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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Averbakh without Bg5...?? (Read 24001 times)
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #9 - 08/23/05 at 04:21:41
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Ummm,

The "Averbakh without Bg5" isn't an Averbakh anymore.  If you play Be2 before Nf3 in this line, it's usually called the Modern Variation.  At least that's the name I learned for it.

I don't really see the point of 6.g4 here.  Is there some sort of rush to ruin White's kingside before Black has committed to any specific plan of development?  Do you really hope a pawn storm will work in this position?  I guess I don't see 6.g4 as being particularly wild or good yet.  Do you have any games or analysis to back it up?

If you're looking for a pawn storm, there's an idea in the Averbakh that goes something like:  6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.h4.  I have won numerous games with this idea, and called it the "Can-opener" because the h-pawn rips open the Black king.  I found out much later that Tigran Petrosian actually tried this idea a couple of times, so maybe it's actually good.


Actually Shredder calls it Averbach even if one dont play Bg5. I have played real Averbach (ie. 6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.h4 etc.) and I´m relatively happy with the results but I want to try something "new". Also, I think Averback with c5 + e6 does not give any attacking changes for white Sad
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #8 - 08/22/05 at 22:47:58
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I suggested something and expressed the ideas with some variations... NOT with a postcard from Disney.
Here I go again.  Let me make it really clear that I insist on move accuracy.  I have some reasons as to why ...h6 instead of ...e6 first.  If you want to discuss this with me, let me pick the move oder I want for Black; dont pick for me.  I know what I am talking about, and I politely ask you to respect that.

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6  and NOT ... e6

8. Bh4 instead of Bf4, as I used in my last post.

8...     a6
9. Nf3 b5
10. Qc2

A) 10. cxb5 axb5 11. Bxb5 Nxe4 White is in trouble)

B) 10. Nd2 b4 11. Na4 Nh7 12. O-O Nd7 13. Qc2 g5 14. Bg3 Ne5 and White had to think of how to equalize.
Ehlvest-Kasparov 1995 --a year AFTER the game Kramnik--Kasparov.  Looks like the Kramnik - Kasparov 1994 game which you used to make your case was NOT the final word.   8)

10...      bxc4
11. Nd2 Nbd7
12. Nxc4 Nb6
13. Bxf6 Bxf6

Black is comfortable and has an excellent game.


  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #7 - 08/22/05 at 21:06:33
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@BladezII

Wow, you've just solved the entire KID 6.Bg5 system!  Are you on the way to Disneyland yet? Wink


Okay, seriously...

(Disclaimer:  I no longer play the Averbakh system, but I still believe in it.)

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6is the starting point, not the ending point of the main line of the Averbakh!  7...h6 is mostly just a transpositional tool.  Let's see some well-known lines to illustrate this.

8.de6? really is just equal after either 8...Be6 or fe6.  One interesting game to look up in each variation is:  Evans-Gligorich, 1957 and Bobolvich-Roshal 1957 respectively.  

So now that we have the trash out of the way, let's look at more reasonable play for White.  Remember, this is just a sampling of play, and isn't encylcopaedic.  (BTW, I am using several sources for my information, not least of which is ECO E75 1991 by Polugaevsky.)  

I.  8.Nf3!? h6 (exchanging on d5 is considered to be bad for Black here.  A neat theory that backs this up is that tension (created when either side can make an exchange of material) in chess is good, and whoever breaks it usually loses something in the process.  Moral:  break the tension only when you are sure there's a good reason.) 9. Bh4!? 9.Bf4 is probably not best whether your idea is sound or not, and Polugaevsky analyses 9.Bd2 to what he considers to be equality in ECO, but it's not very clear.

Nunn, in The Main Line King's Indian(1996)gives the following line (with lots of side variations):


9....g5 10.Bg3 Nh5!? 11.h4 (Keres' move.  By the way, we've transposed into the Petrosian System with 8.Nf3.  11.Nd2 is also possible, and Black still has a lot of work to do to prove that is only equal.) 11...g4 12.Nh2!? Ng3 13.fg3 h5 14.0-0 f5 15.ef5 or 15.Rf5! The exclam belongs to Kramnik. 15.ef5 follows Kramnik-Kasparov 1994 which gave White a big plus.  There are lots of segues to discuss, but I doubt we'll solve it all here.  If we do, then frabjous day! 8)
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #6 - 08/22/05 at 19:46:06
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The problem with the Averbakh system is 6... c5.  This is the most critical continuation, immediately attacking the center.

White normally replies 7.d5 or the less popular 7.dxe5.

after 7.d5

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9. Qd2 e5
10. dxe6 ...

OR

A.  10. Bxh6 Bxh6 11. Qxh6 Nxe4  White may have some problems.  At the very very least Black is no longer playing to equalize.

B. 10. Be3 a6 11. f3 Kh7 12. h4 {There are no more active attempts here.} Nh5
Black's position is the more promising: he has forestalled his opponent's play on the kingside, and is ready for action on the queenside, where White might be planning to evacuate his king.

10...  Bxe6
11. Bxd6 Rd8
12. e5 Ne8

Black is better developed and
the regaining of the pawn is merely a matter of time.

  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #5 - 08/22/05 at 12:11:41
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Alumbrado,

I agree completely that White plays g4 in several important variations of the KID.  I just don't see what White has to gain by playing it so early.  As you pointed out, White usually plays it to stop the "wild" play of ...f5, and only then to look for some sort of king-side play on his own.  I agree that the other moves (especially 5.Nf3) make more sense until Black has committed ...e5.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #4 - 08/22/05 at 10:44:45
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This is an idea which deserves to be taken a bit more seriously.  The g2-g4 thrust is common in the King's Indian, after all, including in the main lines of the Averbakh.  The thing is not to look at it as part of a direct kingside attack: the idea is to clamp down on ...f5 and if black plays it anyway, to take off twice and then try and plant something, preferably a knight, on e4.

If you want to play a system with g2-g4, then the lines with 5.h3 or 5.Nf3 and 6.h3 are probably better, delaying g2-g4 until Black has committed to ...e5 and it looks as if he might be ready to play ...f5 some time soon.  That way the Bf1 gets to keep is options open - it can go to g2 or d3 for extra control over the crucial e4 square, for example.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #3 - 08/22/05 at 10:28:18
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yep! I agree with Smyslov. W/o Bg5 there is no Averbach.

@Smyslov-fan. Just maybe It was from trying out that 'can opener' thing that Tigran got some ideas for his own System?? Cos after black starts chasing W's dark bishop with h6, g5, & Nh5 white responds with h4!?  Black's f5 break is blunted and  the g5 pawn is somewhat weakened.  So h4 here would be even more potent. What do you think??
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #2 - 08/22/05 at 02:15:06
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Ummm,

The "Averbakh without Bg5" isn't an Averbakh anymore.  If you play Be2 before Nf3 in this line, it's usually called the Modern Variation.  At least that's the name I learned for it.

I don't really see the point of 6.g4 here.  Is there some sort of rush to ruin White's kingside before Black has committed to any specific plan of development?  Do you really hope a pawn storm will work in this position?  I guess I don't see 6.g4 as being particularly wild or good yet.  Do you have any games or analysis to back it up?

If you're looking for a pawn storm, there's an idea in the Averbakh that goes something like:  6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.h4.  I have won numerous games with this idea, and called it the "Can-opener" because the h-pawn rips open the Black king.  I found out much later that Tigran Petrosian actually tried this idea a couple of times, so maybe it's actually good.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #1 - 08/21/05 at 21:05:29
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I think White has lost a tempo compared to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.g4.
  

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Guru
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Averbakh without Bg5...??
08/21/05 at 14:16:29
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Hi dudes,
What you think about this wild line:

d4 Nf6
c4 g6
Nc3 Bg7
e4 d6
Be2 O-O
g4!?

  
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