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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Averbakh without Bg5...?? (Read 23493 times)
BladezII
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #69 - 10/22/05 at 02:12:40
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Wait a minute.  I forgot that Black can still play the following move order---

[Event "Bundesliga"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1999.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kachiani, K."]
[Black "Uhlmann, W."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E74"]
[WhiteElo "2425"]
[BlackElo "2460"]
[Annotator "IM A. Martin"]
[PlyCount "61"]
[EventDate "1999.??.??"]

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4

{A different square for White's Bishop to Uhlmann-Ujtumen but it  will come to the same.}

Black can play the following

8....   e6

9. dxe6 Bxe6

This is according to the game that TopNotch provided.  I found it using chesspub.

10. Qd2 Qa5
11. Bxh6 Bxh6
12.Qxh6 Nxe4
13. Rc1 Nc6
14. h4 

And here instead of Uhlman's  14...  Nd4 ?!  Black plays 14.... Rfe8! and after

15. h5  Ne5!

We transpose back to our previous discussion where I showed that Black is doing well after ....Nc6 and has nothing to worry about.  In fact, White has to be very careful as much or more as Black does or he might have the worst of it and maybe find himself lost.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #68 - 10/14/05 at 01:30:29
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Sacapawn,

First I apologize for the long delay in replying.  Along with many other activities that take time in  my life, I have been looking at the possibilites after 10.Be3.  The idea of Kg8 was to get the king out of the h file and I even tried it at an earlier move.  I was seeking for Black to Block the K side, but... regardless.  I am absolutely convinced that White has everything going for him after 10.Be3 and Black has only hopes of not getting mated here.  This set up of Be3 and f3, g4 etc has taken me to seek an improvement upon the whole line.  Yes, I have gone back all the way to this ---


1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6.Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4

And here is my deviation 8...  b5, playing an improved version of the Benko gambit.  This of course is another subject.

I dont know if you were able to tell from my previous posts, but I have no problems recognizing that I had made mistakes and join others in the critique of my ideas.  

I would like to discuss this other possibility of 8... b5, if any of you would like me to start a new thread on this subject, I will do it.  If you think it's ok to do it here, then so be it.

Cheers


  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #67 - 09/20/05 at 02:54:38
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Step away from the computer, read annotated master games, and learn from stronger players.  They know a thing or two!  Sacapawn has some good advice.  Now's a great time to follow it.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #66 - 09/20/05 at 01:49:24
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In a previous post you suggested 14.-,Nb6 but you failed to mention the obvious reply 15.b3! that stops a later Na4 and exchange on c3. A rule of thumb in positional play is that the side with space disadvantage (here Black) benefits from piece exchanges to be able to manouvre more easily. That of course also means that White should try to avoid piece exchanges.

I cannot see the point of 14.-,Kh8.

As I am long ago convinced that White is better after 10.Be3 this is my last post in this thread.

I suggest you get some opponent (OTB or Internet) to play the White side of this position in a couple of games to get a better feeling for White's and Black's possibilities. The longer time control you use the more valuable will the experience be.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #65 - 09/20/05 at 00:11:36
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and what I am seeing is an improvement on 14....  move for Black.  Namely, 14... Kg8

1. d4  Nf6   
2   c4 g6   
3. Nc3 Bg7   
4. e4 d6   
5. Be2 O-O   
6. Bg5 c5   
7. d5 h6   
8. Bf4 Qa5   
9.Qd2 e5   
10. Be3 a6   
11. f3   
 
And now 11.-,h5 is your new move (previously tried are 11.-,Kh7 and 11.-,Nbd7). Your analysis continues 
 
12. h3 Nbd7 
13. g4 Kh7 
 
Ok so far.   
 
"But White does not play 14.gxh5? here. White has an efficient attacking plan starting with 14.Bd3! followed by Nge2, Bg5, Ng3 and gxh5 to soften up Black's kingside."-- Sacapawn 


[/b]So,

14. Bd3    Kg8
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #64 - 09/19/05 at 23:33:04
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Sacapawn, I am follwing your suggested plan for White.  It is very logical.  You also followed my moves or my suggested moves (more correct) "12. h3 Nbd7
13. g4 Kh7 " and I am following your logical plan of -- "White has an efficient attacking plan starting with 14.Bd3! followed by Nge2, Bg5, Ng3 and gxh5 to soften up Black's kingside. " -- Sacapawn.

That being said, I have looked at some ideas on how White might try to slow Black down on the Q side, with a4 or with his own attack on the K-side.  Neither seem to offer much.  Frankly, I believe Black is fine and White has as much a hard time doing everything ideal.  Black also has his own ideas.  And those ideas are real and palpable.  It is a two way game.  Do you have some input for White ?
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #63 - 09/19/05 at 22:23:02
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White must do two things in this position:

Advance where White is strongest. That is the kingside. I have given an idea how to initiate an attack on the kingside in my previous post.

White must stop or slow down Black's counterplay on the queenside. If that can be achieved White's attack will be successful.

Do you think it is possible for White to slow down Black's queenside play after 14.-,Nb6 or should White immidiately continue the attack on the kingside as you suggested? If you have the ambition to analyze this line correctly you should make an effort to  find good moves for White also, otherwise Black will always get a winning advantage in your analyses.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #62 - 09/19/05 at 21:42:45
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I sense a "horizon effect" here.   Tongue
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #61 - 09/19/05 at 20:32:00
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1. d4  Nf6   
2   c4 g6   
3. Nc3 Bg7   
4. e4 d6   
5. Be2 O-O   
6. Bg5 c5   
7. d5 h6   
8. Bf4 Qa5   
9.Qd2 e5   
10. Be3 a6   
11. f3 

And now 11.-,h5 is your new move (previously tried are 11.-,Kh7 and 11.-,Nbd7). Your analysis continues

12. h3 Nbd7
13. g4 Kh7

Ok so far. 

"But White does not play 14.gxh5? here. White has an efficient attacking plan starting with 14.Bd3! followed by Nge2, Bg5, Ng3 and gxh5 to soften up Black's kingside."-- Sacapawn


So,

14. Bd3    Nb6
15.Nge2   Bd7
16. Bg5    Na4

Black is fine.  White is not breaking through so easy and Black eliminates one obstacle for ...b5 .
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #60 - 09/18/05 at 16:41:07
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1. d4  Nf6 
2   c4 g6 
3. Nc3 Bg7 
4. e4 d6 
5. Be2 O-O 
6. Bg5 c5 
7. d5 h6 
8. Bf4 Qa5 
9.Qd2 e5 
10. Be3 a6 
11. f3

And now 11.-,h5 is your new move (previously tried are 11.-,Kh7 and 11.-,Nbd7). Your analysis continues

12. h3 Nbd7
13. g4 Kh7

Ok so far.

But White does not play 14.gxh5? here. White has an efficient attacking plan starting with 14.Bd3! followed by Nge2, Bg5, Ng3 and gxh5 to soften up Black's kingside.

If 14.-,Rb8 15.a4 stops b5 counterplay.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #59 - 09/17/05 at 02:57:28
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Sorry for the delay, school and family and church really took all my time and I am glad to be able to devote a little left over time for this---


1. d4  Nf6
2   c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9.Qd2 e5
10. Be3 a6
11. f3

{I agree that Black must not allow g4 here to be
comfortably played by White.  But he should try...}

11. ....    h5

{And here Black has options to play on Q side and K side.  On the K side with ideas  of h5-h4 Nh5-- Nf4 , etc.  On the Q side wth ... b5 etc. The Question is where does
White castle ?}

12. h3

(12. g4 hxg4 13. O-O-O b5)
(12. h4 Nbd7 13. Bh6 Bxh6 14.Qxh6 Qb4)
(12. Bh6 Bxh6 13. Qxh6 b5 14. cxb5 axb5 15. Bxb5 Ba6 16. Bxa6 Nxa6 17. Nge2 Rfb8   )

12... Nbd7 13. g4 Kh7 14. gxh5 Nxh5

Black looks good.

  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #58 - 09/12/05 at 01:32:30
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Watch out for those edits.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #57 - 09/11/05 at 23:37:17
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1. d4  Nf6 
2. c4 g6 
3. Nc3 Bg7 
4. e4 d6 
5. Be2 O-O 
6. Bg5 c5 
7. d5 h6 
8. Bf4 Qa5 
9. Qd2 e5
10.Be3 a6
11.f3
and now 11.-,Nbd7 is suggested as a new move (11.-,Kh7 was the earlier move)

12.Bxh6 wins a pawn for nothing.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #56 - 09/11/05 at 21:41:47
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"5.  Your post could be interpreted as a means to just attack me or talk negatively about me."

Albatross!
(With many thanks to HgMan, TopNotch and John Cleese).
  

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bakh without Bg5...??
Reply #55 - 09/11/05 at 21:26:27
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1. d4  Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9. Qd2 e5
10. Bxh6

With  good reasons, which most, if not all of them, have been seen, my opinion is the only thing unclear is the reason to believe White has any hope here for anything except a way to secure a draw.  Black will utilize his trumps in this line and they are enough to counter whatever White thinks he has.  But I think we have looked at that plenty.

So let's see the other option--

10. Be3 a6
11. f3 Nbd7
12. g4 Nb6
13. h4 h5
14. g5

A. 14. Nh3 hxg4 15. Ng5 g3 16. f4 Ng4 17. f5 gxf5 18. exf5 Bxf5 19. O-O e4 20. Ncxe4 Qxd2 21. Bxd2 Bxe4
22. Nxe4

B. 14. Bh6 Bxh6 15. Qxh6 Na4

14...    Ne8
15. Nh3 Na4
16. a3 Nxc3
17. Qxc3 Qd8
18. b4 b6

White has nothing.  Black is fine.

Wink
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #54 - 09/11/05 at 21:16:00
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Quote:
5.  Your post could be interpreted as a means to just attack me or talk negatively about me.


Bladez,

No. It was meant to be a satire at the drama unfolded by this whole thread. It was inspired by Gabriel Garcia Marques' Novel "Chronicle of a Death Fore Told" It had nothing to do with you or your analysis. Please don't reply to this. I don't want to be involved in this thread any further.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #53 - 09/11/05 at 16:59:11
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Here is my opinion about BladezII' variation:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 Qa5 9.Qd2 e5 (BladezII' new move)

Now after 10.dxe6 Bxe6 11.Bxh6 and so forth my intuition doesn't say "better for White", but rather "unclear" as in BladezII' variations. If this was the critical variation and I played this as White I would have tried to analyse it thoroughly.

But White can simply play 10.Be3 (evaluated by castlerock as better for White; I agree). BladezII analysis continues 10.-,a6 11.f3 Kh7 12.h4 Nh5.

White can improve with 12.g4! which prevents Nh5. Now Black has difficulties getting any effective counterplay on the queenside (or in the center or the kingside) whereas White's kingside attack is pretty straightforward (h4, Nh3, h5 and if Black plays g5 White shouldn't hesitate to sac either N or B on g5).
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #52 - 09/11/05 at 11:01:22
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1.  I never ever claimed the following -- " an important revelation not known to chess fraternity" And you should not interpret it that way just because I spoke so proudly about it.  The revelation came from you interpreting it in that manner.  After I gave the invitation not to attack anyone, you go ahead and post what you did above.

2.  Since White is obviously playing for a win and the one who carries most if not all of the burden to establish an advantage in the opening, when Black plays a line that objectively or truthfully should give him a comfortable game or deny White of what he is looking for, then it is a problem for White.  That is how what I said should be interpreted because it is what I meant.  A problem does not have to be interpreted as a refutation.   If you don't know what I mean by saying this or that, you can just ask me.

3.  Unless you find 14...  Nc6 in some database, it could be a new idea here.  When you say I claimed any moves before this to be new that is just not right.

4.  When I shared my evaluation of the position I wrote the following :

"I took some time to really evaluate the position here and the appreciate the trumps for Black since White's trumps are already clearly ideantified. Black has valuable trumps that are stong enough to counter
White's. In fact, his trumps must be used immediately since they rely on the temporary weakness of White's position. The Weakness of White's King is just as real and exploitable as Black's Kingside. One of the immediate weakness is that it sits on the open file. The pinned White Knight, White's weakness on the Q side which is significant only because Black can infiltrate with theQueen and find avenues of approach to Black's Kingside after the Q has caused some wreck on the Q side. The better placement of Black's pieces compared to White's, and last but not least Black has a better control of the center."

Fritz or any other programme did not "speak" to me to tell all of this.  I did this on my own.  It also was my motivation to want to show that Black is all right, that given  the circumstances, that the future from this position should at least be good for him as much as it is good for White.

When I gave an exclamation mark to .... Re8 it was also because of the key idea to play the Rook on the open file facing off with White's King.

I shared the reason I did not even consider to post 17. a3.  17. a3 is a suggestion by Fritz, but I thought it made no sense.  I wrote-- " I mean, a3 does nothing for White's development or his attack and does nothing vs the threat of ....Bxc4."   The response Bxc4 does not come from the computer, but rather from the belief that Black must utilize his trumps.

If you keep assuming I let a computer do everything, you are wrong.  I use it for the same reasons that other people use it, it is a great companion when things get messy or when there is complex tactical melee ahead.  I have been playing the game over 21 years;  I  also know a thing or two.

5.  Your post could be interpreted as a means to just attack me or talk negatively about me.  I say "could" hoping (very little hope)  that I am misinterpreting it.  Just in case this applies, attack the ideas not the person.  You have NO right to attack me.  I do not deserve it.  You have no power to determine I do deserve any personal attack.  When the posts become bad posts it "could" be because we start talking bad about others instead of talking about the moves.  Anyone here has the freedom and the right to say what he wants about this or that move and you not liking it or you hating it does not equal you having authority to attack anyone or talk bad about him or her.

To castlerock and Smyslov:  

"What the story is depends on HOW you tell the story and your intentions with it".
« Last Edit: 09/11/05 at 13:14:37 by BladezII »  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #51 - 09/11/05 at 09:52:06
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"Whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy depends on when you end the story."

Thanks, Castlerock!  Grin
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #50 - 09/11/05 at 02:28:41
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No. My one hour with this thread is not a waste. I am able to produce a story. A story that is so surreal, Marques would have loved it. So here it is.

Chronicle of a Thread Fore Closed!

Guru starts a thread where in he replaces g4 instead of Bg5.

This starts a fairly decent discussion where in some conversional issues utlilising g4 came to light. This is despite the side track, whether a line without Bg5 Averbakh or not.

We are hardly in the sixth post and Bladez II makes and important revelation not known to chess fraternity. That the problem of Averbakh System is 6…c5 and produces a line in support of his claim! Let us see.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 0–0 6.Bg5 c5

At this stage my ECO 2004 which has games till Nov 2003 has 2008 games! First indication of a line which has problem! Scores +884 – 499 = 598. 6...c5 is a problem for white says Bladez, not withstanding stats. The saga continues.

At this stage white has two choices 7.d5 and 7.dxc4. Both appear to be good. But only 7.d5 is discussed to question Averbakh. Every one is okay with this.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 0–0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6

At this stage my database has 785 games. +341 -190 =241

Here again there are two promising continuations. 8.Bf4 and 8.Be3. Bladez chooses 8.Bf4 and the forum agrees. Let us continue our saga.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 0–0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 Qa5

This is an important revelation. I have 430 games with 8.Bf4 and 22 (yes twenty two) games with 8...Qa5. That’s how critical the line championed by Bladez is.

Very strong Grandmasters have tried this move, in a bid to convert it to Benoni set up and realized that the resultant positions are murky and not worth venturing in. White has always scored well here but the resultant positions are unclear and hence they are not popular.

Here 9.Bd2 is more critical, because of the murky positions 9.Qd2 leads to, though white has excellent results. This line is unpopular because of 9.Bd2. This is not worth considering! So lets move on!

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 0–0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 Qa5 9.Qd2 e5

e5? Is it e5?? Really e5??? This is the novelty! Grand Masters have tested 9...e6 here to steer the game to Benoni territory. It is not without reason. Centre is locked. White can keep the king in the center and black has no way of reaching it. White’s winning plan suggests itself. Next 10 or 15 moves for white is a no brainer. Be3,a4,Qd2,Bf1,Nge2,g4,h4,Ng3,Be2, Kf1,Kg2,Rh2, Rah1,g5, h5 sac,sac, mate!  It appears to me that black is already in perennial zugzwang!! I don’t have the stomach to analyse chess further.I’ll continue the story,but make it short.

So Bladez takes a tested and discarded line and produces a 12 move analysis. Fridz doesn’t understand strategies. Above discussion is a good example. But Fridz feels Bladez is right and I am wrong. He says he would have played the same move as Bladez.

Smyslov_Fan objects and furnishes analysis. He prefers 8.Bh4

Bladez produces a 13 move analysis with 8.Bh4 to say black is better and Fridz agrees.

Guru says it is Averbakh even if you don’t play Bg5. But by this time the thread is already fore closed.

Smyslov_Fan and Bladez resort to first round of bickering over Kasparov’s analysis.

TopNotch barges in with some very important games with 8.Bf4 and e6 instead of e5. And the thread reverts back to 8.Bf4!

Bladez repeats his original (?) analysis.

After insinuation from Smyslov_Fan, Bladez produces a 29 move wonder to say Black is excellently placed and Fridz agrees with whatever he has to say. End of page one.

TopNotch makes the same conclusion stated above. That this line is messy and black will do well not to enter.

Smyslov_Fan is in the middle of the tournament and takes time off to thank TopNotch.

Bladez changes the analysis and incorporates the novelty Nc6 for black and produces a 36 move analysis to say black is better and Fridz agrees. Here, however, Fridz turns a bit sleezy! It does not inform Bladez that unclear positions will also have to be numerically evaluated and it doesn’t mean anything!!

Second round of Bickering went on involving Smyslov_Fan, TopNotch, Castlerock, Bladez and his alter ego.

Smyslov_Fan produces Kasparov’s analysis and starts third round of bickering. Woofwoof joins in TopNotch drops out.

Bladez produces a new analysis of 33 moves, varying his own 15th move. As usual, Fridz agrees with Bladez.

Smyslov_Fan produces a game to counter Bladez. But a side track on Smyslov_Fan becoming a God starts. End of Page two.

In between this side track Bladez produces another 31 move analysis varying his own 17th move. And you guessed it right. Fridz agrees with him.

Finally, castlerock makes the grave blunder of deciding to study Averbakh in the weekend, thinks what is discussed is the critical line and makes a fool of himself and breaks his own record of foolishness by posting this.

Oh! Well!! As McWatt sings in Catch-22 What the hell !!

End of the Story.

Morals of the Story.

1. People who were involved in this thread after the first six posts are little dense. Fortunately they are a handful and the forum will survive.

2. Fridz does not understand strategy or unclear positions.

3. People who rely exclusively on Fridz will do well to study My System and Zurich International at the minimum. If they do, they will stop their exclusive reliance on frid to do their thinking!
  

CastleRock
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #49 - 09/10/05 at 03:14:51
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Is this last post which has the moves too hard to follow? I honestly tried to make it look simple.  Let me know.

Maybe others can help me simplify it further.  What I have to be careful about is NOT to miss white's options.  That is why it has been a challenge for me, because I have not been perfect at championing the ideas for white and I have made oversights.

But this last post with 17.a3 should be follower friendly.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #48 - 09/10/05 at 02:19:30
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Bladez,

Just do me a favour. Please post one single line which you consider to be the best for black. I tried going through the thread and I don't really make out which line I'm suppose to look in. One plain pgn please.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #47 - 09/10/05 at 01:48:05
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Well, and I feel that 14.h4 may be good enough for White to draw and that is it.  As White, the burden is to win and in this line, after 14.... Nc6 !  Black is fine.  That's my opinion, but I have really enjoyed discussing this in this forum.  Any other KID players who read this are welcome to appreciate Black's trumps in this position and help me fight the case that Black has in his own right, a great game that forces White to be careful as much as Black to avoid losing.  Then, it seems that both parties should just be heading to a draw.  A sign that things are balanced.  I think that the ball in on White's court now since 14.h4 while being undeveloped and with King in center is contrary to principles and White should not think he has the advantage and that he should respect Black for his trumps.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #46 - 09/10/05 at 01:06:07
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Good point,  castlerock!  Grin
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #45 - 09/10/05 at 00:58:43
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I completely missed that 18...Bc4 was possible because I thought 19.b4 was just winning. 


Don't forget to give me a shout when you reach 18...Bc4 in OTB Grin
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #44 - 09/10/05 at 00:37:08
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@Bladez,

Well done!

I completely missed that 18...Bc4 was possible because I thought 19.b4 was just winning.  I'm going to have to look at this a little more seriously since 18...Bc4 may indeed be good enough for a draw (I don't know for sure).  Of course, White has numerous good moves as early as move 13, but that's for another post.

@castlerock and woofwoof:

I'm trying! (you know how trying I am!)   But if I continue to combine responses in single postings, I may never get there! 8)
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #43 - 09/09/05 at 23:31:23
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Are you kidding? One or two days would be my guess Wink


Oh! Possible! Possible! Grin
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #42 - 09/09/05 at 23:04:59
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Aha! I can see that maybe in 1-2 weeks time or so you too will attain divinity!


Are you kidding? One or two days would be my guess Wink
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #41 - 09/09/05 at 22:08:33
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1. d4  Nf6
2.c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9. Qd2 e5
10. dxe6 Bxe6
11. Bxh6  Bxh6
12. Qxh6 Nxe4
13. Rc1 Re8 !
14. h4

{I took some time to really evaluate the position here and the appreciate the trumps for Black since White's trumps are already clearly ideantified. Black has valuable trumps that are stong enough to counter
White's. In fact, his trumps must be used immediately since they rely on the temporary weakness of White's position. The Weakness of White's King is just as real and exploitable as Black's Kingside. One of the immediate weakness is that it sits on the open file. The pinned White Knight, White's weakness on the Q side which is significant only because Black can infiltrate with theQueen and find avenues of approach to Black's Kingside after the Q has caused some wreck on the Q side. The better placement of Black's pieces compared to
White's, and last but not least Black has a better control of the center.}

14....     Nc6 !
15. h5

{It makes no sense to move the black g-pawn forward and it is just a bad move and a bad idea to provide another target for White. But it makes all
the sense to bring yet another piece to the center which will also cover the K-side, thus accentuating the trumps I mentioned earlier for Black. If it wasn't for the people of the forum, I could not refine Black's play.
Nevertheless, Black's trumps are real just as real as White's. White's King is AT LEAST as exposed as Black's. And Black has a mobile army to take advantage
of that. So the following move makes total sense and it is a strong supporter of the move 14.... Nc6 !}

(15. Nf3 Nxc3 16. Rxc3 Bxc4 17. O-O Bxe2 18. Ng5 (18.
h5) 18... Qxa2 19. Qh7+ Kf8 20. b3 Nd8 21. Qh8+ Ke7 22. Re3+ Ne6 23. Qg7 Kd7 24. Nxe6 Re7 25. Nxc5+ dxc5 26. Rxe7+ Kxe7 {It is White who has to play just to draw.})

(15. Kf1 Nxc3 16. Rxc3 Qxa2 17. Qc1 Nd4 18. h5 Nb3
19. Qd1 Nd4 20. Rg3 Bxc4 21. Bxc4 Qxc4+ 22. Rd3 {
White is in trouble})

15... Ne5 !
16. hxg6

*[16. f3 Ng3

(16... Nxc3 17. Rxc3 Qxa2 18. hxg6 Nxg6 19. Qh7+ Kf8 20. Qh6+ Ke7 {Black can take a draw here with 20... Kg8 if he wants} 21. Qc1 Qa4 {With idea of ...Rh8 and Black is a pawn up. )

*continued
17. hxg6 Nxh1 18. Qh7+ Kf8 19. g7+ Ke7 20. Qh4+ f6 21. Qxh1 Kd7 {Black has idea of ...Nxc4 and/or ...Re7 ....Rag8} 22. Kf2 Re7 23. f4 Nxc4 24.
f5 Bg8 25. Qh4 Ne3 26. Ne4 Nxf5 27. Bg4 Rxe4 28. Bxf5+ Re6 29. Bxe6+ Bxe6 30.Qxf6 Qd2+ 31. Ne2 Re8 and this looks promising for Black, the g--pawn looks like a liability that will soon just be lost. ] *

16...      Nxg6
17. a3

{I had taken a look at this move but after I did the following analysis I decided this is not worth mentioning.  I mean, a3 does nothing for White's development or his attack and does nothing vs the
threat of ....Bxc4. I regret not including it on one hand.  On the other hand,I am pleased to show you the following:}

(17. Nf3 Nxc3 18. bxc3 Qxa2 19. Nd2 d5
20. Rd1 Rad8 {White may not have anything better than to take the draw by perpetual.}
21.Qh7+ Kf8 22. Qh6+ Ke7 23. Ne4 dxe4 24. Qg5+ Kf8 )

17...        Nxc3
18. Rxc3  Bxc4  

No exclamation mark; this move should be really obvious.
Black has to play using his trumps.  He has  powerful trumps so let's used  them.  A move like Qb6 ?  has no intentions of using his trumps.  Black highlights with this Bishop move the White King sits on the open e-file.

19. b4

**(19. Qd2 Qa6

{Black has a very clever and potentially killer idea of ...d5 which connects the Qa6 with the King side and starts rolling his extra pawn and adds  further pressure to e2.  Black is still using his trumps !.}

20. Rg3 d5 21. Qh6 Qf6 {White has to be worried now and worried a lot !} )**

19...    cxb4
20.Qh7+

{white has to play for the draw unless he wants to take a zero chance of winning and some chances of losing.  For example:}

(20. Rxc4 bxa3+ 21. Qd2 (21.Kf1 a2) 21...  Re5 {Black is playing for the win.})

20....         Kf8

21. Qh6+   Kg8

  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #40 - 09/09/05 at 14:03:55
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Woofwoof,

You're on to me!

Grin
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #39 - 09/09/05 at 12:41:19
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I am very careful not to edit content.  I would much rather add another comment than do that. (I want to have as many comments as possible anyway!  Grin)


Aha! I can see that maybe in 1-2 weeks time or so you too will attain divinity!
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #38 - 09/09/05 at 02:08:00
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I'll check it up later. But I'm not too sure, Chessbase reads Smileys Tongue
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #37 - 09/09/05 at 01:30:28
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Quote:
I took some time to really evaluate the position here and the appreciate the trumps for Black since White's trumps are already clearly ideantified. Black has valuable trumps that are stong enough to counter
White's. In fact, his trumps must be used immediately since they rely on the temporary weakness of White's position. The Weakness of White's King is just
as real and exploitable as Black's Kingside. One of the immediate weakness is that it sits on the open file. The pinned White Knight, White's weakness on the Q side which is significant only because Black can infiltrate with the Queen and find avenues of approach to Black's Kingside after the Q has caused some wreck on the Q side. The better placement of Black's pieces compared to
White's, and last but not least Black has a better control of the center.}

14...    Nc6 !
15. h5 .....

It makes no sense to move the black g-pawn forward and it is just a bad move and a bad idea to provide another target for White.  But it makes all the sense to bring yet another piece to  the center which will also cover the K-side, thus accentuating the trumps I
mentioned earlier for Black.  If it wasn't for the people of the forum, I could not refine Black's play.  Nevertheless, Black's trumps are real just as real as White's.  White's King is AT  LEAST as exposed as Black's.  And Black
has a mobile army to take advantage of that.  So the following move makes total sense and it is a strong supporter of the move 14....   Nc6 !


15...    Ne5 !
16. hxg6 Nxg6
17. Nf3 Nxc3
18. bxc3 Qxa2
19. Nd2 d5
20. Rd1 Rad8



My conclusion (in my opinion) is that White has nothing in this line.  If he is looking for an advantage, it's not in this line.  14.... Nc6 is strong.



(The first paragraph is just a copy of a previous message, so I will ignore that for now.)

Bladez now recommends 15....Ne5 and berates his own idea of 15...g5.  That's fine, now let's go down that line.  Please remember that I predicted that rather than acknowledge the strength of White's opening based on analysis by Kasparov and others or based on the abysmal score (66% for White since 1993), we would have to go to individual lines to prove White's advantage.

@Castlerock,

Please let me know if the following is PGN readable.  I'm transferring my own game notes directly here and not adding to them.


Kachiani Gersinska,K (2427) - Uhlmann,W (2461) [E74]
Bundesliga 9900 Germany (3.7), 06.11.1999
[and,Dan]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 e6 9.dxe6 Bxe6 10.Qd2 Qa5 11.Bxh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Nxe4 13.Rc1 Nc6 [13...Re8! The exclamation mark belongs to BladezII.    White has a sizable advantage, as the following analysis bears out. 14.h4 Nc6! Bladez' exclamation.  (I disagree pretty strongly here.  White just gets the better game.) 15.h5 g5 Bladez' move. a)15...Ne7 Bladez may turn to this next, suggesting it's an improvement. 16.hxg6 Nxg6 17.Bd3 Nxc3 18.Kf1 Qxa2 19.Bxg6 Qxc4+ Forced. 20.Ne2 Qxe2+ Again Forced. 21.Kg1 And Black can resign.; b)15...Ng3 16.fxg3; c)15...Ne5 Bladez' new move as of 9/8/05, and coincidentally, Fritz' first line. Here's a nice line for White: 16.hxg6 Nxg6 17.a3 Nxc3 18.Rxc3 Qb6 (Fritz is playing Black.) 19.b4! cxb4 20.c5!! Although Fritz actually found this move, using Nunn's axiom, always analyse forcing moves first, I would also have found it.  Now, the trumps that Bladez spoke of (King safety, better queen placement,  and so on) all clearly belong to White.  The continuation is just for those who like gore.  I love gore!! 20...dxc5 21.Rg3 Bg4 I think most people would consider resigning rather than play Bg4. 22.Rxg4 Qf6 23.Qc1! (c)23.Qh7+ Kf8 24.f3 is also probably good enough for White here.) 23...bxa3 24.Qxa3 b5! Mobilizing the Q-side pawns is Black's only hope. 25.Rh3 Fritz recommends the cold-blooded  25.Kf1 here, but I thought I'd see if I could win against Fritz "my way". 25...Qf5 26.f3 c4 27.Qa1 Fritz points out that 27.Qb2 is of course more accurate. 27...Qe5 28.Qb1 Rad8 After I played this, Fritz changed its mind and preferred 28...Re6, which also loses. 29.Kf1 a5 (c)29...Rd4 30.Rhh4 Rxg4 31.Rxg4 a6 32.f4 Qe4 33.Qc1 Re6 34.Bf3 Qd3+ 35.Ne2 Kf8 36.Qa1 Rd6 37.Kf2 Qd1 38.Qa3 Qd2 39.Qc5 Ne7 40.f5 Rf6 41.Rd4 Qa5! Shucks, computers defend well.   42.Qe5 I missed 42.Rd6! here, but I am still winning. 42...Qb6 43.g4 Rh6 44.Kg3 I didn't like 44.Kg2 Nc6 45.Bc6 Qc6+.  It probably wasn't anything serious, but why bother with it when this is good. 44...b4 45.Rxc4 a5 46.Rc7 Qd6 47.Qxd6 Rxd6 48.Ra7 Rb6 49.Rxa5 Ke8 50.Nd4 b3 51.Ra8+ Kd7 52.f6 Nc8 53.Be4 Kc7 54.g5 Nd6 55.Bb1 Rb4 56.Nf3 b2 57.g6 fxg6 58.Ra7+ Kc6 59.f7 Rb8 60.Ne5+ Kb6 61.Ra2 Kc7 62.Rxb2 Nxf7 63.Rxb8 Kxb8 64.Nxf7 Smiley) 30.Rhg3 Rd6 31.Rg5 And even Fritz is ready to throw in the towel here.; 16.f3 And all of a sudden, Fritz 7 begins to agree with me.  Hmm. 16...Nxc3 17.Qxg5+ Kh7 18.bxc3 (18.Rxc3 Qxa2 19.h6 Qb1+ 20.Kf2 Qg6 21.Bd3 f5 22.Qxg6+ Kxg6 23.Ne2±) 18...Qd8] 14.h4 Nd4 15.Kf1 Nf5 16.Qf4 Nxc3 17.Rxc3 Qb4 18.Qc1 Kg7 19.h5 Rh8 20.Nf3 Qa5 21.Ng5 Rae8 22.Rch3 Nd4 23.Nxe6+ Rxe6 24.Bg4 f5 25.hxg6 Rxh3 26.Rxh3 fxg4 27.Qh6+ Kf6 28.Qf8+ Kg5 29.f4+ gxf3 30.Rg3+ Kh4 31.Qf4+ And mate next move. 1-0

You will notice that rather than delete anything from my original notes, which were ignored by Bladez, I simply added the lines against 15...Ne5.

I've enjoyed playing against Fritz in this line because it was very optimistic about its position for a long time, then switched radically to supporting White.  It's nice to see a computer admit that I'm right about the line.  Wink

The key improvement (though not the only possible one) in Bladez' line is 17.a3.  It doesn't even deserve an exclam because it is so very natural.  See what you think!

  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #36 - 09/08/05 at 23:47:10
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1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5 9. Qd2 e5
10. dxe6 Bxe6
11. Bxh6 Bxh6
12. Qxh6 Nxe4
13. Rc1 Re8!
14. h4
I took some time to really evaluate the position here and the appreciate the trumps for Black since White's trumps are already clearly ideantified. Black has valuable trumps that are stong enough to counter
White's. In fact, his trumps must be used immediately since they rely on the temporary weakness of White's position. The Weakness of White's King is just
as real and exploitable as Black's Kingside. One of the immediate weakness is that it sits on the open file. The pinned White Knight, White's weakness on the Q side which is significant only because Black can infiltrate with the Queen and find avenues of approach to Black's Kingside after the Q has caused some wreck on the Q side. The better placement of Black's pieces compared to
White's, and last but not least Black has a better control of the center.}

14...    Nc6 !
15. h5 .....

It makes no sense to move the black g-pawn forward and it is just a bad move and a bad idea to provide another target for White.  But it makes all the sense to bring yet another piece to  the center which will also cover the K-side, thus accentuating the trumps I
mentioned earlier for Black.  If it wasn't for the people of the forum, I could not refine Black's play.  Nevertheless, Black's trumps are real just as real as White's.  White's King is AT  LEAST as exposed as Black's.  And Black
has a mobile army to take advantage of that.  So the following move makes total sense and it is a strong supporter of the move 14....   Nc6 !

15...    Ne5 !
16. hxg6

*[16. f3 Ng3 ]...

(Or 16... Nxc3 17. Rxc3 Qxa2 18. hxg6 Nxg6 19. Qh7+ Kf8 20. Qh6+ Ke7 ({Black can take a draw here with 20... Kg88)  }  21. Qc1 Qa4 {With idea of ...Rh8 and Black is a pawn up.)

...*[Continued
17. hxg6 Nxh1 18. Qh7+ Kf8 19. g7+ Ke7 20. Qh4+ f6 21. Qxh1 Kd7 {Black has idea of ...Nxc4 and/or ...Re7 ....Rag8}

22. Kf2 Re7 23. f4 Nxc4 24.f5 Bg8 25. Qh4 Ne3 26. Ne4 Nxf5 27. Bg4 Rxe4 28. Bxf5+ Re6 29. Bxe6+ Bxe6 30. Qxf6 Qd2+ 31. Ne2 Re8 {and this looks promising for Black, the g--pawn looks like a liability that will soon just be lost.]*

Now continuing my main line:

16...   Nxg6
17. Nf3 Nxc3
18. bxc3 Qxa2
19. Nd2 d5
20. Rd1 Rad8

White may not have anything better than to take the draw by perpetual.  i.e.

21.Qh7+ Kf8
22. Qh6+ Ke7
23. Ne4 dxe4
24. Qg5+ Kf8

My conclusion (in my opinion) is that White has nothing in this line.  If he is looking for an advantage, it's not in this line.  14.... Nc6 is strong.

Now, for the other matter, how I talk about this or that variation does not mean I deserve or that you or anybody has a right to disrespect or attack ME.  Attack the line, but NOT me.  No one is forcing you to do this or that.  In the US, the only thing we HAVe to do is die and pay taxes, everything else is your choice.

From now on I pledge and I invite you all to the following:  Let's get along and let's discuss chess and moves in chess or ideas, not people.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #35 - 09/08/05 at 20:14:09
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 Just because some people disagree with you does not  mean that they have anything against you personally ...


Absolutely Right!

Thanks woofwoof and Castlerock for reminding me why I enjoy this site.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #34 - 09/08/05 at 10:21:11
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Quote:
@Bladez,

In other words, I don't see 6...c5 as being the problem with the Averbakh system.  It's probably Black's best continuation, but not necessarily the problem, as Bladez contested.


I agree with that. I'm a lover of the KID, while i might be bold enough to say that 6....c5 is black's best move in striving for equality and counterplay in this system, it is by no means the refutation of the system.

@bladez - I know you love the KID passionately & obviously have done your fair share of work on it. Please remember that this is a public forum - a place to share ideas, opinions & to support one another. My impression from looking at the bickering so far is that it does appear that you are trying hard to shove your opinions down everyone's throat like its some kind of gospal truth. Given that it is a public forum means that different people of different backgrounds, tastes, styles & experiences also participate hence there will bound to be some who agree or disagree with whatever opinions you may have, even good or well intentioned ones.  Just becasue some people disagree with you does not  mean that they have anything against you personally or the KID for that matter. The fact that the KID is still being played & still popular shows that it does not need apologists to defend it against any so called 'persecutions'.

As far as this thread is concerned , i was initially looking forward to a lively discussion & exchange of ideas & opinions, but somehow lost interest when I saw all those long lines of analyses and constant bickering. I agree with Castlerock that this thread is beginning to sound like a BDG thread.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #33 - 09/08/05 at 03:22:01
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My game notes may not be PGN friendly, I don't know.  If they aren't please advise me on how to make them more usable!



Enter the game, variations and your comments in chasebase, copy the game and paste it on to the message editor and don't change anything there. Further comments can be made by referring to the game at a different place. This is the method I'm following and hope it's okay.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #32 - 09/08/05 at 03:00:32
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Castlerock,

Thank you for your considered remarks.  I would like to point out that while I do edit my remarks quite a bit, they are almost entirely to do with spelling and grammatical errors that I catch or with making something look better by adding bold typeface and the like. 

I am very careful not to edit content.  I would much rather add another comment than do that. (I want to have as many comments as possible anyway!  Grin)

My game notes may not be PGN friendly, I don't know.  If they aren't please advise me on how to make them more usable!

  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #31 - 09/08/05 at 02:52:40
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@Bladez,

As long as you don't backtrack on any of your previous comments, I won't respond, because they speak for themselves. 

Here is the analysis you wanted, and thank you for acknowledging that you do use computers.  So do I, but I hope the discerning viewer will be able to detect a difference in the way we each use the machines. 



Kachiani Gersinska,K (2427) - Uhlmann,W (2461) [E74]
Bundesliga 9900 Germany (3.7), 06.11.1999

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 e6 9.dxe6 Bxe6 10.Qd2 Qa5 11.Bxh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Nxe4 13.Rc1 Nc6

[13...Re8!
The exclamation mark belongs to BladezII.    White has a sizable advantage, as the following analysis bears out. 14.h4 Nc6! Bladez' exclamation.  (I disagree pretty strongly here.  White just gets the better game.) 15.h5 g5 Bladez' move. (15...Ne7 Bladez may turn to this next, suggesting it's an improvement. 16.hxg6 Nxg6 17.Bd3 Nxc3 18.Kf1 Qxa2 19.Bxg6 Qxc4+ Forced. 20.Ne2 Qxe2+ Again Forced. 21.Kg1 And Black can resign.)

16.f3 And all of a sudden, Fritz 7 begins to agree with me.  Hmm. 16...Nxc3 17.Qxg5+ Kh7 18.bxc3 (18.Rxc3 Qxa2 19.h6 Qb1+ 20.Kf2 Qg6 21.Bd3 f5 22.Qxg6+ Kxg6 23.Ne2±) 18...Qd8]

14.h4 Nd4 15.Kf1 Nf5 16.Qf4 Nxc3 17.Rxc3 Qb4 18.Qc1 Kg7 19.h5 Rh8 20.Nf3 Qa5 21.Ng5 Rae8 22.Rch3 Nd4 23.Nxe6+ Rxe6 24.Bg4 f5 25.hxg6 Rxh3 26.Rxh3 fxg4 27.Qh6+ Kf6 28.Qf8+ Kg5 29.f4+ gxf3 30.Rg3+ Kh4 31.Qf4+ And mate next move. 1-0


This doesn't prove White's advantage in all lines, but I didn't claim that

Quote:
[/b]The problem with the Averbakh system is 6... c5.  This is the most critical continuation, immediately attacking the center.



In other words, I don't see 6...c5 as being the problem with the Averbakh system.  It's probably Black's best continuation, but not necessarily the problem, as Bladez contested.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #30 - 09/08/05 at 02:03:38
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Bladez,

I don’t know why I am getting suckered into this. Perhaps, because of this. If someone thinks quite a few KID threads are turning into a circus like BDG posts, he/she is not alone.

Have you ever thought why Smyslov_Fan and TopNotch and to a miniscule extent I wrote what we wrote? Your obstinate passion to champion KID in general and your lines in particular made you chose words, which are bordering on insults and name calling. And others returned the favour. Now, I am not saying you meant it or did it on purpose. If others took it this way, I can’t blame them either.

So in this post I’m not talking chess and I want to put some of my thoughts for everyone’s consideration.

1.      This is probably the best place to discuss chess. Lots of strong players, coaches, IM’s GM’s and book authors give their insights. I’m reasonably sure everyone here gets back more than what they give. Hence, it is our primary responsibility to keep it sane and conducive for IM’s and GM’s visit. Hijacking every thread to one’s whims is hardly the way to do it.
2.      This a virtual medium and one does not have any means of verifying claims beyond what he/she has to say. I don’t think anybody wants to be discourteous on purpose. But since body language is not visible, words will have to portray it. At the minimum, it should not deemed discourteous.
3.      This is a free forum and people comment and help each other. There’s no point in lamenting “No response” after making things difficult for other posters. For example going over lines of Bladez is an ordeal. One has to shift between chessbase and browser to enter the moves. Pgn friendly posts normally get better response. We should avoid editing in the browser, after pasting the game from pgn reader. Of course, Bladez is not alone in this. Smyslov_Fan is his comrade in crime. There are others as well.
4.      Fridzy analyses are okay and in fact, are needed so long as they conform to the general principles and strategic guidelines of the opening in question. For example in Petrosian line if I produce some king side counter play, with the help of fridz, not bothering to prepare for b4 or queen side play, and call it a great novelty, people will stop reading my posts.

I’m sorry if I hurt you or any one else, Bladze. I’ll get back to your line soon.

Cordially,

Castlerock
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #29 - 09/07/05 at 21:26:40
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Let's see really,  objectively---

"@BladezII, 

First of all, I admit that my sardonic attack on you was not warranted.  I'm sorry. "  Smyslov, even though you apologized, you did attack me for no justifiable reason.  I posted something which reflected my opinion and I was attacked.  Did I  get defensive?  If I did, can you blame me?

Second, "You still make the same mistake of claiming that this single variation will undermine White's Bg5" -- I never made such a claim and that is clear, Smyslov.  Another attack or accusation , if you will from you.

Third,  "You made the same mistake in evaluating the Saemisch in another thread" That was about my line in the Saemisch Be3 c5 post.  You say it was a mistake.  There is no post and no supportive reasons at all, just an empty statement as to why you declare my line a mistake.  Just the fact that you declare it a mistake imposes you got something to back it up wether right or wrong.

Fourth, "Toppy,  BladezII doesn't see the transposition that would occur after 11.Bh6.  That's his problem, not yours. "  Is what you wrote earlier , to which I responded with:  " You are totally right, Smyslov-Fan.  I just read the moves and did not have it on board. "

I have no problem with noticing I can be wrong.  I know I am human.

Fifth, "Castlerock, he claimed the same thing after Nd7 and gave the whole idea of Nc6 a question mark, then after my response rather than make an effort to save his line he simply flip flopped and is now promoting Nc6 with the same exaggerated bluster.

His analysis is too superficial to be taken seriously, its evident that he simply adds comments to fritz variations without any meaningful analytical effort of his own. This is a lazy practice and for this reason I will not waste anymore time pointing out why Nc6 does not give black an easy life either.

In short I will not reward laziness by doing peoples analysis for them. " (this was written by Toppy"

He called me lazy, he called the analysis too superficial, yet you say I went 20 moves DEEP.  He says I made no analytical effort of my own, yet I made many candidate moves for white in accordance to his logical plans and tactical, defensive and offensive options and ideas.

He says I went back to ...Nc6 (he called it a flip flop).  BUT, he is the one calling me superficial and says I make no analytical effort of his own.  Yet, those of you who have made an analytical effert of your own, without being superficial have noticed that the ....Nc6 move made in the game he included is way way different than the ....Nc6 move I am promoting, and I have stated why.

Also part of this is the fact that I said BEFORE I delved into variation the following:

"I took some time to really evaluate the position here and to appreciate the trumps for Black since White's trumps were already clearly identified.  Black has valuable trumps that are stong to counter White's.  In fact, his trumps must be used immediately since they rely on the temporary weakness of White's position and his better placement.
The Weakness of White's King is just as real and exploitable as Black's Kingside.  One of the immediate weakness is that it sits on the open file.   

Other trumps for Black:  The pinned White Knight, White's weakness on the Q side which is significant only because Black can infiltrate with the Queen and find avenues of approach to Black's Kingside after the Q has caused some wreck on the Q side.   

The better placement of Black's pieces compared to
White's, and last but not least Black has a better control of the center.

There is no point really in elminating Black's well place Knight for the Nc3, so....  14....  Nc6"

It is evident that I did follow Toppy's advice to look at the position and delve into it before I start making moves.

Sixth and lastly for this particular post,  you say you or others accuse me of using a computer to do my analysis.   Wait a minute,  I have openly said I do.  I use a computer to check over the lines I want to try to check my ideas and I use it exactly for what they are strong in... tactical melee.   This is something normal.   There is no accusing and no guilt trip.  This is not an over the board game or an internet game this is a discussion forum, for good grief !

Now, can we get back to the subject of chess and of those lines ?

Please !

Shocked
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #28 - 09/07/05 at 13:45:15
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@Mike Bladez,

I have taken a look at your lines, and if you hated to answer the way you did, I wonder who made you do it.  your anger and defensiveness has been noted by just about all who respond to you.

I congratulate you and thank you for your service in Iraq (you aren't the only one).

BUT

That has no bearing whatsoever on your manner here, and on your analysis, or serious lack thereof.  You give a single line more than 20 moves deep and act as if it's an all-out refutation.  You make claims, and when challenged you attack, rather than think.  Let's take a look at what you have recently said:

(Edited on 9/4/2005)
Quote:
Going back to the Main line--

15...        Nxc3 
16. Rxc3  Qxa2 
17. Qc1   Nd4 
18. h5     Nb3 
19. Qd1  Nd4 
20. Rg3   Bxc4 
21. Bxc4  Qxc4+ 

White is in trouble



Then,

9/7/2005
Quote:
14... Nc6 makes a world of difference and I can't find anygame in chessbase with that move.  It is a great move from my angle and it makes great sense not to take the Nc3 , really.

Smyslov, have you looked over my line, this very last one?


Your very last line goes back to the same mistake TopNotch has already pointed out.  I don't need to make any comments since TopNotch has already done so.  You still avoid discussing Kasparov's work, so I will take some time today and address in detail what you have avoided all along.

The reason others have accused you of pulling out a computer for your analysis is that humans rarely give lines that are twenty moves deep with almost no comment and then decide that one side has won or lost. And it's even rarer for a human to declare that this proves that a move such as 6....c5 refutes White's opening because of a single variation.

Furthermore, your position starting at move 12 has been analysed by strong players, and has been considered weak for Black.  You aren't creating a new variation as you claim.  Please do some research, and change your tone.  I can take abuse, but I don't need to.  I hope you exorcise your demons elsewhere.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #27 - 09/07/05 at 12:57:59
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No, you have it wrong.  His move is not a return to Nc6 as his previous post.  Take a closer look and you will see the great difference.  It has been written more than once, Black does NOT capture the Nc3 thus it does not help white bring his rook into play with Rxc3.  Top, take a closer look or else your opinion might just be fluff and no substance.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #26 - 09/07/05 at 08:45:58
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Quote:
No I haven't, as yet. If I did, I would have posted, even if it means you are right! Grin Sooner I guess, particularly after the claim of great novelty Wink


Castlerock, he claimed the same thing after Nd7 and gave the whole idea of Nc6 a question mark, then after my response rather than make an effort to save his line he simply flip flopped and is now promoting Nc6 with the same exaggerated bluster.

His analysis is too superficial to be taken seriously, its evident that he simply adds comments to fritz variations without any meaningful analytical effort of his own. This is a lazy practice and for this reason I will not waste anymore time pointing out why Nc6 does not give black an easy life either.

In short I will not reward laziness by doing peoples analysis for them.

Toppy Grin
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #25 - 09/07/05 at 01:18:26
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Quote:
  Castlerock did, and even I dont know if he has looked at this last one and seen it with his own eyes , but here 14... Nc6 makes a world of difference and I can't find anygame in chessbase with that move.  It is a great move from my angle and it makes great sense not to take the Nc3 , really.


No I haven't, as yet. If I did, I would have posted, even if it means you are right! Grin Sooner I guess, particularly after the claim of great novelty Wink
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #24 - 09/07/05 at 01:03:03
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I hate to answer like this, but...  Smyslov, I feel you hardly look over my line.  Castlerock did, and even I dont know if he has looked at this last one and seen it with his own eyes , but here 14... Nc6 makes a world of difference and I can't find anygame in chessbase with that move.  It is a great move from my angle and it makes great sense not to take the Nc3 , really.

Smyslov, have you looked over my line, this very last one?
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #23 - 09/07/05 at 00:07:31
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Bladez,

I know I sound like a broken record, but have you actually looked up Kasparov's analysis that I mentioned a while back?
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #22 - 09/04/05 at 11:10:37
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1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9. Qd2 e5
10. dxe6  Bxe6
11. Bxh6  Bxh6
12. Qxh6 Nxe4
13. Rc1 Re8
14. h4

I took some time to really evaluate the position here and to appreciate the trumps for Black since White's trumps were already clearly identified.  Black has valuable trumps that are stong to counter White's.  In fact, his trumps must be used immediately since they rely on the temporary weakness of White's position and his better placement.
The Weakness of White's King is just as real and exploitable as Black's Kingside.  One of the immediate weakness is that it sits on the open file.  

Other trumps for Black:  The pinned White Knight, White's weakness on the Q side which is significant only because Black can infiltrate with the Queen and find avenues of approach to Black's Kingside after the Q has caused some wreck on the Q side.  

The better placement of Black's pieces compared to
White's, and last but not least Black has a better control of the center.

There is no point really in elminating Black's well place Knight for the Nc3, so....

14....   Nc6!
15. Kf1

*A)15. h5 g5 16. Nf3 ....

A1)16. f4 Nd4 17. g4 (17. fxg5?? Nf5) 17... Nxe2 18. Ngxe2 Bxc4 19. f5 Nxc3

A2)16.Kf1 Nd2+ 17. Ke1 Ne4

*A)--continued--
16.....   Bf5 17. Nxg5 Nd4 18. Ngxe4 Rxe4 19. Kf1 Re6 20.Qg5+ Kh8  

*The initiative turns now to Black who has Ideas of Rg8.  And White really runs out of useful moves and is now on the defensive. *

*A) continued

21. Re1 Rg8 22.Qd2 Rge8 23. Rh4 Nxe2 24. Rxe2 Rxe2 25. Qh6+ Kg8 26. Qg5+ Kf8 27. Nxe2 Qxa2 28.g3 .... *

(28. Kg1 Qb1+ 29. Nc1 {Black is in command.  He can decide to end the game immediately or play on.  For example:} Re1+ 30. Kh2 Ke8 31. Nb3 Rh1+ 32. Kg3
Rxh4 33. Kxh4 Qe4+ 34. g4 Qh1+ 35. Kg3 Qg1+ 36. Kh3 Qh1+)

*28... Qb1+ 29. Nc1 Qc2 30. h6 Be4 31. Qg7+ Ke7 32. Qc3 Qxc3 33. bxc3 Kf6

And Black will use his powerful trumps, the Bishop and the a-passed pawn to play for his chances to win.

B)
15.Nf3 Nxc3
16.Rxc3 Bxc4
17.0–0 Bxe2
18.Ng5 Qxa2
19.Qh7+ Kf8
20.b3 Nd8
21.Qh8+ Ke7
22.Re3+ Ne6
23.Qg7 Kd7
24.Nxe6 Re7
25.Nxc5+ dxc5
26.Rxe7+ Kxe7


It is White who has to play just to draw.

Going back to the Main line--

15...        Nxc3
16. Rxc3  Qxa2
17. Qc1   Nd4
18. h5     Nb3
19. Qd1  Nd4
20. Rg3   Bxc4
21. Bxc4  Qxc4+

White is in trouble

  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #21 - 09/04/05 at 00:18:15
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Again,

Thx Toppy.  I'm in the middle of a tournament right now, but I may find time to do some analysis afterwards.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #20 - 09/03/05 at 20:40:42
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Quote:
You are totally right, Smyslov-Fan.  I just read the moves and did not have it on board.  To have it on board would have taken less time than to type what I typed earlier.  I will tackle the issue, Topp.



[White "Zaichuk,Vitaliy"]
[Black "Wong,Victor"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E74"]

1.c4 Nf6
2.d4 g6
3.Nc3 Bg7
4.e4 d6
5.Be2 c5
6.d5 0-0
7.Bg5 h6
8.Bf4 e6
9.dxe6 Bxe6
10.Qd2 Qa5
11.Bxh6 Bxh6
12.Qxh6 Nxe4
13.Rc1 Re8!
14.h4 Nxc3
15.Rxc3 Qxa2
16.Qc1 Qa5
17.h5 Nc6??
18.Kf1 Qc7
19.Rg3

1-0

Black made a costly mistake there but the fact, the truth is White has absolutely nothing here after the accurate:

17...  Nd7!
18. hxg6

**OR with the similar idea as the game mentioned above--

[Variation here
18. Kf1 Ne5
19. hxg6
(19. f4 Nc6 20. hxg6 fxg6 21. Rg3 Bf5 22. Bd3 Bxd3+
23. Rxd3 Nd4 24. Rdh3 Kg7 25. Nf3 Rh8 26. b4 Qa2!! 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28. f5 Raf8 29. Rxh8 Rxf5+ 30. Kg1 Qf2+) 19...   Nxg6
20. Rg3 Kg7
21. Qh6+ Kf6
22. f4 Bxc4
23. Rxg6+  

[[23.Bd7 [23.Nh3 Re7 24.Ng5 (24.Nf2 Rae8 25.Nxe4 Rxe4 26.Kf2 Rd4) 24...Rae8 25.Bf3 Bd3+] 23...Re7 24.f5 Ne5 25.Be6+ Rxe6 26.fxe6 Nd3 27.Qc3 Qxc3 28.bxc3 Re8 29.Nf3 Rxe6 Black is OK here.]]

23....   fxg6
24. Qg5+ Kg7]**

Now with the main line
18...     fxg6
19. Rh4

[19.Qh6 Qa1+]

19...    Kg7
20. Qh6+  Kf7
21. Nf3   Qa1+
22. Bd1   Bf5+
23. Re3   Rxe3+
24. fxe3  Re8
25. e4    Ne5

Split the point, shake hands and go grab a bite.



Admittedly this is a very complicated and messy line, having said that and as a KID player myself I wouldnt touch this for Black with a ten foot pole. Grin

You say that in the Zaichuk vs Wong game that "Black made a costly mistake there but the fact, the truth is White has absolutely nothing here".

Your analysis does not convince me, one only has to look at the White pieces massing ominously on Black's compromised Kingside to feel that he should have something.

Ok lets try to confirm intuition with some analysis:

1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 c5 6.d5 0-0 7.Bg5 h6 8.Bf4 e6 9.dxe6 Bxe6 10.Qd2 Qa5 11.Bxh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Nxe4 13.Rc1 Re8 14.h4 Nxc3 15.Rxc3 Qxa2 16.Qc1 Qa5 17.h5 Nd7N This is your intended improvement on the  Zaichuk vs Wong game that went 17...Nc6. Fair enough, lets take a closer look to determine whether your improvement holds up 18. Kf1 Ne5  19. hxg6 Ng6 20.Rg3 Kg7 Now you fail to acknowledge that White can take a draw here by perpetual check if he likes, but in any case there is no need for that 21.b3! And Black is dead lost as there is no adequate way to meet the terminal threat of Qb2+.    

This is why I stress the importance of developing ones chess intuition as opposed to simply relying on computer generated analysis, it does not take a rocket scientist to see  that Black's position looks highly suspect and vurnerable after 17.h5. Of course one's sense of danger has to be validated with analysis, but time and again the maxim if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are its a duck proves to be correct.

I suspect that your main source of reference is An Opening Repertoire For The Positional Player - Gufeld & Kalinichenko , this is not a bad repertoire book as far as repertoire books go but it is filled with analytical mistakes and ommissions, and one has to check everything carefully.

Conclusion: The line under question is indeed complicated, but in the final analysis the complications ultimately favor White.

Toppylov Grin    
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #19 - 09/03/05 at 14:07:43
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You are totally right, Smyslov-Fan.  I just read the moves and did not have it on board.  To have it on board would have taken less time than to type what I typed earlier.  I will tackle the issue, Topp.



[White "Zaichuk,Vitaliy"]
[Black "Wong,Victor"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E74"]

1.c4 Nf6
2.d4 g6
3.Nc3 Bg7
4.e4 d6
5.Be2 c5
6.d5 0-0
7.Bg5 h6
8.Bf4 e6
9.dxe6 Bxe6
10.Qd2 Qa5
11.Bxh6 Bxh6
12.Qxh6 Nxe4
13.Rc1 Re8!
14.h4 Nxc3
15.Rxc3 Qxa2
16.Qc1 Qa5
17.h5 Nc6??
18.Kf1 Qc7
19.Rg3

1-0

Black made a costly mistake there but the fact, the truth is White has absolutely nothing here after the accurate:

17...  Nd7!
18. hxg6

**OR with the similar idea as the game mentioned above--

[Variation here
18. Kf1 Ne5
19. hxg6
(19. f4 Nc6 20. hxg6 fxg6 21. Rg3 Bf5 22. Bd3 Bxd3+
23. Rxd3 Nd4 24. Rdh3 Kg7 25. Nf3 Rh8 26. b4 Qa2!! 27. Nxd4 cxd4 28. f5 Raf8 29. Rxh8 Rxf5+ 30. Kg1 Qf2+) 19...   Nxg6
20. Rg3 Kg7
21. Qh6+ Kf6
22. f4 Bxc4
23. Rxg6+ 

[[23.Bd7 [23.Nh3 Re7 24.Ng5 (24.Nf2 Rae8 25.Nxe4 Rxe4 26.Kf2 Rd4) 24...Rae8 25.Bf3 Bd3+] 23...Re7 24.f5 Ne5 25.Be6+ Rxe6 26.fxe6 Nd3 27.Qc3 Qxc3 28.bxc3 Re8 29.Nf3 Rxe6 Black is OK here.]]

23....   fxg6
24. Qg5+ Kg7]**

Now with the main line
18...     fxg6
19. Rh4

[19.Qh6 Qa1+]

19...    Kg7
20. Qh6+  Kf7
21. Nf3   Qa1+
22. Bd1   Bf5+
23. Re3   Rxe3+
24. fxe3  Re8
25. e4    Ne5

Split the point, shake hands and go grab a bite.

  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #18 - 09/03/05 at 08:35:00
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Toppy,

BladezII doesn't see the transposition that would occur after 11.Bh6.  That's his problem, not yours.  

In fact, the line he gives as "A" is the same position.  But be that as it may, your games are irrelevant.

Remember, as BladezII said, Quote:
The important fact is that at the position in question  Black took a different course, regardless of the previous moves.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #17 - 09/03/05 at 02:33:45
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TopNotch, there is a real problem with everything you wrote I am trying to use but I dont see where it is applicable to what I am championing for Black.  Let me illustrate what I mean:

1.  Look closely at the move order and you will see that you are out of the ball park same sport but not in this game.  

1. d4 Nf6  
2. c4 g6  
3. Nc3 Bg7  
4. e4 d6  
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5  
7. d5 h6  this precisely

8. Bf4 Qa5  this precisely

9. Qd2      e5  
10. dxe6   Bxe6  
11. Bxd6  

now let me quote you: "The problem for black in the above line is not 11.Bxd6 but rather 11.Qd2!" My friend, this is simply not possible not in this game.  The Queen is already on d2.  So your 11.Qd2 ! (??) idea is really out the window since it is not allowed.  And I only included Bxd6 as a possibility and I am not saying it is the crucial problem for Black (if there is one at all).

2.  Since I  want to make it clear that I recommend a precise move order and I have made that point clear to smyslov-fan, and I really know what I am talking about here, I am afraid that your games feature a move order which is different and of significance.  On both games you have this:

1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 c5 6.d5 0-0 7.Bg5 h6 8.Bf4 e6 (this move is not same and it is not what I am championing here at all)

If you read above, you will see I wrote "8. Bf4 Qa5  this precisely".

Thanks for your comments and the games you used for your comments but they are not about my subject.  I have to deem them irrelevant in the first case due to an impossibility you overlooked (?).  In the second case since I feel you overlooked (no question here) Black's Qa5 after White's Bf4.

  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #16 - 09/02/05 at 20:32:42
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Thx for the games, Toppy!
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #15 - 09/02/05 at 19:26:16
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Quote:
The problem with the Averbakh system is 6... c5.  This is the most critical continuation, immediately attacking the center.

White normally replies 7.d5 or the less popular 7.dxe5.


after 7.d5

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9. Qd2 e5
10. dxe6 ...

OR

A.  10. Bxh6 Bxh6 11. Qxh6 Nxe4  White may have some problems.  At the very very least Black is no longer playing to equalize.

B. 10. Be3 a6 11. f3 Kh7 12. h4 {There are no more active attempts here.} Nh5
Black's position is the more promising: he has forestalled his opponent's play on the kingside, and is ready for action on the queenside, where White might be planning to evacuate his king.

10...  Bxe6
11. Bxd6 Rd8
12. e5 Ne8

Black is better developed and
the regaining of the pawn is merely a matter of time.



The problem for black in the above line is not 11.Bxd6 but rather 11.Qd2!. Witness the following illustrative games, which are important for the theory of this line:

[Event "Palma de Mallorca Interzonal"]
[Site "Palma de Mallorca"]
[Date "1970.11.09"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Uhlmann,Wolfgang"]
[Black "Ujtumen,Tudev"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E74"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 h6 7.Be3 c5 8.d5 e6 9.dxe6 Bxe6 10.Qd2 Qa5 11.Bxh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Nxe4 13.Rc1 Nc6 14.h4 Nd4 15.Kf1 Nf5 16.Qf4 Nxc3 17.Rxc3 Qxa2 18.Qc1 Qa5 19.h5 Ng7 20.Rg3 Bf5 21.hxg6 fxg6 22.Bf3 Rae8 23.Bd5+ Ne6 24.Nf3 Kg7 25.Kg1 Rh8 26.Rxh8 Rxh8 27.b4 Qxb4 28.Bxe6 Qb1 29.Qxb1 Bxb1 30.Ng5 Rb8 31.Rf3 Bf5 32.Bxf5 gxf5 33.Rxf5 b5 34.cxb5 Rxb5 35.Ne4 Rb1+ 36.Kh2 Rd1 37.Rf3 Rd4 38.Ng3 Rd5 39.Ra3 c4 40.Rxa7+ Kg6 41.Rc7 Rc5 42.Rxc5 dxc5 43.Ne4  1-0

[Event "Bundesliga 9900"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "1999.10.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Kachiani Gersinska,Ketino"]
[Black "Uhlmann,Wolfgang"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E74"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 8.Bf4 e6 9.dxe6 Bxe6 10.Qd2 Qa5 11.Bxh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Nxe4 13.Rc1 Nc6 14.h4 Nd4 15.Kf1 Nf5 16.Qf4 Nxc3 17.Rxc3 Qb4 18.Qc1 Kg7 19.h5 Rh8 20.Nf3 Qa5 21.Ng5 Rae8 22.Rch3 Nd4 23.Nxe6+ Rxe6 24.Bg4 f5
25.hxg6 Rxh3 26.Rxh3 fxg4 27.Qh6+ Kf6 28.Qf8+ Kg5 29.f4+ gxf3 30.Rg3+ Kh4 31.Qf4+  1-0

[Event "CP.2001.P.00015"]
[Site "IECG email"]
[Date "2001.10.01"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Zaichuk,Vitaliy"]
[Black "Wong,Victor"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E74"]
1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 c5 6.d5 0-0 7.Bg5 h6 8.Bf4 e6 9.dxe6 Bxe6 10.Qd2 Qa5 11.Bxh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Nxe4 13.Rc1 Re8 14.h4 Nxc3 15.Rxc3 Qxa2 16.Qc1 Qa5 17.h5 Nc6 18.Kf1 Qc7 19.Rg3  1-0

Notice how GM Uhlmann a reknowned KID expert in his own right, after winning with White way back in 1970 decided to later switch sides in 1999, no doubt with an improvement in mind, but still failed to rehabilitate the line for black.

Toppy Grin                                                            
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #14 - 09/02/05 at 15:13:09
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@BladezII,

If you don't have access to Kasparov's own detailed notes please let me know.  I don't really feel like practicing my typing skills by copying his analysis, but if that's the only way for you to read it, I'll find time (after this long weekend).
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #13 - 09/01/05 at 20:10:41
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You know, I could have initiated my topic with a simple note which suggested for you to look up some references, which I do have, really.  I opted to show concrete lines BUT very very specific to a certain line I am championing.  That's is how  it will continue.  That is my way.  I  have a very strong opinion about the Saemisch Be3 c5 line and I have posted about it in the "Sämisch 6.Be3 c5 (11.Bf2!) " board.  I was very straight forward and I backed everything with cold hard lines.

  Lights.... camera....  ACTION !!
« Last Edit: 09/01/05 at 21:16:51 by BladezII »  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #12 - 08/28/05 at 11:55:02
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@BladezII

Proof, such as it is, will be difficult for anyone to accept without being open to his or her idea being challenged.  There are three ways of showing you the errors of your ways.  

The first is to go down the line you chose and trying to prove to you that your analysis is wrong.  That's the last alternative I would take in this situation because experience has shown me that whatever I say about your line will be replied by, "but what about this? types of comments, until the Day of Rapture.

The second way is to guide you to an authority who has discussed this and let you go through his analysis.  This isn't the "argument by authority" logical fallacy, rather it is sending you to an authority's deeper analysis to check it against yours.  I will do this by suggesting you look at Kasparov's notes to the game Najdorf-Fischer in My Great Predecessors, vol IV:  Fischer (2004) pp. 136-137 in which he analyses your move order and concludes that "Black again failed to equalise completely, which in the end reduced the popularity of the entire variation with 6...c5."

I doubt that will convince you, and the third way won't convince you either, but it does hold some sway.  The ChessBase stats on your line show that White is dominating and that Black has indeed been playing it less frequently in recent years at higher levels (2350+), supporting Kasparov's comment.  I really doubt anything I said will change your mind, but if it does, let me know what worked! Wink
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #11 - 08/27/05 at 18:51:19
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I am making a mistake of claiming this line is not a problem for Black?  Do you have the proof?  If you have the proof that this is a problem for Black, there is no need for you to analyze my line since whatever you know must be the holy grail.   Shocked

OK, seriously.  I have been showing my reasons with concrete variations.  I am not merely throwing empty statements around.  Remember that what I was interested in was the position.  So when I search for the position, that was the exact same one that came up, the Kasparov game.  The important fact is that at the position in question  Black took a different course, regardless of the previous moves.  So, isolation the position and analyzing it is critical to assess it correctly and that overshadows the significance of the moves taken to reach it.  The line is important to reach a desired position, no doubt. 

Thank you for noticing that ...h6 does have independent value and this whole line I advocate for Black is really the problem for White.  I really don't believe there is any problem for Black in the line Bg5.  My lines speak louder than my other words.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #10 - 08/23/05 at 16:17:59
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@BladezII,

First of all, I admit that my sardonic attack on you was not warranted.  I'm sorry.

You still make the same mistake of claiming that this single variation will undermine White's Bg5.  You made the same mistake in evaluating the Saemisch in another thread.  While I admit that your move order does indeed have some independent significance, you conveniently forgot that when you misrepresented the Ehlvest-Kasparov game's move order.  Ehlvest played Nf3 much earlier than you showed.  I will have to go back and analyse your interesting line later, but for now, I still believe in White's game after 6.Bg5.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #9 - 08/23/05 at 04:21:41
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Quote:
Ummm,

The "Averbakh without Bg5" isn't an Averbakh anymore.  If you play Be2 before Nf3 in this line, it's usually called the Modern Variation.  At least that's the name I learned for it.

I don't really see the point of 6.g4 here.  Is there some sort of rush to ruin White's kingside before Black has committed to any specific plan of development?  Do you really hope a pawn storm will work in this position?  I guess I don't see 6.g4 as being particularly wild or good yet.  Do you have any games or analysis to back it up?

If you're looking for a pawn storm, there's an idea in the Averbakh that goes something like:  6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.h4.  I have won numerous games with this idea, and called it the "Can-opener" because the h-pawn rips open the Black king.  I found out much later that Tigran Petrosian actually tried this idea a couple of times, so maybe it's actually good.


Actually Shredder calls it Averbach even if one dont play Bg5. I have played real Averbach (ie. 6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.h4 etc.) and I´m relatively happy with the results but I want to try something "new". Also, I think Averback with c5 + e6 does not give any attacking changes for white Sad
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #8 - 08/22/05 at 22:47:58
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I suggested something and expressed the ideas with some variations... NOT with a postcard from Disney.
Here I go again.  Let me make it really clear that I insist on move accuracy.  I have some reasons as to why ...h6 instead of ...e6 first.  If you want to discuss this with me, let me pick the move oder I want for Black; dont pick for me.  I know what I am talking about, and I politely ask you to respect that.

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6  and NOT ... e6

8. Bh4 instead of Bf4, as I used in my last post.

8...     a6
9. Nf3 b5
10. Qc2

A) 10. cxb5 axb5 11. Bxb5 Nxe4 White is in trouble)

B) 10. Nd2 b4 11. Na4 Nh7 12. O-O Nd7 13. Qc2 g5 14. Bg3 Ne5 and White had to think of how to equalize.
Ehlvest-Kasparov 1995 --a year AFTER the game Kramnik--Kasparov.  Looks like the Kramnik - Kasparov 1994 game which you used to make your case was NOT the final word.   8)

10...      bxc4
11. Nd2 Nbd7
12. Nxc4 Nb6
13. Bxf6 Bxf6

Black is comfortable and has an excellent game.


  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #7 - 08/22/05 at 21:06:33
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@BladezII

Wow, you've just solved the entire KID 6.Bg5 system!  Are you on the way to Disneyland yet? Wink


Okay, seriously...

(Disclaimer:  I no longer play the Averbakh system, but I still believe in it.)

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6is the starting point, not the ending point of the main line of the Averbakh!  7...h6 is mostly just a transpositional tool.  Let's see some well-known lines to illustrate this.

8.de6? really is just equal after either 8...Be6 or fe6.  One interesting game to look up in each variation is:  Evans-Gligorich, 1957 and Bobolvich-Roshal 1957 respectively.  

So now that we have the trash out of the way, let's look at more reasonable play for White.  Remember, this is just a sampling of play, and isn't encylcopaedic.  (BTW, I am using several sources for my information, not least of which is ECO E75 1991 by Polugaevsky.)  

I.  8.Nf3!? h6 (exchanging on d5 is considered to be bad for Black here.  A neat theory that backs this up is that tension (created when either side can make an exchange of material) in chess is good, and whoever breaks it usually loses something in the process.  Moral:  break the tension only when you are sure there's a good reason.) 9. Bh4!? 9.Bf4 is probably not best whether your idea is sound or not, and Polugaevsky analyses 9.Bd2 to what he considers to be equality in ECO, but it's not very clear.

Nunn, in The Main Line King's Indian(1996)gives the following line (with lots of side variations):


9....g5 10.Bg3 Nh5!? 11.h4 (Keres' move.  By the way, we've transposed into the Petrosian System with 8.Nf3.  11.Nd2 is also possible, and Black still has a lot of work to do to prove that is only equal.) 11...g4 12.Nh2!? Ng3 13.fg3 h5 14.0-0 f5 15.ef5 or 15.Rf5! The exclam belongs to Kramnik. 15.ef5 follows Kramnik-Kasparov 1994 which gave White a big plus.  There are lots of segues to discuss, but I doubt we'll solve it all here.  If we do, then frabjous day! 8)
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #6 - 08/22/05 at 19:46:06
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The problem with the Averbakh system is 6... c5.  This is the most critical continuation, immediately attacking the center.

White normally replies 7.d5 or the less popular 7.dxe5.

after 7.d5

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. Be2 O-O
6. Bg5 c5
7. d5 h6
8. Bf4 Qa5
9. Qd2 e5
10. dxe6 ...

OR

A.  10. Bxh6 Bxh6 11. Qxh6 Nxe4  White may have some problems.  At the very very least Black is no longer playing to equalize.

B. 10. Be3 a6 11. f3 Kh7 12. h4 {There are no more active attempts here.} Nh5
Black's position is the more promising: he has forestalled his opponent's play on the kingside, and is ready for action on the queenside, where White might be planning to evacuate his king.

10...  Bxe6
11. Bxd6 Rd8
12. e5 Ne8

Black is better developed and
the regaining of the pawn is merely a matter of time.

  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #5 - 08/22/05 at 12:11:41
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Alumbrado,

I agree completely that White plays g4 in several important variations of the KID.  I just don't see what White has to gain by playing it so early.  As you pointed out, White usually plays it to stop the "wild" play of ...f5, and only then to look for some sort of king-side play on his own.  I agree that the other moves (especially 5.Nf3) make more sense until Black has committed ...e5.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #4 - 08/22/05 at 10:44:45
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This is an idea which deserves to be taken a bit more seriously.  The g2-g4 thrust is common in the King's Indian, after all, including in the main lines of the Averbakh.  The thing is not to look at it as part of a direct kingside attack: the idea is to clamp down on ...f5 and if black plays it anyway, to take off twice and then try and plant something, preferably a knight, on e4.

If you want to play a system with g2-g4, then the lines with 5.h3 or 5.Nf3 and 6.h3 are probably better, delaying g2-g4 until Black has committed to ...e5 and it looks as if he might be ready to play ...f5 some time soon.  That way the Bf1 gets to keep is options open - it can go to g2 or d3 for extra control over the crucial e4 square, for example.
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #3 - 08/22/05 at 10:28:18
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yep! I agree with Smyslov. W/o Bg5 there is no Averbach.

@Smyslov-fan. Just maybe It was from trying out that 'can opener' thing that Tigran got some ideas for his own System?? Cos after black starts chasing W's dark bishop with h6, g5, & Nh5 white responds with h4!?  Black's f5 break is blunted and  the g5 pawn is somewhat weakened.  So h4 here would be even more potent. What do you think??
  

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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #2 - 08/22/05 at 02:15:06
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Ummm,

The "Averbakh without Bg5" isn't an Averbakh anymore.  If you play Be2 before Nf3 in this line, it's usually called the Modern Variation.  At least that's the name I learned for it.

I don't really see the point of 6.g4 here.  Is there some sort of rush to ruin White's kingside before Black has committed to any specific plan of development?  Do you really hope a pawn storm will work in this position?  I guess I don't see 6.g4 as being particularly wild or good yet.  Do you have any games or analysis to back it up?

If you're looking for a pawn storm, there's an idea in the Averbakh that goes something like:  6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.h4.  I have won numerous games with this idea, and called it the "Can-opener" because the h-pawn rips open the Black king.  I found out much later that Tigran Petrosian actually tried this idea a couple of times, so maybe it's actually good.
  
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Re: Averbakh without Bg5...??
Reply #1 - 08/21/05 at 21:05:29
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I think White has lost a tempo compared to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.g4.
  

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Averbakh without Bg5...??
08/21/05 at 14:16:29
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Hi dudes,
What you think about this wild line:

d4 Nf6
c4 g6
Nc3 Bg7
e4 d6
Be2 O-O
g4!?

  
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