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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Please, refute the BDG if you can. (Read 33941 times)
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #50 - 09/19/05 at 19:09:05
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I thought when he reached 500 he'd stop posting nonsense.

Smiley
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #49 - 09/19/05 at 19:00:05
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That's especially true of BDG fans, X!  Grin
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #48 - 09/19/05 at 18:37:29
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You mean like this?   Grin

You see, this is what you get when you demand things from chess players.  Chess players don't like being told what to do.   Smiley
  

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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #47 - 09/19/05 at 13:26:35
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Such a comment from you? I always thought you were only concerned about what will happen man-against-man in blitz games. And as to that I think almost everyone agrees that under those circumstances white has good chances of getting a decent or even good (to great) position.

At the moment it seems to me that basically white at best has = or =/+ in a number of variations (Lemberger, the Bf5 variations tried by me and Markovich in our games against Patrick and ArKheiN respectively, the Euwe, where white seems to pin his hopes to moves like a3 or h3 etc.) and I doubt that white can really do much better in most of those.


More useless musing

He wants moves  Grin
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #46 - 09/19/05 at 13:25:01
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On the first sentence:  Yes, we have very different ideas, so our assessments are evaluated with emphasis on different considerations.  I am not of the opinion that 8...h6 "completely eliminates White's kingside play."  I think you may be underestimating the difficultly of maneuvers involving queenside castling in this situation.  I see ...h6 as more of a "hook" in Black's position, than an effective prophylactic device.  The comment on ...g6 comes less from general consideration and more from necessity.  For one, black often wants to aim for an ...e5 break, and another consideration is if black is castling kingside, this move is often a must.  I don't believe in strict adherence to principles, but I am simply conveying my "feel" for the postion.  Black often has to have concrete forms of defense in mind, and I don't think just planning queenside castling is enough.  What are black's plans to consolidate?  When playing against the BDG, it is important to have an eye towards this, since sometimes the plan may be too slow.  I have had this happen a few times!

Another thing to note is g4-g5 may not necessarily be a great strength for White, and I think Black can often demonstrate it to be a weakness.  White always runs the risk of being overextended in these position.  These are currently my views on position, which seem to be diametrically opposed to yours!  I like to see conflicting views on a position, since they might indicate where I am wrong.  Smiley


He said no talking.

Toppy  Grin
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #45 - 09/19/05 at 13:23:29
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-/+ is asking a lot from Black.  I don't think that White is lost by playing the BDG, simply that he no longer can be said to have the advantage.  Viewing chess as a game solved to a draw with best play, this is immaterial, and in that sense, I do not think the BDG will ever be refuted.

But I am willing to take up the position from the other thread, if only so that I learn something.  Perhaps it will teach me to be more ambitious against the BDG.  At least, understand that I am playing for =+, and would not be disappointed with static equality, so if seeing such a continuation is insufficient to convince you, then you need not reply.  Others may prefer more enterprising play with Black.  For me, play continues:

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 (you may consider this a conditional move if you prefer an alternative for White).


He said no words.

Toppy  Grin
  

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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #44 - 09/19/05 at 11:34:57
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As you can imagine, I proposed 11.Nb5!? after somes criticals analysis, to see if it this really playable.  Your actual attempts to refute my 11.Nb5 are refuted !

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11...Qb4+ 12.c3 Qxb2 13.Rd1 cxb5 14.Qxb7 Qxc3+ 15.Kf2 Qc6 16.Bg2 Qxb7 17.Bxb7 e6 18.Bxa8 Bc5 and Black should win this endgame (it would be a bit of a struggle).


after 15.Kf2 Qc6 : 16.Rxd7! +- with 3 pawns downs!, but the terrible pressure on the queenside will regain material, while black's kingside is sleeping. Same after 15..f5 16.Rxd7! +-

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11...Qe5 12.0-0-0 cxb5 13.Bf4 Qf5 14.Bd3 Ne5 15.Bxf5 Nxf3 16.Bc8 e5 17.Be3 Be7 18.Bxb7 Bxg5 19.Rhe1 Nxe1 20.Bxg5 f6 21.Be3 Nxc2 22.Kxc2 Ke7 23.Bxa8 Rc8+ 24.Kd2 Nc6 25.Bxc6 Rxc6 26.Bxa7 an unclear endgame, but White should be happy.


14.Bd3 Ne5 (better try might be 14..Qc5 or 14..Qe6, but 15.Qxb7 after both, 15..Qc6 and White is better) 15.Qxb7! and White is +/- after both 15..Nxd3+ or 15..Qxf4+    

Do you agree with my analysis? If yes, you have to find something to the possible improvement (or alternative at least) : 11.Nb5!?

Of course the simplest way to try to refute 11.Nb5 : 11..cxb5 12.Qxb7 seems (=)(this is the first thing I had to analyse to see if 11.Nb5 was playable)

If White want to draw against a stronger opponent, playing a supposed strong defense against the BDG, then 11.Nb5 is the best move here, until someone find a real improvement in the Black side here.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #43 - 09/18/05 at 22:53:04
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8.g4 Qxd4 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 11.Nb5!? seems playable! Tell me what you play against 11.Nb5 to show me an advantage?(not a provocative question, I really want to know if this move is good enough, because it has a theorical interest for the whole 8.g4 Qxd4 variation, because if this move is good, it could be played instead of 11.Qf2 as an improvement, even if Leisebein continue to play this move, and never tried 11.Nb5)


This is certainly dangerous, and may in fact be White's best continuation at this point  (11.Qf2 h6! -/+).  Some analysis might be:

11...Qb4+ 12.c3 Qxb2 13.Rd1 cxb5 14.Qxb7 Qxc3+ 15.Kf2 Qc6 16.Bg2 Qxb7 17.Bxb7 e6 18.Bxa8 Bc5 and Black should win this endgame (it would be a bit of a struggle).

11...Qe5 12.0-0-0 cxb5 13.Bf4 Qf5 14.Bd3 Ne5 15.Bxf5 Nxf3 16.Bc8 e5 17.Be3 Be7 18.Bxb7 Bxg5 19.Rhe1 Nxe1 20.Bxg5 f6 21.Be3 Nxc2 22.Kxc2 Ke7 23.Bxa8 Rc8+ 24.Kd2 Nc6 25.Bxc6 Rxc6 26.Bxa7 an unclear endgame, but White should be happy.

This is my idea of best play for both sides, although additional study would probably lead to a tactical refutation of some moves.  Do let me know.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #42 - 09/18/05 at 22:39:58
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On the first sentence:  Yes, we have very different ideas, so our assessments are evaluated with emphasis on different considerations.


Yes, this is certainly true.  Of course, there are more than two ways to skin this cat.

The line which put me off the 8...e6/10...Nxc3 idea is (more or less):

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.g4 e6 9.g5 Nd5 10.Bd3 Nxc3 11.bxc3 Bd6 12.Rb1 Qe7 13.0-0 b6 14.a4

Black's last couple of moves are a bit suspect, sure, but White's idea in either case is to taget b6 with a4-a5, and after White castles force g6 and play h4-h5.  Alternatively, against 13...0-0 14.c4 seems interesting.  In addition to some central control, there is a clearance theme, to target the weakened dark squares with Bb2 (in some lines, after g6 has been played).

I'd compare this to what seems to be the critical line against 8...h6, something like:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.g4 h6 9.Be3 e6 10.Bd3 Nbd7 11.0-0 Qc7 12.Rab1 Bd6 13.b4 -- I think this is the right idea; White should immediately challenge Black's plan of castling queenside.  12.Rab1 is a bit committal, though, and maybe Black can be more circumspect.  But I think some of Black's resources are illustrated by 13...0-0-0 14.b5 c5 15.b6 axb6 16.Nb5 Qb8 17.c3 Bh2+ 18.Kh1 Qg3 19.Qxg3 Bxg3

In general, I believe that Black can defend against White's queenside thrusts, and White's weakended kingside comes under question.  Black has all sorts of good plans of opening the kingside with g5/h5.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #41 - 09/18/05 at 08:48:29
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We  will continue to  debate the correct moves until we establish what is correct and  what is not.

Such a comment from you? I always thought you were only concerned about what will happen man-against-man in blitz games. And as to that I think almost everyone agrees that under those circumstances white has good chances of getting a decent or even good (to great) position.

At the moment it seems to me that basically white at best has = or =/+ in a number of variations (Lemberger, the Bf5 variations tried by me and Markovich in our games against Patrick and ArKheiN respectively, the Euwe, where white seems to pin his hopes to moves like a3 or h3 etc.) and I doubt that white can really do much better in most of those.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #40 - 09/18/05 at 07:37:53
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These are both good points, but I think that this position cannot be treated just by those general principles, and I think that the resulting positions support this claim.

8...h6 has the advantage that it completely eliminates White's kingside play.  Sure, usually moving pawns like this is a weakness, but here the main threat was g4-g5 exposing f7.  Since the knight sits well on f6 shielding the pawn, it makes sense to prevent this advance.  Moreover, h4-g5 does not seem to be a realizable plan.  Since Black does not intend to castle kingside anyway, king safety isn't really an issue.  Critical here is that Black can now develop his pieces more harmoniously; the knight stays on f6 protecting f7, so Nbd7 is easy to play even after Qc7.  (Cf: 8...e6 lines where N(b)d7 is harder to come by, and Black castles kingside.)

I am less impressed with the idea that the light squares are weakened here; c6/e6 control the central squares well, and White has no way of exploiting the slight weakness of g6.  Moreover, this is more than offset, in my view, with the bind that Black has on the kingside dark squares after Qc7/Bd6.  White's dark bishop seems quite prospectless.


On the first sentence:  Yes, we have very different ideas, so our assessments are evaluated with emphasis on different considerations.  I am not of the opinion that 8...h6 "completely eliminates White's kingside play."  I think you may be underestimating the difficultly of maneuvers involving queenside castling in this situation.  I see ...h6 as more of a "hook" in Black's position, than an effective prophylactic device.  The comment on ...g6 comes less from general consideration and more from necessity.  For one, black often wants to aim for an ...e5 break, and another consideration is if black is castling kingside, this move is often a must.  I don't believe in strict adherence to principles, but I am simply conveying my "feel" for the postion.  Black often has to have concrete forms of defense in mind, and I don't think just planning queenside castling is enough.  What are black's plans to consolidate?  When playing against the BDG, it is important to have an eye towards this, since sometimes the plan may be too slow.  I have had this happen a few times!

Another thing to note is g4-g5 may not necessarily be a great strength for White, and I think Black can often demonstrate it to be a weakness.  White always runs the risk of being overextended in these position.  These are currently my views on position, which seem to be diametrically opposed to yours!  I like to see conflicting views on a position, since they might indicate where I am wrong.  Smiley
  

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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #39 - 09/17/05 at 22:31:32
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I'll be a man and admit that white has nothing after 4 ... Bb4.  Well done.

Nex
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #38 - 09/17/05 at 21:47:31
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Boy,

For a thread that wasn't supposed to have many words, both sides have been using up a lot of space.  I still haven't seen anything to address GM Prie's succinct comments except for, "BTW, GM Prie, I don't accept your "refutation" ... (NeX iRae)


I just don't see any good defense of the BDG.  Instead, I see a lot of argument about whether it's not as bad as its reputation or if it's worse than its reputation.  Let's move on to some openings that are actually played by the strongest players!


YOU  move on to other  openings, Smyslov Fan.  We  will continue to  debate the correct moves until we establish what is correct and  what is not.
   Me, I play a whole slew of other openings besides the BDG.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #37 - 09/17/05 at 20:00:11
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Boy,

For a thread that wasn't supposed to have many words, both sides have been using up a lot of space.  I still haven't seen anything to address GM Prie's succinct comments except for, "BTW, GM Prie, I don't accept your "refutation" ... (NeX iRae)


I just don't see any good defense of the BDG.  Instead, I see a lot of argument about whether it's not as bad as its reputation or if it's worse than its reputation.  Let's move on to some openings that are actually played by the strongest players!
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #36 - 09/17/05 at 15:36:16
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Also I don't like 8...h6 for the following two reasons:
1)  It compromises the kingside pawn structure before Black has completed development.  BDG players thrive upon opportunities like this.
2)  It does not seem very consistent with 6...Bxf3.  Black has just relinquished the bishop pair with the exchange of the light-squared bishop for the knight.  In such situations, Black would like to limit the influence of the bishop pair by protecting the squares of the missing light-squared bishop.  If Black is to move a kingside pawn, ...g6 seems more desirable than ...h6 from this perspective.


These are both good points, but I think that this position cannot be treated just by those general principles, and I think that the resulting positions support this claim.

8...h6 has the advantage that it completely eliminates White's kingside play.  Sure, usually moving pawns like this is a weakness, but here the main threat was g4-g5 exposing f7.  Since the knight sits well on f6 shielding the pawn, it makes sense to prevent this advance.  Moreover, h4-g5 does not seem to be a realizable plan.  Since Black does not intend to castle kingside anyway, king safety isn't really an issue.  Critical here is that Black can now develop his pieces more harmoniously; the knight stays on f6 protecting f7, so Nbd7 is easy to play even after Qc7.  (Cf: 8...e6 lines where N(b)d7 is harder to come by, and Black castles kingside.)

I am less impressed with the idea that the light squares are weakened here; c6/e6 control the central squares well, and White has no way of exploiting the slight weakness of g6.  Moreover, this is more than offset, in my view, with the bind that Black has on the kingside dark squares after Qc7/Bd6.  White's dark bishop seems quite prospectless.
  
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