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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored (Read 11511 times)
emoskow(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #28 - 02/28/06 at 17:18:54
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000 d5 ed nd5 bd4 e5 bc5 be6 ne4 rb8 see martins very good look
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #27 - 02/28/06 at 14:04:11
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Very nice Mr Moscow ! can you give the first move of this Rb8, Qe7 line ? Thanks
  
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emoskow(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #26 - 02/28/06 at 06:37:37
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ok ill take that chaleenge, first of all I think that the reply to 000 depends on who is playing black and who black is playing. Meaning if black is say 2200 playing a 2200 player than bd4, is probably ok, the ending is fairly close, technigue is critical for white and blacks plans are fairly clear.  iif black is 2400 and wite is 2500 plus than forget bd4 u will gwet ground down, bd7 offers a sluggers chance in most lines if u get the ideas and poetential playing some bc4 systems down time does not concernu, d5 looking at  martins and wards qe7 in the rb8 line is ok, early re8 is blacks best i still contend offering black chances if white qavoids the kruppa tivikov ending which is equal, this is my view of current affairs but im just one voice
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #25 - 02/28/06 at 05:36:25
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Sacapawn: Yes, I think the the two options that I mentioned are improvements over lines Black has played more frequently in the past, such as the one mentioned by Paris.

Paris: I think that these lines are fairly solid, and easy to play, which is why I switched. Personally, I am not as convinced by Black's other options against 9.0-0-0. Non-9...d5 ideas are stuggling a bit; 9...Nxd4 has been refuted and revived a couple of times now. I got tired of this, and some of the patches did not seem fun to play. Playing (in the d5 mainline) 12...e5 is perhaps more enterprising than 12...Bxd4, but there are certainly more risks. Black's piece play is somewhat lacking, and it wouldn't surprise me to see the theory shift on some of these lines significantly; Black's task is not trivial.

Moskow-Martinez: This line features 12...Nxc3, which I think is just a mistake. This game is just one more nail in the coffin as far as I am concerned.

Edit: Here is a link to the old thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1078502585/ which doesn't deal with the Qb6-a5-c7 idea, but does show Qc7 directly, and so is probably worth a look for anyone interested in these lines.
  
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emoskow(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #24 - 02/28/06 at 03:46:44
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please see moskow martinez for a good version for white, the b file attack has no steam, blacks pawns are a wreck and the major pieces go, thus black is left with a lousy ending, fighting for piece play which never comes, its just bads
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #23 - 02/27/06 at 22:28:55
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Thanks mr Moscow for your fine psychologic point ! anyway Bxd4 with Qa5 + Q7 is very close to equality. What is your suggestion against 9.000
  
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emoskow(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #22 - 02/27/06 at 13:53:45
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listen, dragon players like me tend to be weaker than our opponents in most cases at a high level, the dragon is a great equalizer in fact many high opponents avoid it so as to play weak anti sicilian lines see my win over im blas lugo this year, and kveinys 2570 avoiding e4 altogether just to get a rotten position, so do not play these stale bd4 lines see my winwith white against marcel martinez fide 2470 , please note im weak and i have great results when people avoid my stuff. if people thought i would play an inferior or even equal ending they would play this and beat me most games, the fun is in the sharp stuff keep looking answers are there, my becerra game is just one of many things i have,you can find them too, my resutls are improving if a weak master can get multiple im and gm scalp-s u can too also my near win draw result with defermian gm 2555 is another recent scalp in a critical last rd game for him keep the faith
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #21 - 02/27/06 at 10:36:39
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After 14.Na4 Qa5 15.b3 Bf5 16.Q5 QxQ 17.NxQ N3 18.Re1 Nxa2+ 19.Kb2 Nb4 20.B4! Re8 21.g4 "here we play for two results 1-0 or 1/2" Golubev in experts vs the sicilian

After 14.Na4 Qa5 15.b3 Q7 16.B4 Rd8 for exemple 17.Rd2 Bf5 18.Rhd1 Rb8 19.a3 white advantage is small i agree. 15.--- Q7 is not analysed by Golubev and maybe better than 15.--- Bf5

  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #20 - 02/27/06 at 01:34:07
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After 15.Qxb6 Black has easy equality. This is all that I can ask for with Black. Frankly, there is enough in the position to outplay a weaker player, considering the number of lines in the dragon that end with perpetual check.

14.Na4 Qa5 15.b3 Qc7 16.Bc4 Rd8 -- I really don't see how this is better for White.

14.Na4 Qa5 15.b3 Bf5 is the continuation seen most in practice. It seems a little unsteady to me, but I haven't really thought hard about it.

You might try searching through the old threads, there is some discussion of similar lines (with, e.g. 14...Qc7), but not much with the idea of playing Qa5 to provoke b3 first.
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #19 - 02/26/06 at 21:46:58
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[first after 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Nxd5 xN 15.QxQb6 black cannot win even against a weacker player
and if 14.Na4 Qa5 15.b3 Q7 16.B4 seems a little better for white
maybe 15.b3 Bf5  is near equality any GM thoughts about this position ? 16.quote author=Scholar link=1125873374/15#15 date=1140835752]I think that Black is fine as well. This line has been mentioned a couple of times here, but not with any real analysis (beyond what you posted). For whatever reason, most of the Black players here prefer not to play 12...Bxd4, even though to my eyes, it is more sound. [/quote]
  
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Sacapawn
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #18 - 02/26/06 at 21:18:02
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I don't see how that GM Ward quote with another line than in this thread is relevant here.

Has he recommended the 12.-,Bxd4 line in some update? If so, which one?
  
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BladezII
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #17 - 02/26/06 at 18:01:52
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Yes, there is reason to not take that statement as a fact or as the absolute truth. 

From GM Chris Ward--

"Regular subscribers will recall my annotations to Parligras,M-Cebalo,M (9th HIT Open Nova Gorica SLO 2004) which was prompted by much debate about the now very topical line 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 g6 6 Be3 Bg7 7 f3 0-0 8 Qd2 Nc6 9 0-0-0 Nxd4 10 Bxd4 Be6 11 Kb1 Qc7 12 h4 Rfc8 13 h5 Qa5 14 hxg6 hxg6 15 a3 Rab8 16 Bd3 Bc4 on the Dragon forum. Golubev's writing is very honest and so much so that it appears that he doesn't actually prove a significant advantage here and indeed a lot of Black's defences are based on his own recommendations for the second player! Mikhail's section is worth the admission price on its own although having read through most of it I will say that Dragon players don't need to panic just yet!"

Also, Dragon  subscribers will look at Wards recommendation in his section of chesspublishing.com.

Angry
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
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Sacapawn
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #16 - 02/26/06 at 17:21:23
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Both in Golubev's section in "Experts vs. the Sicilian" from 2004 and ECO B from 2002 there are games showing that White gets some edge after 12.-,Bxd4. Is there any reason to re-evaluate this?
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #15 - 02/25/06 at 02:49:12
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I think that Black is fine as well.  This line has been mentioned a couple of times here, but not with any real analysis (beyond what you posted).  For whatever reason, most of the Black players here prefer not to play 12...Bxd4, even though to my eyes, it is more sound.
  
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I need to know(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #14 - 02/24/06 at 23:12:12
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1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6

Concerning the follow-up to 12Bxd4 in the line being discussed, one commenter suggested that 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 is perhaps equal but not easy for black and another one said the defense is painful. But why? Material is equal, black has a nice open b-file for an attack against whites king, and whites knight is off to the side on a4 not doing much of anything important. In fact, after 14Qa5, if white plays 15.b3, then 15Qc7 threatens all kinds of bad thingslike shooting a pawn to e5. Black will also soon play Rd8 and/or Be6. So, whats the difficult and painful problem here for black? It seems like the problem could be for white, not black.
  
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