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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open Sicilian for the White amateur? (Read 26979 times)
mad_knight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #18 - 09/24/05 at 15:08:28
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Hi Willempie,

"With the Velimirovic the queen goes to e2"
Oops, I overlooked that one! Thanks for pointing this out to me.

English Attack:  could we perhaps say that it is much like a Yugoslav without 6 Bc4 thrown in?! (and not "6 c4" as in my text Angry)

Thanks for pointing out the similarities of the Fischer-Sozin with certain e4-e5 openings, as well as recommending the Yugoslav against the Dragon.  It so happens I play the Italian after 1 ...e5 and the 150 Attack against the Pirc-Modern, so the recommend lines fit perfectly with the rest of my repertoire. Grin

Which is also one more reason to stay out of the Velimirovic for the moment, the other being "don't run before you can walk", right?

Cheers!
  

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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #17 - 09/24/05 at 13:04:41
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I'll give some comments which may be helpfull
Quote:
I must admit when first I got acquainted with the Open Sicilian nomenclature, I got quite confused. Undecided  After some study I came to the following conclusions, which I hope are correct

Black defences:

- the Classical variation in the Dragon, Najdorf and Scheveningen begins with 6 Be2.  However, 6 Be2 in the Classical Variation which arises after 1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 d6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4, Nf6, 5 Nc3 Nc6 is called the Boleslavski variation

- the Sveshnikov is also known as the Lasker-Pelikan

- the Kan variation is also known as the Paulsen

-All the Be2 variations dont have a general name, except for in the classical, where it has to be followed by a black e5 as otherwise it transpose to another variation (eg e6 is a scheveningen).
-Officially the Pelikan was the variation with 1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 d6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4, Nf6, 5 Nc3 e5, but nowadays it usually refers to the subvariation without b5 but with Be6. All others are usually (though on a nitpick level incorrect) called the Sveshnikov
-Not sure about that one, I thought the Paulsen was with 4 Nc6 which uis the same as the Taimanov,but Mnb can prolly give you a complete answer.
Quote:
White variations:

- the Sozin aka as the Fischer Attack, starts with 6 Bc4 and mostly involves K-side castling

- the Fischer-Sozin with Q-side castling becomes the Velimirovic

- against the Dragon, the Velimirovic is called the Yugoslav Attack

- the Velimirovic-Yugoslav can be played against the Dragon, Najdorf, Scheveningen and Classical

- roughly speaking, the English Attack is the Velimirovic-Yugoslav without 6 c4

-Sozin is after 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 and now either a6/e6/Nc6 Bc4. The variation with 5 .. a6 6 Bc4 is also known as the Fischer attack, while the variation after 5 .. Nc6 6 Bc4 and white not playing Qe2 later is aka the classical Sozin. You are entirely right on both involving kingside castling.
-2nd point is entirely correct.
-Yes, but keep in mind that the setup against the dragon is structurally different in nature. In the dragon you'd play Be3, Qd2 and H-bomb the kingside. With the Velimirovic the queen goes to e2. It is also not the best way to play against a Sozin Najdorf set-up due to black not playing Nc6 (often Nd7-c5 gets nasty).
-Yes that is basically true, though there will be many now starting yelling about the differences Wink

I'd suggest not getting into the Velimirovic attack yet, as it is very complex and only really good against the classical sicilian. The classical Sozin (or Fischer attack) is easier to play and is far more akin to e4-e5 openings (especially Italian main lines, but also the scotch in some variations). Against the dragon the Yugoslav is indeed very good and even though those variations count for many posts on this forum about a move 25 deviation it is quite easily understood in conceptual terms (As Fischer described it "playing against the dragon is a simple question of prying open the king's rook file and then sac, sac ... mate!").
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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mad_knight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #16 - 09/24/05 at 12:19:46
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I must admit when first I got acquainted with the Open Sicilian nomenclature, I got quite confused. Undecided  After some study I came to the following conclusions, which I hope are correct

Black defences:

- the Classical variation in the Dragon, Najdorf and Scheveningen begins with 6 Be2.  However, 6 Be2 in the Classical Variation which arises after 1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 d6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4, Nf6, 5 Nc3 Nc6 is called the Boleslavski variation

- the Sveshnikov is also known as the Lasker-Pelikan

- the Kan variation is also known as the Paulsen

White variations:

- the Sozin aka as the Fischer Attack, starts with 6 Bc4 and mostly involves K-side castling

- the Fischer-Sozin with Q-side castling becomes the Velimirovic

- against the Dragon, the Velimirovic is called the Yugoslav Attack

- the Velimirovic-Yugoslav can be played against the Dragon, Najdorf, Scheveningen and Classical

- roughly speaking, the English Attack is the Velimirovic-Yugoslav without 6 c4

That's all for now Grin  Any comments?!



  

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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #15 - 09/24/05 at 11:57:08
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Smyslov, Well in a general sense the Dragon is a subset of this whole big umbrella called the open sicilian right?? So not too off topic i suppose....

My remarks on the English attack against the dragon was actually directed at mad_knight's wanting to play it on all systems starting with 2....d6. So the modern dragon came to mind. (if its still called that now). So if thats the case then that type of K-side setup would be called Yugoslav attack Be3, f3, 0-0-0, g4, h4. etc.

Yep..I checked it out. There is a Bc4 move in the Yugoslav......a refinement over the old 0-0-0 to prevent d5 by black. see Fischer-Larsen Portoroz 1958. I'm admittedly not aware of any other refinements which have come along the way, or the suggested moves that you've put up. (I'm that outdated in theory)

Hope this clarifies things. Correct me if there is anything wrong that i put up. (backdatedness & old rusty brains Tongue)
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #14 - 09/24/05 at 11:10:18
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Woofwoof,


This is already beginning to sound like it belongs in the Dragon forum, but as long as it's here...

The f3 and g4 idea that is common in the English attack can transpose into the Yugoslav, but White still has numerous options besides moving his Bishop to c4.  The g4, Rg1 idea has been highly touted, as has g4, h4 without committing the Bishop to c4.  Yet only moving the B to c4 is a Yugoslav. 

I don't think the other lines should be (or in fact are) called the English Attack in the Dragon.  In fact, I thought that an early h4 was called the St. George Attack.  It got this name not because St. George is the Patron Saint of England, but because St. George is most famous for slaying the Dragon!
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #13 - 09/23/05 at 12:26:00
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Yes, the Richter Rauzer setup against the dragon is a common white plan to exchange off the dragon bishop.

The so called Engilsh attack against the Dragon would lead to the Yugoslav attack - hv pivot on f3 to push g4&h4. Open up the h file for your rooks etc & ultimately hv a rook sac later. It bears a lot of ideas in common with the saemisch against the KID imo -

  

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mad_knight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #12 - 09/23/05 at 11:50:44
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Good point, woofwoof, the Schevy seems to be a tough nut to crack indeed. Apparently, you can also play the Velimirovic Attack against the Classical, and the Richter-Rauzer Attack against the Dragon seems to have a similar piece setup as well.  One step further and I'll be playing the English attack against all variations after 2...d6, which was an alternative to Bc4 I was considering anyway, remember?  Fascinating! Grin
  

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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #11 - 09/23/05 at 10:40:26
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@mad_knight- I have the original 1972 Faber version in descriptive notation bought in 1984!!. Thanks very much for offering assistance.

On Bc4 against the schevy - I personally prefer to go for the Velimirovic rather than play a 'normal' Sozin/Fischer attack. The opposite side castling by both White & Black offers white a chance of a good pawn storm on the K-side. I wont say that this is in anyway superior to the normal Sozin....Just a matter of preference or love for something more active given that the schevy is usually more solid compared to the Najdorf.
  

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mad_knight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #10 - 09/22/05 at 11:09:52
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Mnb

1. you're too modest, 1800 is way above my level!
2. when I mentioned your preference for the positional approach, I was merely thinking of your recommendation for the Sveshnikov and my preference for the main line.

By the way, your posts on transpositional possibilities after 1 ...e5 in a thread on the Petrov (started by Ambitious Amateur) were most helpful.  So I'll keep watching your posts Grin

woofwoof,

yes, they're asking crazy prices for Fischer's My 60 Memorable Games.  Luckily, there's a recent French edition I just bought new for 27 EUR, 10 times less than the most expensive English version on Amazon.com Wink If you're interested, I can give you the particulars.

Cheers
  

Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale her infinite variety - William Shakespeare
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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #9 - 09/22/05 at 08:39:10
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'My 60 memorable games' by Fischer is a good book with quite a no. of Bc4 lines in it as Willempie mentioned. The only problem is getting hold of one if you dont have it....cos its already out of print.

Try amazon.com or abebooks.com to search it out.  The lousy thing about this is that you may be able to find it, but it jus costs a huge bomb since its something of a collectors' item already! Tongue

imo if you are to possess just 1 book on chess in your whole life, this is it.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #8 - 09/21/05 at 21:12:09
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@ Mad Knight

"But you are obviously playing at a higher level than me, witness your preference for the positional approach"
1. Thanks for this flattering comment, but my Dutch ELO has never been higher than 1880.
2. Preference for the positional approach? I have played the Danish, Kings, Morra, Albins and Jänisch Schliemann gambits!

One remark: against the Scheveningen 6.Be3 is also in tune with your repertoire, while 6.g4 is not only aggressive, but according to current theory also very dangerous for Black.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #7 - 09/21/05 at 14:01:56
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Nice to see, someone finally taking me seriously. Grin

Golubev's book on the Sozin is very good, but is a bit "analytical" (except the excellent introduction which gives very good explanations), so it is better as a reference (when you analyse your games) than as a learning tool. Best way to get up to speed is to check some annotated games by some good players. Fischer (in his 60 games book), Short (also in his match against Kasparov), the aforementioned Golubev, Topalov and Emms all have played these variations so there should be plenty to find.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #6 - 09/21/05 at 11:59:03
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Willempie, woofwoof,

Thank you both for your comments, which strengthen my belief I'm on the right track here.  Actually, Willempie was one of those who in another thread convinced me not to get bogged down with theory too much at my level, for which I'll be eternally grateful to him  Smiley

Mnb

I really appreciate it you took the time to come up with such detailed recommendations. But you are obviously playing at a higher level than me, witness your preference for the positional approach and the avoidance of variations that haven't done well in serious competitve play.  You're right to say some of the Bc4 lines, notably in the Scheveningen, are not the best for White, and Mednis concedes this as well. But I just happen to like them, they're in tune with the rest of my repertoire, which I'd label aggressive "un poco ma non troppo" (hence my doubts about the English Attack), and at my level I won't have to worry too much about their theoretical standing, I think.  So I'm going to try out these lines in actual play and see what happens.  And maybe I'll come back running to you if I get beaten too often! Grin
  

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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #5 - 09/21/05 at 11:02:52
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Quote:
How can you play Ndb5 against the Kan where Black played a6 on move 4?


Oooopps!!! Sorry about that. Very careless of me. Thanks for pointing it out Arkhein.  Embarrassed

I was actually referring to those early e5 lines like the Sveshnikov/Pelikan & other what nots type of systems. So after 4...e5, Ndb5 would be the best move imo.

Also against this sicilian setup (whatever its called)
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 e6  5.Ndb5!
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #4 - 09/21/05 at 10:21:46
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Quote:
The only other sysytem you need to learn would be the Ndb5 against the Kan/Paulsen.


How can you play Ndb5 against the Kan where Black played a6 on move 4? There are somes different way to play against a pure Kan (2..e6, 4..a6, generally without Nc6, or only when it's the best move or better than Nbd7), like a maroczy bind against the Hedgehog, or playing like a normal open sicilian. The Kan is very flexible and solid, I play it with Black, but I don't know what I would recommand for White, it depend of your style I think.

But I like the Fischer/Sozin attack against the Najdorf/classical sicilian, where Golubev's book is excellent.
  
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