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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Please, refute the BDG if you can. (Read 33947 times)
lost highway
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #65 - 10/13/05 at 20:03:04
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Against 1...Nf6 the only way to try to play a BDG is 2.f3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.c4 being OK for White when 1.d4 d5! 2.Nc3 (2.f3 c5) d5 3.f3 is equally refuted by 3...c5.
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4? contrarily to the easy equalizing Lemberger provides Black with a clear advantage in all the lines of the Hubsch 3...Nxe4! 4.Nxe4 dxe4 " Black parts with his kingside best defensive piece" Diemer's rubbish or ignorance at the time.
The truth is that it fluidifies his development and exchanges White's best piece!

True, the Hubsch line gives black an advantage if white tries to play the BDG.  However, I think someone who plays 1.d4 d5 would already have a killer line prepared for a BDG that commonly starts this way:  1.d4 d5 2.e4 de4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 fe4, etc.  Although the Hubsch line is good, it would require a 1.d4 d5 player to know two ways to deal with an attempted, or actual BDG: one way for 2.e4 and another way for 2.Nc3.

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GMEricPrie
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #64 - 10/11/05 at 02:25:01
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Against 1...Nf6 the only way to try to play a BDG is 2.f3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.c4 being OK for White when 1.d4 d5! 2.Nc3 (2.f3 c5) d5 3.f3 is equally refuted by 3...c5.
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4? contrarily to the easy equalizing Lemberger provides Black with a clear advantage in all the lines of the Hubsch 3...Nxe4! 4.Nxe4 dxe4 " Black parts with his kingside best defensive piece" Diemer's rubbish or ignorance at the time.
The truth is that it fluidifies his development and exchanges White's best piece!
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #63 - 10/10/05 at 11:22:09
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Generally BDGers tend to play 3.Be3 against the French followed by Nd2 and f3, but I consider it to be an inferior version (but still unclear, even if I would prefer the Black side) of the BDG. Personnally I continue with 3.Nc3 but I like to play the French advance sometimes. A BDGer is practically forced to know how to play the normal 3.Nc3 because of the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 (one of the 2 ways to play a BDG with 2.f3)..d5 3.e4 e6 and here I play both 4.e5 and 4.Bg5, but theses times I like to play the Anand/Shirov variation with 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nce2. Against the Winawer (only available with the move order 1.d4 d5 e4 e6 where both color have more choices) I can play the normal theory, but I like to play sometimes  3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3!? Bxc3 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3!? (6.Qg4 is more standard here and is (=), but the text move 6.f3 is more in the spirit of the BDG, this is the Winckelmann-Reimer gambit), it could be not totally sound (somes guys will say the BDG is not sound either, but of course no one proved the contrary) but that's quite fun to play, with good practical chances.

I know that Leisebein plays the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit, and the Alapin-Diemer gambit in CC with correct results, but he can also play the normal French theory, depending of the moves order
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #62 - 10/10/05 at 10:15:49
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By the way, I am curious....

BDGers,

When you're faced with the French, how many of you play the main lines against it?  That is, how many play the Advance (Nimzovich), Tarrasch, Steinitz, Classical (and all its variants), or Winawer as White?

How many of you play less trodden paths such as 3.Be3 or other moves that don't have the same practical pedigree but that may lead the unwary into a BDG-type of game?
  
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tafl
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #61 - 10/07/05 at 08:06:25
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In practical play 2...e6 is a very good reply to the BDG, as a lot of BDG players will reply with the ridiculous 3.Be3?, after which 3...dxe4 is already clear advantage to Black (while 2...dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 or 3...Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 in my opinion is roughly equal).
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #60 - 10/07/05 at 06:24:28
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Ok Smyslov, I have been a bit agressive with my response, but I tought it was quite easy to come here as total anonymous, and to give an easy response 2..e6 where anyone noticed that this transpose into a French. It was quite provocative for me, and not too helpful.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #59 - 10/07/05 at 02:35:52
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Arkhein,

Why do you attack poor, defenseless guests like that?  You could have simply acknowledged that White can play the French which is under a bit of a cloud at the highest levels right now. 

All White has to do in that case is the opposite of what most BDGers want to do and actually take the advice of GMs and play the best lines!!! Wink
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #58 - 10/06/05 at 12:45:14
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Hello Mr guest, you think you are a genius because you noticed that 2..e6 transpose into a French? No problem, a BDGer should be ready to face a French or a Pirc, so I would play 3.Nc3, and I managed to play an e4 repertoire (if my opponent decline the BDG with a Pirc or a French, not the Caro because of 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3 with still a possible BDG) where Black couldn't choose 1..e5 or 1..c5, not that bad right?
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #57 - 10/06/05 at 11:18:49
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 e6!
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #56 - 09/21/05 at 01:42:42
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I'm getting dizzy.  Tongue  What line are we looking at now?


Probably you are  looking at lions Tongue
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #55 - 09/19/05 at 22:25:40
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I'm getting dizzy.  Tongue  What line are we looking at now?
  
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Scholar
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #54 - 09/19/05 at 20:19:15
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Sorry, X.  If my life (read: repertoire) depended upon it, I'm sure I could eventually work out the details.  But since it doesn't, I'll save my energy for positions with more strategic depth.

Which reminds me of a couple of other lines that ArKheiN has been neglecting...
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #53 - 09/19/05 at 19:43:28
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To be honest, Fritz "understands" these positions better than I do, and so they are not much fun for me to analyze.  It'd be better to let the computer run for a couple of days and then mop up.  


It's depressing to hear people say this.  It sounds like chess is dying.   Cry
  

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Scholar
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #52 - 09/19/05 at 19:30:42
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As you can imagine, I proposed 11.Nb5!? after somes criticals analysis, to see if it this really playable.  Your actual attempts to refute my 11.Nb5 are refuted !
[...]

If White want to draw against a stronger opponent, playing a supposed strong defense against the BDG, then 11.Nb5 is the best move here, until someone find a real improvement in the Black side here.


I'm hardly surprised that White can do better.  To be honest, Fritz "understands" these positions better than I do, and so they are not much fun for me to analyze.  It'd be better to let the computer run for a couple of days and then mop up.  I'm sure you've checked carefully that White is OK after Black's other alternatives; even earlier, 10...Nd5 may put the whole circus out of business.  I'm not sure I found equality after cxb5, but your other suggestions seem well-founded.

I might caution: if a strong player chooses this line, it is because Black wins.  No strong corr. player would even consider entering the Qxd4 variations without having already checked things very carefully; it is simply not worth the risk.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #51 - 09/19/05 at 19:24:39
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Scholar, who are you talking about?   Grin

Smyslov Fan, that's one reason I sympathize with BDG players who want to show that the BDG is playable.  I certainly agree with them that many people provide unconvincing refutations, but I would really just rather play Black.  Smiley

Just imagine the resources they would find if they spent all that energy on a more fruitful opening.  It appears that Tekyo is discovering this.  Smiley
  

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