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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open Sicilian for the White amateur? (Read 17598 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #33 - 09/27/05 at 09:36:44
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Mad_knight,

Thanks for mentioning chesslab.com!  I haven't heard of that site before.  Regarding the stats.... considering ....e6 and Nc6 followed by ...e6 are so transpositional it's weird to see such a huge disparity between the stats.  I wonder what's going on.  Do you have any explanation for that?
  
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mad_knight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #32 - 09/27/05 at 09:29:31
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Oh no, not the Alapin again! Remember, I stopped playing the Morra because I got disgusted with the Alapin. Angry  And why bother to learn what is really another opening that's got nothing to do with the Open, just to counter some Mickey Mouse opening that you'll probably meet only once in a blue moon!?

I'm sorry, but I'd rather try to trap my opponent into something I KNOW, and 3 Nc3 just seems to do the trick. Grin  I did a little analysis on chesslab.com and after 1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 a6, 3 Nc3 came up with the following stats (White wins/Black wins/Draw):

3...e6 (Kan): 36/31/33
3...d6 (Najdorf): 36/32/32
3...Nc6, 4 d4 cxd4, 5 Nxd4 e6 (Taimanov): 40/27/33
3...Nc6, 4 d4 cxd4, 5 Nxd4 e5, 6 Nf5 (?!): 76/17/7 (only 17 games in this variation)

Based on these stats, I'd be ready to put my money on this, not you? Wink

Cheers

PS:  I'll have a look at the specific threads re the Accelerated Dragon, more specifically re the threat of a quick d5 by Black
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #31 - 09/27/05 at 00:25:17
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Just in case some of you don't know, there are active threads on the ...e5 variation that Willempie mentions and also on the Accelerated Dragon that Mad_knight mentions in their respective forae.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #30 - 09/26/05 at 16:26:35
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When playing 1e4 c5 2Nf3 e6 3Nc3 you avoid a couple of tricky sidelines. For example some cult lines like 4 .. Qb6 and the pin variation (1e4 c5 2Nf3 e6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Bb4). Objectively they are probably not very good, but you will always see that you get such a line against the local expert, which is usually not good news. It does indeed bar any Maroczy bind in the Kan or Taimanov, but I have also never played those, it looks a bit unnatural to me.
Against 2.. d6 3 Nc3's main use is to confuse your opponent. Eg if he is a Najdorf player he may hate the closed or setups with Bb5 so he may choose a move which doesnt get him a Najdorf (Nc6 for example). So it is purely psychological.
Also against 2 .. Nf6 (Nimzowitsch) it is quite ok, though you will probably face that line once every 5 years.
I wouldnt recommend it against other 2nd moves though (which is why you shouldnt play Nc3 at the 2nd move). The O'Kelly is one of the few openings where white often switches to 3 c3 in order to play a c3 sicilian a tempo up.
BtW I'd warn against Nc3 setup against the accelerated dragon. Usually black is able to push through d5 in one go despite a bishop on c4.
  

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mad_knight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #29 - 09/26/05 at 14:15:19
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Doesn't it also preclude you from playing the Maroczy bind in variations such as the Taimanov, Accelerated Dragon or Kan?  It wouldn't bother me since I don't like to play the bind anyway.  In the Accelerated Dragon, for example, I transpose to the normal Dragon via the "Modern Variation with Bc4" (ECO B35) and in the 2 other variations mentioned I play Nc3 anyway.

Could you give me some examples of annoying sidelines I'd avoid with 3 Nc3? You mentioned only after 2 ...d6 or 2 ...e6, but what about after 2 ...Nf6 (Nimzowitsch)? Or hoping to transpose to the Najdorf or Taimanov after 2 ...a6 (O'Kelly)?  Any other examples?

Cheers
  

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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #28 - 09/26/05 at 09:32:32
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Yeah, but it is not such a good idea to play it 2nd move, only if you also play the closed sicilian or the Grandprix. I use it very often because I used to play the closed and I like to annoy those Najdorf players.

Eg 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Nf3 and now black has the option of going for an accelerated dragon without having to worry about the best line for white or he probably can even play 3 .. e5. In short only do it on move 3 and only after 2 .. e6 or 2 .. d6.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #27 - 09/26/05 at 08:51:03
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Willempie is exactly right about playing Nc3 before d4!  This has a very high pedigree.  Another non-standard move order that is especially tricky was used by Fischer in the Spassky return match: 

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 (tho I don't think Spassky actually played 2...e6.) 3.Nge2!? and only on the fourth move did he play d4.

This gives White the "threat" of playing the GPA and other closed Sicilians while leaving open transpositions to the standard Open Sicilian.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #26 - 09/26/05 at 08:11:27
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One last tip, the experts book is very good, though I suspect that the some of the lines are a bit too theoretical for you. For example the Keres attack and Bg5 Najdorf are very difficult to just play.
On the other hand some of the lines against certain "cult" variations are very easy to pick up. I dont know if you play at a chessclub but very often there are certain players who always play the same minor opening variation. Eg we have 2 guys here one of which always plays a Kalashnikov and the other an accelerated dragon. Since I got the book I got 2/2 against them.
Another theory-saving trick is to play 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 Nc3 followed by 4 d4. This avoids all kinds of weird sidelines, which in itself arent that good but are very annoying when you have never seen them before. It is also possible against 2 .. d6, though there you will only win some time.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #25 - 09/25/05 at 11:35:29
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Mad_knight,

It's great that you're having fun!  The Velimirovic isn't exactly my favorite line as White either.
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #24 - 09/25/05 at 09:41:19
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Smyslov Fan

But I AM having fun playing the way I do!  And I HAVE done some research on the Velimirovic and did not like it...  To me, it's better to first become good in what you like and understand, and only then go for the more complex stuff, which I'll probably appreciate much more then.  I'll therefore keep your advice in mind to play the Velemirovic in blitz games... when I'm ready for it. Wink

Mnb, Willempie, woofwoof

thanks for these further clarifications, which are all very helpful. Smiley

Inn2,

I'm trying to stick to main lines as well, with the added vaue of a "common denominator" such as Bc4 and Nb5, respectively, to make things easier.  There's no such "common denominator" in the lines recommended by the "Experts vs the Sicilian', I'm afraid. Undecided

Cheers
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #23 - 09/25/05 at 01:39:21
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I would say its actually not a bad idea to learn the main main lines, like the repertoire in Experts v. Sicilian.

Its not as difficult as you would imagine, as main line moves tend to be more natural and easy to remember. In chess the most natural moves also tend to be the strongest! Furthermore, one does not need to learn many sidelines, as Black is splattered if he deviates. If you know your main lines well, you can figure out the "punishment" easily OTB (which frequently means you play out the move you would have played had he played the main line).  Grin
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #22 - 09/25/05 at 00:27:56
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Quote:
English Attack:  could we perhaps say that it is much like a Yugoslav without 6 Bc4 thrown in?! (and not "6 c4" as in my text Angry)


You wont be able to throw in a Bc4 in the English attack because for eg in the Najdorf....6.Be3 e5 7Nb3, with the Kt already on b3 your bishop on c4 has no way to retreat & still maintain control of the c4-f7 diagonal after black replies b5. So the forced retreat to d3 or e2 is just a waste of tempo.

The white k-side piece set up for the English & Yugoslav are similar. In the Yugoslav Bc4 can be  played on the 9th move after 8.Qd2 as I mentioned earlier. On the black side  in the English attack there is no g6, but in the Yugoslav there is g6 (as pointed out by willempie) Hence the Yugoslav would draw more blood than the English since the g6 pawn becomes a target & white's eventual exchange of his h pawn for the g6 pawn opens up the h file for the rooks. Once this is successful, as Fischer says "sac, sac, mate!"
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #21 - 09/24/05 at 17:35:38
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Quote:
Hi Willempie,

"With the Velimirovic the queen goes to e2"
Oops, I overlooked that one! Thanks for pointing this out to me.

English Attack:  could we perhaps say that it is much like a Yugoslav without 6 Bc4 thrown in?! (and not "6 c4" as in my text Angry)

Thanks for pointing out the similarities of the Fischer-Sozin with certain e4-e5 openings, as well as recommending the Yugoslav against the Dragon.  It so happens I play the Italian after 1 ...e5 and the 150 Attack against the Pirc-Modern, so the recommend lines fit perfectly with the rest of my repertoire. Grin

Which is also one more reason to stay out of the Velimirovic for the moment, the other being "don't run before you can walk", right?

Cheers!

Main difference between the english attack and the yugo is the g6 move. So imho the yugo attack has much more in common with those attacks against the pirc and the likes.
The similarities with the Italian are there. I played the italian from like 12 and the Sozin/Fischer setup came very natural, only later I found out it was theory. There are 2 differences with regards to tactics. In the sicilian black will block the bishop with e6, but on the other hand you've got tactics like Nd5 (sometimes even Nf5), which would be stupid in the italian.
So in short, use the Fischer book it will learn you a lot more than I or others could do, especially on explaining the ideas.

Ps Fischer played the Italian a lot in his youth, so there you've got another idea about the similarities.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #20 - 09/24/05 at 15:32:00
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@Madknight
Your nomenclature is a bit confusing, so here is a better one. Basically you must look at Black's 2nd and 5th move.
2...d6/5...g6 Dragon
Subvariations: Classical 6.Be2, Löwenfisj 6.f4, Jugoslav Attack 6.f3/7.Be3/8.Qd2 and others.

2...d6/5...a6 Najdorf
English Attack 6.f3/7.Be3, Pseudo-Sozin 6.Bc4, Classical 6.Be2 etc.

2...d6/5...e6 Scheveningen
Keres Attack 6.g4, Classical 6.Be2, English Attack 6.Be3/7.f3 etc.

2...d6/5...Nc6
Richter-Rauser 6.Bg5, Velimirovic Attack 6.Bc4/7.Bb3/8.Be3/9.Qe2, Boleslavski 6.Be2 e5.

2...Nc6/5...e5 Svesjnikov, sometimes Lasker-Pelikann.
2...Nc6/4...g6 Accelerated Dragon.
2...Nc6/4...e5 Löwenthal and Kalasjnikov.
2...e6/4...a6, 2...e6/4...Nc6 Paulsen/Taimanov/Kan.

Of course there are several transpositions possible yet.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #19 - 09/24/05 at 15:10:23
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I love the name of this thread, Sicilian for the White Amateur.  An amateur plays for the love of the game, and so anything that you do that will fuel this love has to be good.  With that in mind, if you like complicated messes, go for them! 

The Velimirovic is indeed a mess, especially for novices, but if you're playing for the love of the game, then it's worth at least a bit of research to find out what it's about.   The advice given in another thread that you should play some games in blitz in these variations still holds true here.  Just remember to have fun!
  
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