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Normal Topic C11: 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 (Read 2620 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Classical 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0
Reply #6 - 09/01/05 at 07:27:20
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Neat ideas Brabo! 

I'm gonna have to take a look at both of those, and soon because I'm playing this weekend in the state championship.  I take the Black side and have faced both lines you mentioned, but not recently.
  
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Brabo
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Re: Classical 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0
Reply #5 - 09/01/05 at 03:53:26
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Quote:
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 cxd4 8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O a6 11. h4 Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5  13.Rh3 b4
14.Na4 Bxd4 15.Qxd4 Qa5 16.b3 Bb7 17.c3! Rfc8 18.Kb2 bxc3 19.Rxc3 Rxc3 20.Qxc3 Qxc3 (20...Qd8!? 21.Rc1 Foragasi-Bricard,2001)

This was basically the position I was referring to when I started this thread.  It seems like in most opening books, this line is given as (slight) advantage to white, but if you put it into any of the engines, the evaluation is quite opposite.

So the question is, is this the best white can do against this variation in the steinz variation?  If so I'd probably take black...


I played 11. h4 for years and gave it up last year due to the line you are mentioning. Now I'm playing the modern approach introduced by Kramnik 11. Qf2 in which it is more difficulty for black to achieve equalty. B.t.w. if you want something different and still very interesting to play then you need to try out 11. Nb3 which is a strange idea of Nijboer.
  
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Re: Classical 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0
Reply #4 - 08/30/05 at 12:18:12
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I take Black anyway.

Psakhis gives 13.Rh3 as the main line.  He says that 13.Bc5 Nc5 14.Qd4 Qc7 brings "White no dividends" and cites A.Ivanov-Glek (1987) Apicella-Gurevich (2001) to support his claim.  "Gurevich" is almost certainly Mikhail.  He continues, "Black can also feel confident in the event of 13 h5"in which he gives almost a full page of analysis and quotes from at least seven games, including Topalov-Morozevich, Sarajevo 1999.  This is all in his French Defence:  Steinitz, Classical and Other Systems (2004) pp.83-96 (quotes on pp92-93).
  
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partytrain
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Re: Classical 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0
Reply #3 - 08/30/05 at 11:28:17
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1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 cxd4 8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O a6 11. h4 Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5  13.Rh3 b4
14.Na4 Bxd4 15.Qxd4 Qa5 16.b3 Bb7 17.c3! Rfc8 18.Kb2 bxc3 19.Rxc3 Rxc3 20.Qxc3 Qxc3 (20...Qd8!? 21.Rc1 Foragasi-Bricard,2001)

This was basically the position I was referring to when I started this thread.  It seems like in most opening books, this line is given as (slight) advantage to white, but if you put it into any of the engines, the evaluation is quite opposite.

So the question is, is this the best white can do against this variation in the steinz variation?  If so I'd probably take black...
  
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dom
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Re: Classical 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0
Reply #2 - 08/27/05 at 04:04:09
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I have recorded only one critical game in the variation and White must give credit to Nijboer for this:
13...b4 14.Na4 Bxd4 (or 14...Qa5!? with the same idea) 15.Qxd4 Qa5! 16.b3 Bb7 17.c3!  (Nijboer's idea. Nijboer-Luther,Leeuwarden 1992) Rfc8 18.Kb2 bxc3 19.Rxc3 Rxc3 20.Qxc3 Qxc3 (20...Qd8!? 21.Rc1 Foragasi-Bricard,2001) 21.Nxc3  and little advantage to White, but I admit: it's not so clear.

After 17..Rac8, Hagen Tiemann gives advantage to White: Bangiev-Sawtaski,Allemagne 1996

If White looses one tempo with Kb1, b4 is more useful for Black. If b4 is not played quickly then White has enough time for his attack. 13...Bb7!? 14.Rg3! (14.Kb1 b4 15.Ne2 a5 16.h5!) b4 (14...Bxd4 15.Qxd4 Qxh4 unclear or 15..f6)  15.Na4 Bxd4 16.Qxd4 Qa5 b3 17.b3 Bc6 18.f5!? (Watson and Pedersen)
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Classical 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0
Reply #1 - 08/27/05 at 00:44:04
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(FYI:  The Steinitz Variation (4.e5) that you quote here is usually considered to be separate from the Classical (4.Bg5)

Good question on an important line.  I'll try to get back to you on this after this weekend.  (Maybe sooner if it pops up in one of my games!)
  
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partytrain
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C11: 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0
08/26/05 at 23:48:18
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1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 cxd4 8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O a6 11. h4 Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5

13.  

After 13.Rh3 (NCO) b4 no matter where the knight moves(either e2 or a4), Fritz 8 gives advantage, or equal chances to black.  Is this still considered the best move in the position?

If you let fritz 8 calculate for 20 or so minutes, it gives h5 as number 1, although close to other moves.  Anyone agree that Rh3 is not the best move?
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 16:25:30 by dom »  
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