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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Averbakh without Bg5...?? (Read 24006 times)
BladezII
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #69 - 10/22/05 at 02:12:40
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Wait a minute.  I forgot that Black can still play the following move order---

[Event "Bundesliga"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1999.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kachiani, K."]
[Black "Uhlmann, W."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E74"]
[WhiteElo "2425"]
[BlackElo "2460"]
[Annotator "IM A. Martin"]
[PlyCount "61"]
[EventDate "1999.??.??"]

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4

{A different square for White's Bishop to Uhlmann-Ujtumen but it  will come to the same.}

Black can play the following

8....   e6

9. dxe6 Bxe6

This is according to the game that TopNotch provided.  I found it using chesspub.

10. Qd2 Qa5
11. Bxh6 Bxh6
12.Qxh6 Nxe4
13. Rc1 Nc6
14. h4 

And here instead of Uhlman's  14...  Nd4 ?!  Black plays 14.... Rfe8! and after

15. h5  Ne5!

We transpose back to our previous discussion where I showed that Black is doing well after ....Nc6 and has nothing to worry about.  In fact, White has to be very careful as much or more as Black does or he might have the worst of it and maybe find himself lost.
  

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BladezII
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #68 - 10/14/05 at 01:30:29
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Sacapawn,

First I apologize for the long delay in replying.  Along with many other activities that take time in  my life, I have been looking at the possibilites after 10.Be3.  The idea of Kg8 was to get the king out of the h file and I even tried it at an earlier move.  I was seeking for Black to Block the K side, but... regardless.  I am absolutely convinced that White has everything going for him after 10.Be3 and Black has only hopes of not getting mated here.  This set up of Be3 and f3, g4 etc has taken me to seek an improvement upon the whole line.  Yes, I have gone back all the way to this ---


1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6.Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4

And here is my deviation 8...  b5, playing an improved version of the Benko gambit.  This of course is another subject.

I dont know if you were able to tell from my previous posts, but I have no problems recognizing that I had made mistakes and join others in the critique of my ideas.  

I would like to discuss this other possibility of 8... b5, if any of you would like me to start a new thread on this subject, I will do it.  If you think it's ok to do it here, then so be it.

Cheers


  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #67 - 09/20/05 at 02:54:38
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Step away from the computer, read annotated master games, and learn from stronger players.  They know a thing or two!  Sacapawn has some good advice.  Now's a great time to follow it.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #66 - 09/20/05 at 01:49:24
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In a previous post you suggested 14.-,Nb6 but you failed to mention the obvious reply 15.b3! that stops a later Na4 and exchange on c3. A rule of thumb in positional play is that the side with space disadvantage (here Black) benefits from piece exchanges to be able to manouvre more easily. That of course also means that White should try to avoid piece exchanges.

I cannot see the point of 14.-,Kh8.

As I am long ago convinced that White is better after 10.Be3 this is my last post in this thread.

I suggest you get some opponent (OTB or Internet) to play the White side of this position in a couple of games to get a better feeling for White's and Black's possibilities. The longer time control you use the more valuable will the experience be.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #65 - 09/20/05 at 00:11:36
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and what I am seeing is an improvement on 14....  move for Black.  Namely, 14... Kg8

1. d4  Nf6   
2   c4 g6   
3. Nc3 Bg7   
4. e4 d6   
5. Be2 O-O   
6. Bg5 c5   
7. d5 h6   
8. Bf4 Qa5   
9.Qd2 e5   
10. Be3 a6   
11. f3   
 
And now 11.-,h5 is your new move (previously tried are 11.-,Kh7 and 11.-,Nbd7). Your analysis continues 
 
12. h3 Nbd7 
13. g4 Kh7 
 
Ok so far.   
 
"But White does not play 14.gxh5? here. White has an efficient attacking plan starting with 14.Bd3! followed by Nge2, Bg5, Ng3 and gxh5 to soften up Black's kingside."-- Sacapawn 


[/b]So,

14. Bd3    Kg8
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #64 - 09/19/05 at 23:33:04
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Sacapawn, I am follwing your suggested plan for White.  It is very logical.  You also followed my moves or my suggested moves (more correct) "12. h3 Nbd7
13. g4 Kh7 " and I am following your logical plan of -- "White has an efficient attacking plan starting with 14.Bd3! followed by Nge2, Bg5, Ng3 and gxh5 to soften up Black's kingside. " -- Sacapawn.

That being said, I have looked at some ideas on how White might try to slow Black down on the Q side, with a4 or with his own attack on the K-side.  Neither seem to offer much.  Frankly, I believe Black is fine and White has as much a hard time doing everything ideal.  Black also has his own ideas.  And those ideas are real and palpable.  It is a two way game.  Do you have some input for White ?
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #63 - 09/19/05 at 22:23:02
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White must do two things in this position:

Advance where White is strongest. That is the kingside. I have given an idea how to initiate an attack on the kingside in my previous post.

White must stop or slow down Black's counterplay on the queenside. If that can be achieved White's attack will be successful.

Do you think it is possible for White to slow down Black's queenside play after 14.-,Nb6 or should White immidiately continue the attack on the kingside as you suggested? If you have the ambition to analyze this line correctly you should make an effort to  find good moves for White also, otherwise Black will always get a winning advantage in your analyses.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #62 - 09/19/05 at 21:42:45
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I sense a "horizon effect" here.   Tongue
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #61 - 09/19/05 at 20:32:00
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1. d4  Nf6   
2   c4 g6   
3. Nc3 Bg7   
4. e4 d6   
5. Be2 O-O   
6. Bg5 c5   
7. d5 h6   
8. Bf4 Qa5   
9.Qd2 e5   
10. Be3 a6   
11. f3 

And now 11.-,h5 is your new move (previously tried are 11.-,Kh7 and 11.-,Nbd7). Your analysis continues

12. h3 Nbd7
13. g4 Kh7

Ok so far. 

"But White does not play 14.gxh5? here. White has an efficient attacking plan starting with 14.Bd3! followed by Nge2, Bg5, Ng3 and gxh5 to soften up Black's kingside."-- Sacapawn


So,

14. Bd3    Nb6
15.Nge2   Bd7
16. Bg5    Na4

Black is fine.  White is not breaking through so easy and Black eliminates one obstacle for ...b5 .
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #60 - 09/18/05 at 16:41:07
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1. d4  Nf6 
2   c4 g6 
3. Nc3 Bg7 
4. e4 d6 
5. Be2 O-O 
6. Bg5 c5 
7. d5 h6 
8. Bf4 Qa5 
9.Qd2 e5 
10. Be3 a6 
11. f3

And now 11.-,h5 is your new move (previously tried are 11.-,Kh7 and 11.-,Nbd7). Your analysis continues

12. h3 Nbd7
13. g4 Kh7

Ok so far.

But White does not play 14.gxh5? here. White has an efficient attacking plan starting with 14.Bd3! followed by Nge2, Bg5, Ng3 and gxh5 to soften up Black's kingside.

If 14.-,Rb8 15.a4 stops b5 counterplay.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #59 - 09/17/05 at 02:57:28
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Sorry for the delay, school and family and church really took all my time and I am glad to be able to devote a little left over time for this---


1. d4  Nf6
2   c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9.Qd2 e5
10. Be3 a6
11. f3

{I agree that Black must not allow g4 here to be
comfortably played by White.  But he should try...}

11. ....    h5

{And here Black has options to play on Q side and K side.  On the K side with ideas  of h5-h4 Nh5-- Nf4 , etc.  On the Q side wth ... b5 etc. The Question is where does
White castle ?}

12. h3

(12. g4 hxg4 13. O-O-O b5)
(12. h4 Nbd7 13. Bh6 Bxh6 14.Qxh6 Qb4)
(12. Bh6 Bxh6 13. Qxh6 b5 14. cxb5 axb5 15. Bxb5 Ba6 16. Bxa6 Nxa6 17. Nge2 Rfb8   )

12... Nbd7 13. g4 Kh7 14. gxh5 Nxh5

Black looks good.

  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #58 - 09/12/05 at 01:32:30
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Watch out for those edits.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #57 - 09/11/05 at 23:37:17
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1. d4  Nf6 
2. c4 g6 
3. Nc3 Bg7 
4. e4 d6 
5. Be2 O-O 
6. Bg5 c5 
7. d5 h6 
8. Bf4 Qa5 
9. Qd2 e5
10.Be3 a6
11.f3
and now 11.-,Nbd7 is suggested as a new move (11.-,Kh7 was the earlier move)

12.Bxh6 wins a pawn for nothing.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #56 - 09/11/05 at 21:41:47
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"5.  Your post could be interpreted as a means to just attack me or talk negatively about me."

Albatross!
(With many thanks to HgMan, TopNotch and John Cleese).
  

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bakh without Bg5...??
Reply #55 - 09/11/05 at 21:26:27
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1. d4  Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9. Qd2 e5
10. Bxh6

With  good reasons, which most, if not all of them, have been seen, my opinion is the only thing unclear is the reason to believe White has any hope here for anything except a way to secure a draw.  Black will utilize his trumps in this line and they are enough to counter whatever White thinks he has.  But I think we have looked at that plenty.

So let's see the other option--

10. Be3 a6
11. f3 Nbd7
12. g4 Nb6
13. h4 h5
14. g5

A. 14. Nh3 hxg4 15. Ng5 g3 16. f4 Ng4 17. f5 gxf5 18. exf5 Bxf5 19. O-O e4 20. Ncxe4 Qxd2 21. Bxd2 Bxe4
22. Nxe4

B. 14. Bh6 Bxh6 15. Qxh6 Na4

14...    Ne8
15. Nh3 Na4
16. a3 Nxc3
17. Qxc3 Qd8
18. b4 b6

White has nothing.  Black is fine.

Wink
  

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