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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7 (Read 5926 times)
tafl
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #13 - 09/06/05 at 08:48:15
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Thanks, guys!

This has been enlightening. I was aware that the difference had to be rather marginal. But so far I have learned:
1) The critical line after 5...b5 6.Bb3 Be7 must be 7.d4, which may not be a big problem after 7...d6. But Black should not take on d4, as that is distinctly worse than the standard Central Attack.
2) 5...b5 6.Bb3 d6!? is another way to the Closed, as 7.Ng5 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 is easier for Black than the similar Fritz/Ulvestad lines in the Two Knight's Defence.
3) I understand why Black play 8...c5 after 5...Be7 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.d3 Nd7 8.b3.
  

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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #12 - 09/06/05 at 07:25:52
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Welcome, Cresspahl!

You make a valid point. 

Willempie, ya know, I never really thought much about how White responds to the different moves (b5 vs Be7) but I know you're right.  Usually, regardless of the move, even at master levels, the opening is played at a rapid level and there seems to be a mutual agreement to include both ...b5 and Be7.  As someone mentioned earlier, almost all games transpose.  So perhaps we're worrying about the mote in our neighbor's eyes and forgetting about the planks in our own!
  
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Cresspahl
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #11 - 09/06/05 at 03:20:58
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Hello all,

this is my first post here with hopefully many to follow!

Referring to the theme of this thread I have to say that I also like to restrict White's possibilities by playing the 5...b5 6.Bb3 Be7 move order. I was never a Marshall afficionado, therefore I don't care about the more flexible move oder 5...Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0.

I've been toying around with the Closed Ruy Lopez since 2003 and had quite acceptable results with this move order against strong opposition (2200+).

Smiley Cresspahl

  
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Willempie
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #10 - 09/06/05 at 03:17:47
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Quote:
Willempie,

When I play the Spanish (which isn't very often anymore), I expect d4, and don't necessarily want to see White try one of those less topical and almost as dangerous lines starting with d3.  Besides, your move order means that White doesn't even have to think about the Marshall.  What fun is that? Cheesy

White can play with d3 in almost any variation, so I dont see your point. Besides white still has to take into account that black will play Bb7 before going into a standard closed.
Besides whatever moveorder you try as black to reach a closed Ruy chances are rather big that white will comply without blinking an eye. I know I dont and repertoire books with the Ruy (Khalifman and Emms) dont either.

As an aside the Marshall has never scared me, usually the people playing it get to play it once a year (against me) and duly have forgotten the theory. After all I am not playing GM level 8)
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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brabo
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #9 - 09/06/05 at 02:46:39
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Brabo,

Thanks for your considered remarks, they make good sense.  However, let's say that White isn't in any hurry to play c3, doesn't White just have a natural (but small) edge because of his more active pieces?


- Just replay some of the GM-games where black adopts the plan with Nd7-b8-c6 and you will see that whites advantage is evaporating very quickly. B.t.w. I'm sure if this Bc6: move would assure some small edge then much more games would be seen on top level which is not the case. You often see masters crushing amateurs with Bc6: but that is because the amateur doesn't know how to play this kind of positions and not due to the position itself.
  
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #8 - 09/06/05 at 02:03:34
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Brabo,

Thanks for your considered remarks, they make good sense.  However, let's say that White isn't in any hurry to play c3, doesn't White just have a natural (but small) edge because of his more active pieces?
  
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brabo
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #7 - 09/06/05 at 01:30:01
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It is my, admittedly somewhat eccentric, view that the Deferred Exchange with 6.Bxc6 is grossly under-rated, at least from a practical viewpoint as Black can easily end up with a passive position where he lacks an obvious plan.

For example after 6...dxc6 7.d3 Nd7 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.Nc4 f6, White can play for f2-f4 and to plant a knight on f5, whereas it is not easy (for me, at least) to see what, if any, active plan Black can undertake.


An active plan for black exists in c5 and playing the knight around via b8 to d4 with serious pressure on whites position. Keep in mind that c3 is not so easy because after retreating, black puts all its heavy pieces on the d-line with pressue on the backward pawn. If white does nothing then black can take space on the queenside with b5 and break with a well timed c4 the center. That is why it is important for white to play somewhere a4 and even a5.
  
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #6 - 09/05/05 at 22:52:37
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Willempie,

When I play the Spanish (which isn't very often anymore), I expect d4, and don't necessarily want to see White try one of those less topical and almost as dangerous lines starting with d3.  Besides, your move order means that White doesn't even have to think about the Marshall.  What fun is that? Cheesy
  
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #5 - 09/05/05 at 13:44:39
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BtW a good alternative to reach the closed is also
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6 Bb3 d6
Now d4 is even less of a danger.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #4 - 09/05/05 at 11:27:23
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Aha! Another argument for the wonderful Steinitz Defence Deferred (stirring rapidly)!
  
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #3 - 09/05/05 at 09:36:02
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It is my, admittedly somewhat eccentric, view that the Deferred Exchange with 6.Bxc6 is grossly under-rated, at least from a practical viewpoint as Black can easily end up with a passive position where he lacks an obvious plan.

For example after 6...dxc6 7.d3 Nd7 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.Nc4 f6, White can play for f2-f4 and to plant a knight on f5, whereas it is not easy (for me, at least) to see what, if any, active plan Black can undertake.
  

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brabo
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #2 - 09/05/05 at 08:32:00
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Both moveorders are playable and in 99% of the cases the same mainline is achieved. Nevertheless there are a couple of nuances.
1. e4, e5 2. Nf3, Nc6 3. Bb5, a6 4. Ba4, Nf6 5. 0-0,

A) 5.., b5 6. Bb3, Be7 7. d4 (At my opinion the major sideline and this has been played by numerous grandmasters i.s.o. the normal 7. Re1) and now
7..., d6 (7..., ed4: is risky due to 8. e5 while on 7.., Nd4: there can follow 8. Bf7+Smiley 8. c3, 0-0 (Bg4!?) 9. h3 (If white wants something else then he should try Re1 or Nbd2) Black has now to choose which mainline he wants to play. It is very likely that white will return to standard theory with 10. Re1 because 10. d5 or other moves are less critical.

B) 5..., Be7 6. Bc6: (Many experts consider this exchange as less critical than the mainline with 6. Re1 so an infinite small error. This doesn't mean that play is that easy for black but in general if black knows some critical lines by heart then he shouldn't suffer that much.)
One example from my own practice...
[Event "EU/M/1234"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Anderson, John"]
[Black "Brabo"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C85"]
[PlyCount "84"]
[EventDate "2000.??.??"]
[SourceDate "2001.12.02"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. Nc3 Bg4 8.
h3 Bh5 9. g4 Bg6 10. Nxe5 Nxe4 11. Re1 Nxc3 12. bxc3 O-O 13. Rb1 Bd6 14. Rxb7
Qh4 15. d3 f5 16. Bf4 fxg4 17. Bg3 Qxh3 18. Qxg4 Qxg4 19. Nxg4 Rf5 20. Ne5 Re8
21. d4 Bf7 22. a4 Bd5 23. Reb1 Rh5 24. Kf1 Rh1+ 25. Ke2 Rxb1 26. Rxb1 c5 27.
Kd3 h5 28. f4 c4+ 29. Kd2 Be7 30. Re1 Bd8 31. Bh2 g5 32. fxg5 Bxg5+ 33. Ke2 Re7
34. Rg1 Rg7 35. Nf3 Bd8 36. Rxg7+ Kxg7 37. Ne5 Kf6 38. Nd7+ Kf5 39. a5 c6 40.
Nc5 Bxa5 41. Nxa6 Bxc3 42. Be5 Be4 0-1

So what is best? I think it is more a matter of psychology and part of a preparation than a real problem. On both moveorders I choose with white for the most natural mainline with Re1 although for rapid and speed chess I sometimes change to see if my opponent knows the little sidevariations too.
  
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Re: Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
Reply #1 - 09/05/05 at 04:57:20
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Afaik there is no disadvantage (I have played against that move-order on occasion). There would be if 7 d4 was a real option, but that is not very good (unlike the similar position from the TKD).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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tafl
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Closed Ruy Lopez 5...b5 or 5...Be7
09/05/05 at 04:23:06
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I am still struggling with the basics of the Closed Ruy Lopez.

I have always believed 5...Be7 to be the normal way to reach the CRL. But after reviewing the current state of theory, I am slightly annoyed by 6.Bxc6, which has been played by some pretty strong players. So, I started wondering about the move-order 5...b5 6.Bb3 Be7!? (6...Bb7 and 6...Bc5 seem to be very popular, but possibly on the decline).

I found that a lot of strong players have been using the 5...b5, 6...Be7 move-order lately, and cannot really see any draw-backs to it. Most white's seem to prefer 7.Re1, transposing back to standard lines, or 7.Qe2, transposing to a Worrall-attack fully acceptable for Black. The only other moves seem to be 7.c3 (pointless?), and 7.d4 (which seems to be a fully OK version for Black of the Central Attack) and 7.a4!? (is this really the critical test?).

Am I missing something here?
  

A computer once beat me at chess but it was no match for me at kick boxing - Emo Philips
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