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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open Sicilian for the White amateur? (Read 17595 times)
woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #63 - 10/12/05 at 22:56:20
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LOL! hope you know better now.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #62 - 10/12/05 at 09:43:46
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Reminds me of one of my first annotated games, which I saw when I was cleaning up the house (I was white).
1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6 ? "This must be a very bad move, no development"  Grin
  

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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #61 - 10/11/05 at 11:35:41
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I still dont understand the fuss. If you are going to delay Nc6 so say 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 g6 then still after Bc4, Be3, f3 (not necessarily in that order) you get into yugoslav dragon territory. If you then keep insisting on not playing Nc6 as black I think you are basically obliged to flick in a6 at some point thus returning to my original post. I'll admit I misunderstood BK's question, but I think it doesnt make a practical difference.


Well....yeah! thats correct too, even if you used a very extreme example to illustrate it. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
@woofwoof, that was exactly my point about g6-a6 setups, they tend to work only with "lesser" lines for white eg 6 h3, which I think everyone will agree doesnt threaten the survival of the Najdorf. I have won quite some games by move-ordering people out of the Najdorf into the dragon, without them realising that a6 isnt really what is called for when you get H-bombed in the Yugo. Eg games against Najdorf afficionados often start 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 (supposedly best against the closed) 3 Nf3 d6 4 d4 cxd4 5 Nxd4 and now they discover they have to go into the dragon or the classical, which they are far less familiar with and especially in the dragon they tend to play a6 at some point. I think that a6-move is probably something genetic with Najdorf players Grin


Ah! i see now! thanks for clarifying. I thought when you wrote 'variations' earlier you were refering to things like Najdorf, Boleslavsky, Dragon etc etc variations of the sicilian rather than individual lines.

You maybe right abt that genetic bit with Najdorf players. It has also crept into my KID! I somehow feel very insecure without a6 such that I tend to throw it in even in lines where it is not the norm to play it or whenever I get a chance! Grin lol.

Thanks also for sharing abt the 2.Nc3 bit. I think I need to look at these transpositional subtleties so that I dont get stuck in some kind of dragon.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #60 - 10/11/05 at 08:14:07
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Well the advantage for me is that the closed sicilian is very popular and I have played it myself a lot, which a lot of players here remember. So when they see 2 Nc3 they automatically assume a closed sicilian.

Btw players like Short and Timman often make use of these transpositional tricks. As an example check Timman-Polugayevsky Amsterdam 1981 in which Timman move-ordered Polu into a sub-optimal closed.
1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Nf3 e6 4 g3 Nf6 5 Bg2 d6 6 0-0 and now 6 .. g6 (best in the closed) isnt so good as white can transpose to an open sicilian where black has a weird mix of schevy and dragon which doesnt look too good. Polu played Be7 and got into a closed, got cramped and lost. Keep in mind with these tricks that it helps to know your closed stuff as well.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #59 - 10/11/05 at 07:51:20
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Willempie,

Thanks for clarifying things, your latest post really helps me!  I agree with your move order finesses, and I should keep them in mind in case I ever run into them.

I haven't noticed too much subtlety by players in my area when it comes to these nuances and reading these posts are certainly helping me to see more opportunities for me to take advantage of them myself!
  
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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #58 - 10/11/05 at 04:07:08
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I still dont understand the fuss. If you are going to delay Nc6 so say 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 g6 then still after Bc4, Be3, f3 (not necessarily in that order) you get into yugoslav dragon territory. If you then keep insisting on not playing Nc6 as black I think you are basically obliged to flick in a6 at some point thus returning to my original post. I'll admit I misunderstood BK's question, but I think it doesnt make a practical difference.

@woofwoof, that was exactly my point about g6-a6 setups, they tend to work only with "lesser" lines for white eg 6 h3, which I think everyone will agree doesnt threaten the survival of the Najdorf. I have won quite some games by move-ordering people out of the Najdorf into the dragon, without them realising that a6 isnt really what is called for when you get H-bombed in the Yugo. Eg games against Najdorf afficionados often start 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 (supposedly best against the closed) 3 Nf3 d6 4 d4 cxd4 5 Nxd4 and now they discover they have to go into the dragon or the classical, which they are far less familiar with and especially in the dragon they tend to play a6 at some point. I think that a6-move is probably something genetic with Najdorf players Grin
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #57 - 10/11/05 at 01:13:44
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Woofwoof,

I agree completely that I am missing some key points in this thread.  Your comments about playing ...g6 only after a4 or h3 makes perfect sense.  In fact, taken completely on their own, you messages usually make great sense.  I'm confused over all the other comments that are suggesting several different variations as if they are the same thing.

Perhaps I should just follow one or two writers and try to make sense of what they are suggesting.  Trying to make a single narrative from all these crossing ideas is making my head hurt.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #56 - 10/11/05 at 00:33:23
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it seems with the early a6 one might be able to playin chinese dragon fashion with Rb8 and b5. This is the dragon i would play if i ever take it up.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #55 - 10/11/05 at 00:17:41
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You may have missed the point here a little, smyslov .Dragondorf or whatever you want to call it is never meant to be a main line system on its own against white. Black is better off  playing the Najdorf proper.

However only in those exceptions where white essays moves like 6.a4, & 6.h3 then the best options recommended are to transpose into a schevy or a dragon. or perhaps even in the 6.f4 systems.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #54 - 10/11/05 at 00:03:08
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BK,

You were right all along.  The first time ...a6 creeped into the move order was with Willempie's post and I thought I had missed something.  I'm sorry for my confusion on this.

Woofwoof, I will still disagree that the Najdorf-Dragon is a dangerous weapon.  There are of course many interesting variations.  After all, Black has only lost a tempo and White needs to prove that it's important.  But The burden is on Black to prove his move order is more than merely a confusion of two distinct systems.

I'm not sure that this really belongs in this thread or the Dragon thread, but since it's here, let's deal with it.  But remember, there's already a thread devoted to the "dragondorf" or whatever it's being called.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #53 - 10/10/05 at 18:17:58
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my bad i didnt realise we had included an early a6
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #52 - 10/10/05 at 13:45:14
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Oops! sorry.  For 6.a4, i'd rather respond 6....Nc6!? instead of 6...e6.
  

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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #51 - 10/10/05 at 12:06:54
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Willempie & Smyslov,

BK's question might be a bit vague here, but my impression was his query might be referring to  the following:

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 g6
then 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4

In the case of 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6 6 Bc4 g6 my query would be: why on earth would black want to venture 6...g6 here ??? We are already on the Najdorf Bc4 line already. So the only logical move by black here is 6...e6. However if black is so insistant on doing so, then playing 7.f3 & steering it into a Yugoslav as mentioned is best. I agree this much.

Quote:
Generally speaking a6 and g6 dont combine well in the sicilian, especially in the sharper variations.


Which Variations? Maybe in the dragon proper but definitely not from dragons springing from the Najdorf:
1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6

now:
1) 6.h3 g6
2) 6.a4 g6
are good responses for black.

the following line 6.f4 Qc7 7.a4 g6  isnt bad for black either.

Tho personally i'd rather  play 6...e6  for the 1st 2 & play 6...e5 against 6.f4.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #50 - 10/10/05 at 09:53:32
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Willempie and all,

I should have noticed the inclusion of ...a6.  Clearly, White is very happy to see Black waste a move in the Dragon with ...a6 and has no real fears from a theoretical perspective.  There are of course practical hurdles to jump, but White simply must have an advantage when Black mixes systems like this.  I've only played against ...a6 in blitz and have an overwhelming score despite being primarily a "left-handed" player as White.  (That's a reference to Petrosian's playing d-pawn, c4, and Nf3 openings.)
  
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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #49 - 10/10/05 at 02:51:50
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thanks but what about the variation wher black delays Nc6 in preferance for an inmediate g6? does it still apply?

I suppose you mean 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6 6 Bc4 g6?
I wouldnt exactly call this much of a headache for white. After 7 f3 you can head for a yugo attack where black has swapped his handy Nc6 move in for a dubious (in the yugo main line) a6. Generally speaking a6 and g6 dont combine well in the sicilian, especially in the sharper variations.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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