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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 9.0-0-0 (Read 9095 times)
bob000
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #20 - 10/20/05 at 16:24:10
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Lost Highway. Don't despair, there are so many blind 10 move deep evaluations because it's not as hard as you think. You build up the skill naturally as you get better at calculation and even moreso in blindfold games. Of course, as SmyslovFan points out, blindfold analysis is far more prone to oversights, which is why it is a good idea to mention what tools your using when posting analysis.
  
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rooksway18
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #19 - 10/20/05 at 12:15:02
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Is the game Struik-Tiviakov, 04', 0-1, mentioned in 'starting out: sicilian dragon' the last word on this topic?
It started 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Rc8 10.g4 Ne5 11.h4 h5 12.g5 Nh7 13.f4 Ng4 14.Bh3 Qa5, varying (improving?) on the game mentioned in this thread, Korneev-Tiviakov, 1997.

And regarding Van Der Weil-Van Wessel referenced above, it seems 12...RxNc3, as in Ady-Mestel, 1991, (mentioned in 'easy guide to the Dragon') improves on black's play.
  
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MNb
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #18 - 09/23/05 at 08:15:09
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I remember, that I spend a few days on my rooks arrangement. The same YB-48 shows a game by Jagupov, who played 15.Rhf1, but I had the feeling that the rooks belonged on f1 and g1. That is just simple MNb, directing as many pieces against the Black king as possible.
-I rejected 15.Rhg1 because of Nc4 16.Bxc4 Rxc4 17.Rdf1 Qa5 or 17.fxg6 fxg6 18.Nf5 Rxc3 19.Nxg7 Rxe3 20.Nxe8 Rxe4.
-In the Jagupov game 15.Rhf1 Kh8 was played. After 15.Rdf1 Kh8 16.Nd5 Rc5 White probably should have played 17.Nf3. This line makes me wonder, if it really makes any difference to play 15.Rdf1 or 15.Rhf1. Maybe it does after 15.Rdf1 Kh8 16.Nd5 e6 17.Nf6, but this is not forced at all. White can play 15.Rdf1 Kh8 16.Rhg1 first too.
-15.Rdf1 Qa5 16.Nb3 Qc7 17.Nd5 Nc4 18.Bxc4 Qxc4 19.f6 and I evaluated this as somewhat better; now I am not so sure anymore. White has 16.Kb1 of course.
-I had planned 17...b5 18.Qf2 Kh8 19.Rhg1 (again) e5 (a5 20.b3 Rc8 21.fxg6 fxg6 22.Qf7 wins) 20.fxe6 fxe6 21.Nf4 Nf8 22.Nxh5 gxh5 23.Qh4 and was confident about my chances. Now I now, that 22.Qf3 is the way to go, keeping the choice of 23.Nxg6+ and 23.Nxh5 open.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #17 - 09/23/05 at 00:33:09
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Good game, MNb!

Do you have more complete notes on it that you're willing to share?
  
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MNb
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #16 - 09/21/05 at 21:03:35
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NIC YB-48 contains the following game:

MNb - Goudriaan,M
corr H/427 1998
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.o-o-o Rc8 10.g4 h5 11.g5 Nh7 12.f4 o-o 13.Be2 Re8 14.f5 (suggested by Tiviakov in YB-45) Ne5 15.Rdf1 (looks better to me than 15.Rhf1) Nc4?! 16.Bxc4 Rxc4 17.Nd5 e6?! 18.Nf6 Nxf6 19.gxf6 Bxf6 20.fxg6 Rf8? 21.Rhg1 Bg7 22.gxf7 1-0.
The marks are from Sosonko; he does not give any improvement for Black though in his reply.

10...Ne5 has been dealt by Smyslov_Fan; another example is Van der Wiel-Van Wessel, NEDchT 2000.
10...o-o might be critical after 11.h4 Ne5 12.Kb1 h5 13.Be2!?
  

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lost highway
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #15 - 09/21/05 at 13:05:18
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SF -

Got it.  I've seen "no sight" analysis being posted occasionally that runs close to 10 moves deep.  It makes me wonder:  why can't I do that?  Or, maybe the posters are not really posting "no sight" analysis, but they are just claiming that's what they are doing?  And, why would they make that bogus claim?  Hmmm... Wink

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #14 - 09/21/05 at 12:42:23
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Lost,

I recognise that you were writing sardonically, but I think you deserve a straight answer.  First of all, without a board, I make plenty of mistakes (such as forget a move pair, and often make one-move blunders), so I don't qualify myself as a blindfold genius.  However, I can read a game score without a board, and have successfully played blindfold exhibitions (two games is my max!).  

Visualization is perhaps the most essential ingredient in a chess player, and any way you can use to build up those muscles is good.  Of course, for serious analysis one should use all the resources available too.  This includes having a board and moving the pieces through variations, using books, and also using computer engines such as Fritz.  This is why I usually say when my analysis is off-the-cuff or when I use Fritz to help me.

It's a great idea to have a pocket set, but typing these at work (even though I put in plenty of hours) is about as far as I'll go.  I won't pull out a chess set unless it's for the school chess club.  I actually do have plenty of grading and planning to do to!  (Hard to believe, I know.)
« Last Edit: 09/21/05 at 15:16:44 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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lost highway
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #13 - 09/21/05 at 11:15:31
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Quote:
I too am operating without a board, but it does look good for White.  Maybe this is what Eric M. is worried about?


Again with the "no board" analysis that seems to be the norm on this site.  Me, I need to see the pieces, which is why I always carry around a pocket set with me.  There are so many blindfold geniuses on this site who post analysis without seeing the board.  Wink 

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #12 - 09/21/05 at 10:24:38
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IM Martin,

I look forward to your new book!

Quote:
 
 Is there a problem with 8...Bd7 that I don't know about Eric ?


I don't know, but I'd guess the problem with that move order is that is forgoes the ...d5 sac lines that are so popular. Nunn, in NCO (p.222), does give the game Korneev-Tiviakov (rapid game, 1997) as an example of White maintaining a slight edge in your line:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 ( or did you mean the 7...0-0 line?) 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.0-0-0 (9.Bc4 is also playable but not the topic here) Rc8 10.g4 Ne5 (or transposing to the main line with 10...0-0) 11.h4 h5 12.g5 Nh7 (I'm already liking White here) 13.f4 Ng4 14.Bh3 (or 14.f5!? ~Nunn) Ne3 15.Bd7+ Qd7 16.Qe3 0-0 17.e5 +/=.

I too am operating without a board, but it does look good for White.  Maybe this is what Eric M. is worried about?
  
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IMAndrew Martin
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #11 - 09/21/05 at 07:45:16
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  Writing to you all from one of my schools and I have no chess set to hand,but I conclude in Starting Out the Sicilian Dragon ( to be published very shortly) that Black's most accurate move order of all is 8...Bd7! and then after 9 0-0-0 Rc8 or even 9...h5!? Only after 8...Bd7 9 Bc4 should Black castle.


Tiviakov continues to defend these lines with success as you almost certainly all know.

  Is there a problem with 8...Bd7 that I don't know about Eric ?
  
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MNb
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #10 - 09/20/05 at 20:39:13
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"Yes you know 5.c4, now suggest something against it."
One can follow Tiviakov's play.
Silman's suggestion 5...Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Nc3 Ng4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 9.Qd1 e5 might be not so bad as its current reputation.
All I say is this: the strong 9.o-o-o appears to be, the more reason to spend some energy on The Accelerated Dragon. At the other hand, if Black is OK after 9.o-o-o, he can forget that option.
  

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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #9 - 09/20/05 at 20:36:10
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Well, in some old notes I had 13...Qc7 as a solution, and probably 15...Qc7 works just as well (maybe even better, since I doubt b3/Na5 is really helping White much).
  
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lost highway
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #8 - 09/20/05 at 18:19:47
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@LostHighway:
as far as I know, black has problems after 13. ... Qb6 14. Na4
Qa5 15.b3 Bf5 16.Qc5! see van der Wiel - Golubev, 1999
van der Wiel seems to be the ultimate dragon killer!  Wink


I've seen it...see my post on July 27 where I said 15...Qc7 is the move.

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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #7 - 09/20/05 at 14:56:45
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What variation is currently threatening the 9...d5 variations.  I thought both 13...Re8 and 13...Be6 were doing OK for the time being.
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #6 - 09/20/05 at 08:09:53
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@LostHighway:
as far as I know, black has problems after 13. ... Qb6 14. Na4
Qa5 15.b3 Bf5 16.Qc5! see van der Wiel - Golubev, 1999
van der Wiel seems to be the ultimate dragon killer!  Wink
  
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