I thought 19.b4 was just winning. 


Don't forget to give me a shout when you reach 18...Bc4 in OTB Grin
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #44 - 09/10/05 at 00:37:08
Post Tools
@Bladez,

Well done!

I completely missed that 18...Bc4 was possible because I thought 19.b4 was just winning.  I'm going to have to look at this a little more seriously since 18...Bc4 may indeed be good enough for a draw (I don't know for sure).  Of course, White has numerous good moves as early as move 13, but that's for another post.

@castlerock and woofwoof:

I'm trying! (you know how trying I am!)   But if I continue to combine responses in single postings, I may never get there! 8)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #43 - 09/09/05 at 23:31:23
Post Tools
Quote:
Are you kidding? One or two days would be my guess Wink


Oh! Possible! Possible! Grin
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #42 - 09/09/05 at 23:04:59
Post Tools
Quote:
Aha! I can see that maybe in 1-2 weeks time or so you too will attain divinity!


Are you kidding? One or two days would be my guess Wink
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #41 - 09/09/05 at 22:08:33
Post Tools
1. d4  Nf6
2.c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9. Qd2 e5
10. dxe6 Bxe6
11. Bxh6  Bxh6
12. Qxh6 Nxe4
13. Rc1 Re8 !
14. h4

{I took some time to really evaluate the position here and the appreciate the trumps for Black since White's trumps are already clearly ideantified. Black has valuable trumps that are stong enough to counter
White's. In fact, his trumps must be used immediately since they rely on the temporary weakness of White's position. The Weakness of White's King is just as real and exploitable as Black's Kingside. One of the immediate weakness is that it sits on the open file. The pinned White Knight, White's weakness on the Q side which is significant only because Black can infiltrate with theQueen and find avenues of approach to Black's Kingside after the Q has caused some wreck on the Q side. The better placement of Black's pieces compared to
White's, and last but not least Black has a better control of the center.}

14....     Nc6 !
15. h5

{It makes no sense to move the black g-pawn forward and it is just a bad move and a bad idea to provide another target for White. But it makes all
the sense to bring yet another piece to the center which will also cover the K-side, thus accentuating the trumps I mentioned earlier for Black. If it wasn't for the people of the forum, I could not refine Black's play.
Nevertheless, Black's trumps are real just as real as White's. White's King is AT LEAST as exposed as Black's. And Black has a mobile army to take advantage
of that. So the following move makes total sense and it is a strong supporter of the move 14.... Nc6 !}

(15. Nf3 Nxc3 16. Rxc3 Bxc4 17. O-O Bxe2 18. Ng5 (18.
h5) 18... Qxa2 19. Qh7+ Kf8 20. b3 Nd8 21. Qh8+ Ke7 22. Re3+ Ne6 23. Qg7 Kd7 24. Nxe6 Re7 25. Nxc5+ dxc5 26. Rxe7+ Kxe7 {It is White who has to play just to draw.})

(15. Kf1 Nxc3 16. Rxc3 Qxa2 17. Qc1 Nd4 18. h5 Nb3
19. Qd1 Nd4 20. Rg3 Bxc4 21. Bxc4 Qxc4+ 22. Rd3 {
White is in trouble})

15... Ne5 !
16. hxg6

*[16. f3 Ng3

(16... Nxc3 17. Rxc3 Qxa2 18. hxg6 Nxg6 19. Qh7+ Kf8 20. Qh6+ Ke7 {Black can take a draw here with 20... Kg8 if he wants} 21. Qc1 Qa4 {With idea of ...Rh8 and Black is a pawn up. )

*continued
17. hxg6 Nxh1 18. Qh7+ Kf8 19. g7+ Ke7 20. Qh4+ f6 21. Qxh1 Kd7 {Black has idea of ...Nxc4 and/or ...Re7 ....Rag8} 22. Kf2 Re7 23. f4 Nxc4 24.
f5 Bg8 25. Qh4 Ne3 26. Ne4 Nxf5 27. Bg4 Rxe4 28. Bxf5+ Re6 29. Bxe6+ Bxe6 30.Qxf6 Qd2+ 31. Ne2 Re8 and this looks promising for Black, the g--pawn looks like a liability that will soon just be lost. ] *

16...      Nxg6
17. a3

{I had taken a look at this move but after I did the following analysis I decided this is not worth mentioning.  I mean, a3 does nothing for White's development or his attack and does nothing vs the
threat of ....Bxc4. I regret not including it on one hand.  On the other hand,I am pleased to show you the following:}

(17. Nf3 Nxc3 18. bxc3 Qxa2 19. Nd2 d5
20. Rd1 Rad8 {White may not have anything better than to take the draw by perpetual.}
21.Qh7+ Kf8 22. Qh6+ Ke7 23. Ne4 dxe4 24. Qg5+ Kf8 )

17...        Nxc3
18. Rxc3  Bxc4  

No exclamation mark; this move should be really obvious.
Black has to play using his trumps.  He has  powerful trumps so let's used  them.  A move like Qb6 ?  has no intentions of using his trumps.  Black highlights with this Bishop move the White King sits on the open e-file.

19. b4

**(19. Qd2 Qa6

{Black has a very clever and potentially killer idea of ...d5 which connects the Qa6 with the King side and starts rolling his extra pawn and adds  further pressure to e2.  Black is still using his trumps !.}

20. Rg3 d5 21. Qh6 Qf6 {White has to be worried now and worried a lot !} )**

19...    cxb4
20.Qh7+

{white has to play for the draw unless he wants to take a zero chance of winning and some chances of losing.  For example:}

(20. Rxc4 bxa3+ 21. Qd2 (21.Kf1 a2) 21...  Re5 {Black is playing for the win.})

20....         Kf8

21. Qh6+   Kg8

  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #40 - 09/09/05 at 14:03:55
Post Tools
Woofwoof,

You're on to me!

Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo