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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00: A gambit on move 3! (Read 27380 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #48 - 03/14/10 at 02:02:52
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And this also deals with 3.Be3.  There are probably other threads that also analyse 3.Be3 but these should suffice.
  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #47 - 03/03/09 at 09:21:07
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Because he knows the theory.
  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #46 - 03/03/09 at 03:43:08
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Maybe because even its biggest fan thinks it's dubious:

http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/doc/games/chess/ddg/

and especially here:

http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/doc/games/chess/ddg/Analysis/5-c5.html

Of course this fan still wins with his favourite gambit. Could you tell us why?
  

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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #45 - 03/03/09 at 03:24:28
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Why isn't the Diemer-Duhm Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 e6 3 c4, discussed here? All I am hearing about is the Alapin-Diemer Gambit!
  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #44 - 01/24/09 at 08:19:49
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flaviddude wrote on 01/23/09 at 05:18:51:

1) Lane - "Four Gambits to beat the French"

1) Tim Harding - "Four Gambits to beat the French"  - Chess Digest Ed.  Smiley
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #43 - 01/23/09 at 05:18:51
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Let me start off by stating that I have books that deal with this gambit 

1) Lane - "Four Gambits to beat the French" 

2) Tim Sawyer - "Alapin French Tactics for White"

I have played this gambit in both correspondence and over the board chess.

First I strongly believe that black should accept this gambit.

Declining the gambit tends to give black inferior positions.

For example 

1. d4 d5 2.e4 e6 (the move order that will often happen to Blackmar-Diemer gambit players.
3.Be3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd7 5.c3 and a position is reached where white has supported his centre with c3 and Be3 before black can put pressure on it. Black will have more trouble drumming up counterplay than in other lines of the French.

On the other hand in my opinion black is better after taking the pawn. 
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #42 - 01/17/09 at 16:58:18
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MNb wrote on 01/17/09 at 15:30:47:
That's good news for your future opponents. Those who are familiar with the stereotypal attacking plan don't even need a board to see where White went wrong: 8.Ne5?! should be replaced by 8.Qe1. As you don't intend to spend any more time on this line you are probably not interested in what I have found after 8.Qe1 c5. But I bet that several regular readers can predict White's few next moves within a few seconds. I certainly could; I checked them and I noticed a few problems for Black.


Hi MNb,

I didn't mean to imply that I had not already checked for improvements: I am familiar with the BDG line so had of course looked at 8 Qe1 both during the game and afterwards and ran the computer over it to see if there was anything drastically different.  I should have perhaps mentioned that in the original post.

During the game I didn't really see any serious issues with 8 Qe1 c5 9 Qh4 cxd4 10 Bg5 g6 (e.g. Qh6 Re8) which seems to prevent any immediate kills.  After 10 Bg5 we have a BDG position where white has swapped O-O for Nc3 where g6 is just good for black according to theory.  10 Ng5 h6 also seems ok.

The computer prefers 10 Bxd4 (which I didn't consider during the game) but also suggests that 10...h6 is fine and again I couldn't see anything immediate (11 Be3 Nd5).  I wouldn't say white has zero compensation here, but if there is nothing immediately dangerous then I'm happy just to play it out as I am familiar with the ideas.

  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #41 - 01/17/09 at 15:50:54
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From my head, isnt Qe1,Qh4 and if h6,something like Bh6 or even Nf7 supposed to be really dangerous for black?


f.e. 

8 Qe1 ! c5
9 Qh4 and if h6
10 Bh6 gh6
11 Qh6 really dangerous,white plays Ng5 next move ?

I play it safe with 3..Nf6  Smiley
  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #40 - 01/17/09 at 15:30:47
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That's good news for your future opponents. Those who are familiar with the stereotypal attacking plan don't even need a board to see where White went wrong: 8.Ne5?! should be replaced by 8.Qe1. As you don't intend to spend any more time on this line you are probably not interested in what I have found after 8.Qe1 c5. But I bet that several regular readers can predict White's few next moves within a few seconds. I certainly could; I checked them and I noticed a few problems for Black.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #39 - 01/17/09 at 13:59:41
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Just earlier today I in the national league I deviated from my normal Sicilian and faced:

1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Be3  So I figure I should contribute Smiley

I didn't know anything about it but since I always take the Morra and BDG pawn I decided that it couldn't be much worse.  The game continued:

3...dxe4 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 Nf6 6 Bd3 Be7 7 O-O O-O

reaching a position where if Nc3 is swapped with Be3 it is the BDG, which continues Bg5 etc.  In any case, I was here going to play 8...c5 almost regardless of what white played

8 Ne5 c5 9 c3 (9 dxc5 Qc7/Qd5) 9...cxd4 10 cxd4 Nc6! 11 Kh1!? (11 Nxc6 bxc6 is a c3 sicilian type position where white is missing his f2 pawn.  11 Ng4 Nxg4 12 Qxg4 f5 would have been nice) 11...Nxe5 12 dxe5 Nd7 (12...Nd5!? 13 Bd4 Nb4 14 Be4 Nc6 forcing more exchanges was simpler and much better for black, but I had missed a trick) 13 Bd4 (13 Bf4 Nc5)

I had been aiming for this position and here made a mistake with 13...Bc5?! (13... Nb8-c6 is the computers nice suggestion) missing that while 14 Bxh7+ Kxh7 15 Qh5+ Kg8 16 Rf4 Bxd4 17 Rh4 f6! is winning for black, white can instead play:

14 Bxh7+ Kxh7 15 Qc2+! Kg8 16 Bxc5 and here 16...Qc7 17 Rc1 Nxc5 18 Qxc5 Qxc5 19 Rxc5 Bd7 is only a little better for black but not a disaster for white.

Fortunately (for me) my opponent instead played 14 Bxh7+ Kxh7 15 Bxc5?? Nxc5 16 Qc2+ Qd3 0-1

So while I did indeed fall into a "trap" (that gave me slightly nicer ending) despite knowing nothing about the theory I reached a comfortably better position (and my opponent fell into a bigger trap).  I can't say I will spend any more time studying the line as a result. (my opponent was rated around 2000)
  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #38 - 01/12/09 at 02:23:20
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Dragonslayer wrote on 08/11/08 at 21:45:15:
Most of the time strong players will not take pawns like the BDG and the ADG because they count on winning later on, while not wanting to take the risk of entering a variation the amateur (i.e. me) has prepared and of which they know absolutely nothing because they have played it exactly zero times.
So I got a huge position after 3...Nf6? 4.e5 Nd7 5.f4 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Nf3. Any way you slice this White has the advantage...


As you would expect, Diemer frequently got this position, which he called "the ideal position against the French."
  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #37 - 08/11/08 at 22:41:28
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I think your evaluation of the position after 3...Nf6 is somewhat exaggerated, but true, White has an extra tempo on the interesting Tromp line 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. Bf4 d5 4. f3 Nf6 5. e4 e6 6. e5 Nfd7 7. Be3, which must be worth something.
  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #36 - 08/11/08 at 21:45:15
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I have played both moves and decided to quit 3.Be3.
However recently I was set to play IM Oliver Kurmann with White at the Copenhagen Open. Not wanting to see 25 moves of theory after 3.Nc3 Nf6 I went for 3.Be3 and guess what. He didn't take the pawn. Most of the time strong players will not take pawns like the BDG and the ADG because they count on winning later on, while not wanting to take the risk of entering a variation the amateur (i.e. me) has prepared and of which they know absolutely nothing because they have played it exactly zero times.
So I got a huge position after 3...Nf6? 4.e5 Nd7 5.f4 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Nf3. Any way you slice this White has the advantage and has the best of both world: advance with f4 in, Tarrasch with Be3 in or Steinitz with c3 iso Nc3. Yes Nb1 will have to find a different square (Nf3-g5 followed by Nb1-d2-f3 comes to mind) but that is a small price to for when you consider the troubles Black will have to find a square for his king. Queenside looks dangerous, the kingside is devoid of defenders and the centre is about to get attacked by g4, f5, Ng5 etc. In the game I got a huge position but played the wrong sacrifice and lost. Kurmann drew Eljanov (2716) the next round and made a GM norm, while I had a disastrous tournament. In a game between equal opponents (or maybe me playing White on a good day) the result would surely have been different.
  
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #35 - 08/11/08 at 01:07:34
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Neither have I. From the 100 times I meet the French I will play about 99 times 3.Nc3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: A gambit on move 3!
Reply #34 - 08/10/08 at 21:22:53
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Well, to quote another post, I certainly agree that 3 Be3 is playable and shouldn't lose, and don't doubt that White has practical chances- but I still have my doubts that it is fully equal for White with best play.

If White is a BDG nut it's probably White's best way of getting something similar, as 3 c4?! is completely unsound and 3 Nc3 dxe4 4 f3?! is well met by 4...Bb4! (MNb's suggestion).  That said, I haven't seen any compelling reason to prefer 3 Be3 to my usual 3 Nc3 against the French.
  
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