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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open Sicilian for the White amateur? (Read 17093 times)
woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #63 - 10/12/05 at 22:56:20
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LOL! hope you know better now.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #62 - 10/12/05 at 09:43:46
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Reminds me of one of my first annotated games, which I saw when I was cleaning up the house (I was white).
1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6 ? "This must be a very bad move, no development"  Grin
  

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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #61 - 10/11/05 at 11:35:41
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I still dont understand the fuss. If you are going to delay Nc6 so say 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 g6 then still after Bc4, Be3, f3 (not necessarily in that order) you get into yugoslav dragon territory. If you then keep insisting on not playing Nc6 as black I think you are basically obliged to flick in a6 at some point thus returning to my original post. I'll admit I misunderstood BK's question, but I think it doesnt make a practical difference.


Well....yeah! thats correct too, even if you used a very extreme example to illustrate it. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
@woofwoof, that was exactly my point about g6-a6 setups, they tend to work only with "lesser" lines for white eg 6 h3, which I think everyone will agree doesnt threaten the survival of the Najdorf. I have won quite some games by move-ordering people out of the Najdorf into the dragon, without them realising that a6 isnt really what is called for when you get H-bombed in the Yugo. Eg games against Najdorf afficionados often start 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 (supposedly best against the closed) 3 Nf3 d6 4 d4 cxd4 5 Nxd4 and now they discover they have to go into the dragon or the classical, which they are far less familiar with and especially in the dragon they tend to play a6 at some point. I think that a6-move is probably something genetic with Najdorf players Grin


Ah! i see now! thanks for clarifying. I thought when you wrote 'variations' earlier you were refering to things like Najdorf, Boleslavsky, Dragon etc etc variations of the sicilian rather than individual lines.

You maybe right abt that genetic bit with Najdorf players. It has also crept into my KID! I somehow feel very insecure without a6 such that I tend to throw it in even in lines where it is not the norm to play it or whenever I get a chance! Grin lol.

Thanks also for sharing abt the 2.Nc3 bit. I think I need to look at these transpositional subtleties so that I dont get stuck in some kind of dragon.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #60 - 10/11/05 at 08:14:07
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Well the advantage for me is that the closed sicilian is very popular and I have played it myself a lot, which a lot of players here remember. So when they see 2 Nc3 they automatically assume a closed sicilian.

Btw players like Short and Timman often make use of these transpositional tricks. As an example check Timman-Polugayevsky Amsterdam 1981 in which Timman move-ordered Polu into a sub-optimal closed.
1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Nf3 e6 4 g3 Nf6 5 Bg2 d6 6 0-0 and now 6 .. g6 (best in the closed) isnt so good as white can transpose to an open sicilian where black has a weird mix of schevy and dragon which doesnt look too good. Polu played Be7 and got into a closed, got cramped and lost. Keep in mind with these tricks that it helps to know your closed stuff as well.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #59 - 10/11/05 at 07:51:20
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Willempie,

Thanks for clarifying things, your latest post really helps me!  I agree with your move order finesses, and I should keep them in mind in case I ever run into them.

I haven't noticed too much subtlety by players in my area when it comes to these nuances and reading these posts are certainly helping me to see more opportunities for me to take advantage of them myself!
  
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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #58 - 10/11/05 at 04:07:08
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I still dont understand the fuss. If you are going to delay Nc6 so say 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 g6 then still after Bc4, Be3, f3 (not necessarily in that order) you get into yugoslav dragon territory. If you then keep insisting on not playing Nc6 as black I think you are basically obliged to flick in a6 at some point thus returning to my original post. I'll admit I misunderstood BK's question, but I think it doesnt make a practical difference.

@woofwoof, that was exactly my point about g6-a6 setups, they tend to work only with "lesser" lines for white eg 6 h3, which I think everyone will agree doesnt threaten the survival of the Najdorf. I have won quite some games by move-ordering people out of the Najdorf into the dragon, without them realising that a6 isnt really what is called for when you get H-bombed in the Yugo. Eg games against Najdorf afficionados often start 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 (supposedly best against the closed) 3 Nf3 d6 4 d4 cxd4 5 Nxd4 and now they discover they have to go into the dragon or the classical, which they are far less familiar with and especially in the dragon they tend to play a6 at some point. I think that a6-move is probably something genetic with Najdorf players Grin
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #57 - 10/11/05 at 01:13:44
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Woofwoof,

I agree completely that I am missing some key points in this thread.  Your comments about playing ...g6 only after a4 or h3 makes perfect sense.  In fact, taken completely on their own, you messages usually make great sense.  I'm confused over all the other comments that are suggesting several different variations as if they are the same thing.

Perhaps I should just follow one or two writers and try to make sense of what they are suggesting.  Trying to make a single narrative from all these crossing ideas is making my head hurt.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #56 - 10/11/05 at 00:33:23
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it seems with the early a6 one might be able to playin chinese dragon fashion with Rb8 and b5. This is the dragon i would play if i ever take it up.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #55 - 10/11/05 at 00:17:41
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You may have missed the point here a little, smyslov .Dragondorf or whatever you want to call it is never meant to be a main line system on its own against white. Black is better off  playing the Najdorf proper.

However only in those exceptions where white essays moves like 6.a4, & 6.h3 then the best options recommended are to transpose into a schevy or a dragon. or perhaps even in the 6.f4 systems.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #54 - 10/11/05 at 00:03:08
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BK,

You were right all along.  The first time ...a6 creeped into the move order was with Willempie's post and I thought I had missed something.  I'm sorry for my confusion on this.

Woofwoof, I will still disagree that the Najdorf-Dragon is a dangerous weapon.  There are of course many interesting variations.  After all, Black has only lost a tempo and White needs to prove that it's important.  But The burden is on Black to prove his move order is more than merely a confusion of two distinct systems.

I'm not sure that this really belongs in this thread or the Dragon thread, but since it's here, let's deal with it.  But remember, there's already a thread devoted to the "dragondorf" or whatever it's being called.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #53 - 10/10/05 at 18:17:58
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my bad i didnt realise we had included an early a6
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #52 - 10/10/05 at 13:45:14
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Oops! sorry.  For 6.a4, i'd rather respond 6....Nc6!? instead of 6...e6.
  

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woofwoof
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #51 - 10/10/05 at 12:06:54
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Willempie & Smyslov,

BK's question might be a bit vague here, but my impression was his query might be referring to  the following:

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 g6
then 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4

In the case of 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6 6 Bc4 g6 my query would be: why on earth would black want to venture 6...g6 here ??? We are already on the Najdorf Bc4 line already. So the only logical move by black here is 6...e6. However if black is so insistant on doing so, then playing 7.f3 & steering it into a Yugoslav as mentioned is best. I agree this much.

Quote:
Generally speaking a6 and g6 dont combine well in the sicilian, especially in the sharper variations.


Which Variations? Maybe in the dragon proper but definitely not from dragons springing from the Najdorf:
1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6

now:
1) 6.h3 g6
2) 6.a4 g6
are good responses for black.

the following line 6.f4 Qc7 7.a4 g6  isnt bad for black either.

Tho personally i'd rather  play 6...e6  for the 1st 2 & play 6...e5 against 6.f4.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #50 - 10/10/05 at 09:53:32
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Willempie and all,

I should have noticed the inclusion of ...a6.  Clearly, White is very happy to see Black waste a move in the Dragon with ...a6 and has no real fears from a theoretical perspective.  There are of course practical hurdles to jump, but White simply must have an advantage when Black mixes systems like this.  I've only played against ...a6 in blitz and have an overwhelming score despite being primarily a "left-handed" player as White.  (That's a reference to Petrosian's playing d-pawn, c4, and Nf3 openings.)
  
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Willempie
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #49 - 10/10/05 at 02:51:50
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Quote:
thanks but what about the variation wher black delays Nc6 in preferance for an inmediate g6? does it still apply?

I suppose you mean 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6 6 Bc4 g6?
I wouldnt exactly call this much of a headache for white. After 7 f3 you can head for a yugo attack where black has swapped his handy Nc6 move in for a dubious (in the yugo main line) a6. Generally speaking a6 and g6 dont combine well in the sicilian, especially in the sharper variations.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #48 - 10/10/05 at 00:34:40
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Bc4 does not prevent the accelerated dragon or make it bad for black like in the case of the classical dragon. its strategy if used against the accelerated dragon is different - to restrain or delay black's d5 break.

The best way (i feel) against the accelerated dragon would be the yugoslav attack with a Bc4 after Qd2 (to make way for 0-0-0). Storm kingside after castling q-side.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #47 - 10/09/05 at 21:48:12
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BK,

Take a look at the thread on the Move Order in the  Accelerated Dragon for some information that may be helpful to you there.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #46 - 10/09/05 at 18:08:59
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thanks but what about the variation wher black delays Nc6 in preferance for an inmediate g6? does it still apply?
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #45 - 10/07/05 at 20:21:43
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BK, then by all means learn how to play it (& against it). imo its better than the Bg5 Najdorf or the Richter Rauzers in the sense that its easier to understand, far less theoretical & it offers a quite a fair bit of aggression as well.
  

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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #44 - 10/07/05 at 18:26:36
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wow thank you very much as well as i am not a big fan of the yugoslav but like this Bc4 stuff
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #43 - 10/07/05 at 12:11:15
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Thanks Willempie for offering the explanation. I simply couldnt remember the reason other than 6.Bc4 g6 is bad for black. Grin Roll Eyes Grin
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #42 - 10/07/05 at 07:28:13
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It disallows the dragon from a classical move-order, which is available after moves like 6 Be2. Eg
1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Nc6 6 Bc4 and now 6 .. g6 is not good. I am typing from memory but I thought 7 Nxc6 bxc6 8 e5 gets black into real trouble.
  

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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #41 - 10/06/05 at 08:45:36
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Quote:
I think that Bc4 is a good commom system that works against a no. of Sicilians - Najdorf, Classical & Scheveningen + it disallows the Dragon & Boleslavsky effectively.


Hiowdoes 6.Bc4 dissalow the dragon?
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #40 - 10/06/05 at 08:43:32
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heh i havent unzipped it yet but will do so soon
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #39 - 10/06/05 at 00:32:31
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BK,
Does that site include Fischer's analysis?  Without the analysis it's worth about what you pay for.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #38 - 10/05/05 at 23:50:44
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Quote:
Mnb





woofwoof,

yes, they're asking crazy prices for Fischer's My 60 Memorable Games.  Luckily, there's a recent French edition I just bought new for 27 EUR, 10 times less than the most expensive English version on Amazon.com Wink If you're interested, I can give you the particulars.

Cheers


you know ya all can just down load em from chessopolis for free in PGN format. No money ivloved and harley anytime to download!
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #37 - 09/27/05 at 11:21:47
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Smyslov Fan,

Correction, Black DID vary with d5 a number of times,  but with correct play White held the upper hand...

woofwoof,

Thank you for sharing your experience with me!

I do have John Emms' Starting Out:  the Sicilian and I think it's a marvellous book.  It's the first book that helped me through the apparent jungle of variations in the Open Sicilian and made sense of them.  I think the Starting Out formula works very well for everyone who wants to learn a new opening and just stick to the essentials to start with.  In fact, I have a Starting Out for most of the openings I play and they all were- and still are- very helpful!

Cheers
  

Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale her infinite variety - William Shakespeare
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #36 - 09/27/05 at 10:51:33
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Mad_knight, I can see that you are really full of the fire of enthusiasm at the moment. Good! keep it up & enjoy yourself in the process.

As you get on feeling your way round the various sicilians, i need to emphasise the need to understand the basic tactical & strategical goals for both white & black in each system. This is far more important than memorising tonnes of lines & variations. Line & variations will get obsolete or refuted with time but the basics will always remain, & all the variations have their roots in the basics. I would suggest that you get a good simple book which explains in a simple way all the basics of the sicilian. The Starting Out: The Sicilian by John Emms seems to have good reviews & discusses all the various popular Sicilian systems-a good simple & general book.  Daniel King's Winning with the Najdorf is also an excellant book which explains the Najdorf more in words rather than lines;just that Im not sure if you would like a 'specialist' type of book right now.

My only regret was that I only realised this truth 20 yrs after my retirement from competitive chess. I never got very far with memorisation of lines, but I feel i'm playing much better chess at present, after understanding  the ideas of the openings I play even tho severely backdated on opening theory!



  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #35 - 09/27/05 at 10:13:26
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Hi Smyslov Fan,

Good question, I'll try and find out what's the matter.

On your earlier remark re. the Accelerated Dragon, I went to the Dragon forum and got a bit taken aback:  7 web pages to wade through to find something about the Accelerated... Can I maybe refer you to the site
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessopening?eco=B35 so you see what type of move order I use in playing the Accelerated to transpose to a normal Dragon, from which position I continue with the Yugoslav Attack?  As far as I could verify, at no time was Black able to vary with d5.

Hi Willempie,

Thanks for those encourageing comments!

Cheers
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #34 - 09/27/05 at 09:49:41
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Well to be fair, I think spending more than an hour on the O'Kelly is overly generous. I cant imagine any reasonable looking move being bad for white. I believe I have never faced it and probably wont for some years to come.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #33 - 09/27/05 at 09:36:44
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Mad_knight,

Thanks for mentioning chesslab.com!  I haven't heard of that site before.  Regarding the stats.... considering ....e6 and Nc6 followed by ...e6 are so transpositional it's weird to see such a huge disparity between the stats.  I wonder what's going on.  Do you have any explanation for that?
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #32 - 09/27/05 at 09:29:31
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Oh no, not the Alapin again! Remember, I stopped playing the Morra because I got disgusted with the Alapin. Angry  And why bother to learn what is really another opening that's got nothing to do with the Open, just to counter some Mickey Mouse opening that you'll probably meet only once in a blue moon!?

I'm sorry, but I'd rather try to trap my opponent into something I KNOW, and 3 Nc3 just seems to do the trick. Grin  I did a little analysis on chesslab.com and after 1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 a6, 3 Nc3 came up with the following stats (White wins/Black wins/Draw):

3...e6 (Kan): 36/31/33
3...d6 (Najdorf): 36/32/32
3...Nc6, 4 d4 cxd4, 5 Nxd4 e6 (Taimanov): 40/27/33
3...Nc6, 4 d4 cxd4, 5 Nxd4 e5, 6 Nf5 (?!): 76/17/7 (only 17 games in this variation)

Based on these stats, I'd be ready to put my money on this, not you? Wink

Cheers

PS:  I'll have a look at the specific threads re the Accelerated Dragon, more specifically re the threat of a quick d5 by Black
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #31 - 09/27/05 at 00:25:17
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Just in case some of you don't know, there are active threads on the ...e5 variation that Willempie mentions and also on the Accelerated Dragon that Mad_knight mentions in their respective forae.
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #30 - 09/26/05 at 16:26:35
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When playing 1e4 c5 2Nf3 e6 3Nc3 you avoid a couple of tricky sidelines. For example some cult lines like 4 .. Qb6 and the pin variation (1e4 c5 2Nf3 e6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Bb4). Objectively they are probably not very good, but you will always see that you get such a line against the local expert, which is usually not good news. It does indeed bar any Maroczy bind in the Kan or Taimanov, but I have also never played those, it looks a bit unnatural to me.
Against 2.. d6 3 Nc3's main use is to confuse your opponent. Eg if he is a Najdorf player he may hate the closed or setups with Bb5 so he may choose a move which doesnt get him a Najdorf (Nc6 for example). So it is purely psychological.
Also against 2 .. Nf6 (Nimzowitsch) it is quite ok, though you will probably face that line once every 5 years.
I wouldnt recommend it against other 2nd moves though (which is why you shouldnt play Nc3 at the 2nd move). The O'Kelly is one of the few openings where white often switches to 3 c3 in order to play a c3 sicilian a tempo up.
BtW I'd warn against Nc3 setup against the accelerated dragon. Usually black is able to push through d5 in one go despite a bishop on c4.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #29 - 09/26/05 at 14:15:19
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Doesn't it also preclude you from playing the Maroczy bind in variations such as the Taimanov, Accelerated Dragon or Kan?  It wouldn't bother me since I don't like to play the bind anyway.  In the Accelerated Dragon, for example, I transpose to the normal Dragon via the "Modern Variation with Bc4" (ECO B35) and in the 2 other variations mentioned I play Nc3 anyway.

Could you give me some examples of annoying sidelines I'd avoid with 3 Nc3? You mentioned only after 2 ...d6 or 2 ...e6, but what about after 2 ...Nf6 (Nimzowitsch)? Or hoping to transpose to the Najdorf or Taimanov after 2 ...a6 (O'Kelly)?  Any other examples?

Cheers
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #28 - 09/26/05 at 09:32:32
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Yeah, but it is not such a good idea to play it 2nd move, only if you also play the closed sicilian or the Grandprix. I use it very often because I used to play the closed and I like to annoy those Najdorf players.

Eg 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Nf3 and now black has the option of going for an accelerated dragon without having to worry about the best line for white or he probably can even play 3 .. e5. In short only do it on move 3 and only after 2 .. e6 or 2 .. d6.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #27 - 09/26/05 at 08:51:03
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Willempie is exactly right about playing Nc3 before d4!  This has a very high pedigree.  Another non-standard move order that is especially tricky was used by Fischer in the Spassky return match: 

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 (tho I don't think Spassky actually played 2...e6.) 3.Nge2!? and only on the fourth move did he play d4.

This gives White the "threat" of playing the GPA and other closed Sicilians while leaving open transpositions to the standard Open Sicilian.
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #26 - 09/26/05 at 08:11:27
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One last tip, the experts book is very good, though I suspect that the some of the lines are a bit too theoretical for you. For example the Keres attack and Bg5 Najdorf are very difficult to just play.
On the other hand some of the lines against certain "cult" variations are very easy to pick up. I dont know if you play at a chessclub but very often there are certain players who always play the same minor opening variation. Eg we have 2 guys here one of which always plays a Kalashnikov and the other an accelerated dragon. Since I got the book I got 2/2 against them.
Another theory-saving trick is to play 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 Nc3 followed by 4 d4. This avoids all kinds of weird sidelines, which in itself arent that good but are very annoying when you have never seen them before. It is also possible against 2 .. d6, though there you will only win some time.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #25 - 09/25/05 at 11:35:29
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Mad_knight,

It's great that you're having fun!  The Velimirovic isn't exactly my favorite line as White either.
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #24 - 09/25/05 at 09:41:19
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Smyslov Fan

But I AM having fun playing the way I do!  And I HAVE done some research on the Velimirovic and did not like it...  To me, it's better to first become good in what you like and understand, and only then go for the more complex stuff, which I'll probably appreciate much more then.  I'll therefore keep your advice in mind to play the Velemirovic in blitz games... when I'm ready for it. Wink

Mnb, Willempie, woofwoof

thanks for these further clarifications, which are all very helpful. Smiley

Inn2,

I'm trying to stick to main lines as well, with the added vaue of a "common denominator" such as Bc4 and Nb5, respectively, to make things easier.  There's no such "common denominator" in the lines recommended by the "Experts vs the Sicilian', I'm afraid. Undecided

Cheers
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #23 - 09/25/05 at 01:39:21
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I would say its actually not a bad idea to learn the main main lines, like the repertoire in Experts v. Sicilian.

Its not as difficult as you would imagine, as main line moves tend to be more natural and easy to remember. In chess the most natural moves also tend to be the strongest! Furthermore, one does not need to learn many sidelines, as Black is splattered if he deviates. If you know your main lines well, you can figure out the "punishment" easily OTB (which frequently means you play out the move you would have played had he played the main line).  Grin
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #22 - 09/25/05 at 00:27:56
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Quote:
English Attack:  could we perhaps say that it is much like a Yugoslav without 6 Bc4 thrown in?! (and not "6 c4" as in my text Angry)


You wont be able to throw in a Bc4 in the English attack because for eg in the Najdorf....6.Be3 e5 7Nb3, with the Kt already on b3 your bishop on c4 has no way to retreat & still maintain control of the c4-f7 diagonal after black replies b5. So the forced retreat to d3 or e2 is just a waste of tempo.

The white k-side piece set up for the English & Yugoslav are similar. In the Yugoslav Bc4 can be  played on the 9th move after 8.Qd2 as I mentioned earlier. On the black side  in the English attack there is no g6, but in the Yugoslav there is g6 (as pointed out by willempie) Hence the Yugoslav would draw more blood than the English since the g6 pawn becomes a target & white's eventual exchange of his h pawn for the g6 pawn opens up the h file for the rooks. Once this is successful, as Fischer says "sac, sac, mate!"
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #21 - 09/24/05 at 17:35:38
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Quote:
Hi Willempie,

"With the Velimirovic the queen goes to e2"
Oops, I overlooked that one! Thanks for pointing this out to me.

English Attack:  could we perhaps say that it is much like a Yugoslav without 6 Bc4 thrown in?! (and not "6 c4" as in my text Angry)

Thanks for pointing out the similarities of the Fischer-Sozin with certain e4-e5 openings, as well as recommending the Yugoslav against the Dragon.  It so happens I play the Italian after 1 ...e5 and the 150 Attack against the Pirc-Modern, so the recommend lines fit perfectly with the rest of my repertoire. Grin

Which is also one more reason to stay out of the Velimirovic for the moment, the other being "don't run before you can walk", right?

Cheers!

Main difference between the english attack and the yugo is the g6 move. So imho the yugo attack has much more in common with those attacks against the pirc and the likes.
The similarities with the Italian are there. I played the italian from like 12 and the Sozin/Fischer setup came very natural, only later I found out it was theory. There are 2 differences with regards to tactics. In the sicilian black will block the bishop with e6, but on the other hand you've got tactics like Nd5 (sometimes even Nf5), which would be stupid in the italian.
So in short, use the Fischer book it will learn you a lot more than I or others could do, especially on explaining the ideas.

Ps Fischer played the Italian a lot in his youth, so there you've got another idea about the similarities.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #20 - 09/24/05 at 15:32:00
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@Madknight
Your nomenclature is a bit confusing, so here is a better one. Basically you must look at Black's 2nd and 5th move.
2...d6/5...g6 Dragon
Subvariations: Classical 6.Be2, Löwenfisj 6.f4, Jugoslav Attack 6.f3/7.Be3/8.Qd2 and others.

2...d6/5...a6 Najdorf
English Attack 6.f3/7.Be3, Pseudo-Sozin 6.Bc4, Classical 6.Be2 etc.

2...d6/5...e6 Scheveningen
Keres Attack 6.g4, Classical 6.Be2, English Attack 6.Be3/7.f3 etc.

2...d6/5...Nc6
Richter-Rauser 6.Bg5, Velimirovic Attack 6.Bc4/7.Bb3/8.Be3/9.Qe2, Boleslavski 6.Be2 e5.

2...Nc6/5...e5 Svesjnikov, sometimes Lasker-Pelikann.
2...Nc6/4...g6 Accelerated Dragon.
2...Nc6/4...e5 Löwenthal and Kalasjnikov.
2...e6/4...a6, 2...e6/4...Nc6 Paulsen/Taimanov/Kan.

Of course there are several transpositions possible yet.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #19 - 09/24/05 at 15:10:23
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I love the name of this thread, Sicilian for the White Amateur.  An amateur plays for the love of the game, and so anything that you do that will fuel this love has to be good.  With that in mind, if you like complicated messes, go for them! 

The Velimirovic is indeed a mess, especially for novices, but if you're playing for the love of the game, then it's worth at least a bit of research to find out what it's about.   The advice given in another thread that you should play some games in blitz in these variations still holds true here.  Just remember to have fun!
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #18 - 09/24/05 at 15:08:28
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Hi Willempie,

"With the Velimirovic the queen goes to e2"
Oops, I overlooked that one! Thanks for pointing this out to me.

English Attack:  could we perhaps say that it is much like a Yugoslav without 6 Bc4 thrown in?! (and not "6 c4" as in my text Angry)

Thanks for pointing out the similarities of the Fischer-Sozin with certain e4-e5 openings, as well as recommending the Yugoslav against the Dragon.  It so happens I play the Italian after 1 ...e5 and the 150 Attack against the Pirc-Modern, so the recommend lines fit perfectly with the rest of my repertoire. Grin

Which is also one more reason to stay out of the Velimirovic for the moment, the other being "don't run before you can walk", right?

Cheers!
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #17 - 09/24/05 at 13:04:41
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I'll give some comments which may be helpfull
Quote:
I must admit when first I got acquainted with the Open Sicilian nomenclature, I got quite confused. Undecided  After some study I came to the following conclusions, which I hope are correct

Black defences:

- the Classical variation in the Dragon, Najdorf and Scheveningen begins with 6 Be2.  However, 6 Be2 in the Classical Variation which arises after 1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 d6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4, Nf6, 5 Nc3 Nc6 is called the Boleslavski variation

- the Sveshnikov is also known as the Lasker-Pelikan

- the Kan variation is also known as the Paulsen

-All the Be2 variations dont have a general name, except for in the classical, where it has to be followed by a black e5 as otherwise it transpose to another variation (eg e6 is a scheveningen).
-Officially the Pelikan was the variation with 1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 d6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4, Nf6, 5 Nc3 e5, but nowadays it usually refers to the subvariation without b5 but with Be6. All others are usually (though on a nitpick level incorrect) called the Sveshnikov
-Not sure about that one, I thought the Paulsen was with 4 Nc6 which uis the same as the Taimanov,but Mnb can prolly give you a complete answer.
Quote:
White variations:

- the Sozin aka as the Fischer Attack, starts with 6 Bc4 and mostly involves K-side castling

- the Fischer-Sozin with Q-side castling becomes the Velimirovic

- against the Dragon, the Velimirovic is called the Yugoslav Attack

- the Velimirovic-Yugoslav can be played against the Dragon, Najdorf, Scheveningen and Classical

- roughly speaking, the English Attack is the Velimirovic-Yugoslav without 6 c4

-Sozin is after 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 and now either a6/e6/Nc6 Bc4. The variation with 5 .. a6 6 Bc4 is also known as the Fischer attack, while the variation after 5 .. Nc6 6 Bc4 and white not playing Qe2 later is aka the classical Sozin. You are entirely right on both involving kingside castling.
-2nd point is entirely correct.
-Yes, but keep in mind that the setup against the dragon is structurally different in nature. In the dragon you'd play Be3, Qd2 and H-bomb the kingside. With the Velimirovic the queen goes to e2. It is also not the best way to play against a Sozin Najdorf set-up due to black not playing Nc6 (often Nd7-c5 gets nasty).
-Yes that is basically true, though there will be many now starting yelling about the differences Wink

I'd suggest not getting into the Velimirovic attack yet, as it is very complex and only really good against the classical sicilian. The classical Sozin (or Fischer attack) is easier to play and is far more akin to e4-e5 openings (especially Italian main lines, but also the scotch in some variations). Against the dragon the Yugoslav is indeed very good and even though those variations count for many posts on this forum about a move 25 deviation it is quite easily understood in conceptual terms (As Fischer described it "playing against the dragon is a simple question of prying open the king's rook file and then sac, sac ... mate!").
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #16 - 09/24/05 at 12:19:46
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I must admit when first I got acquainted with the Open Sicilian nomenclature, I got quite confused. Undecided  After some study I came to the following conclusions, which I hope are correct

Black defences:

- the Classical variation in the Dragon, Najdorf and Scheveningen begins with 6 Be2.  However, 6 Be2 in the Classical Variation which arises after 1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 d6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4, Nf6, 5 Nc3 Nc6 is called the Boleslavski variation

- the Sveshnikov is also known as the Lasker-Pelikan

- the Kan variation is also known as the Paulsen

White variations:

- the Sozin aka as the Fischer Attack, starts with 6 Bc4 and mostly involves K-side castling

- the Fischer-Sozin with Q-side castling becomes the Velimirovic

- against the Dragon, the Velimirovic is called the Yugoslav Attack

- the Velimirovic-Yugoslav can be played against the Dragon, Najdorf, Scheveningen and Classical

- roughly speaking, the English Attack is the Velimirovic-Yugoslav without 6 c4

That's all for now Grin  Any comments?!



  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #15 - 09/24/05 at 11:57:08
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Smyslov, Well in a general sense the Dragon is a subset of this whole big umbrella called the open sicilian right?? So not too off topic i suppose....

My remarks on the English attack against the dragon was actually directed at mad_knight's wanting to play it on all systems starting with 2....d6. So the modern dragon came to mind. (if its still called that now). So if thats the case then that type of K-side setup would be called Yugoslav attack Be3, f3, 0-0-0, g4, h4. etc.

Yep..I checked it out. There is a Bc4 move in the Yugoslav......a refinement over the old 0-0-0 to prevent d5 by black. see Fischer-Larsen Portoroz 1958. I'm admittedly not aware of any other refinements which have come along the way, or the suggested moves that you've put up. (I'm that outdated in theory)

Hope this clarifies things. Correct me if there is anything wrong that i put up. (backdatedness & old rusty brains Tongue)
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #14 - 09/24/05 at 11:10:18
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Woofwoof,


This is already beginning to sound like it belongs in the Dragon forum, but as long as it's here...

The f3 and g4 idea that is common in the English attack can transpose into the Yugoslav, but White still has numerous options besides moving his Bishop to c4.  The g4, Rg1 idea has been highly touted, as has g4, h4 without committing the Bishop to c4.  Yet only moving the B to c4 is a Yugoslav. 

I don't think the other lines should be (or in fact are) called the English Attack in the Dragon.  In fact, I thought that an early h4 was called the St. George Attack.  It got this name not because St. George is the Patron Saint of England, but because St. George is most famous for slaying the Dragon!
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #13 - 09/23/05 at 12:26:00
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Yes, the Richter Rauzer setup against the dragon is a common white plan to exchange off the dragon bishop.

The so called Engilsh attack against the Dragon would lead to the Yugoslav attack - hv pivot on f3 to push g4&h4. Open up the h file for your rooks etc & ultimately hv a rook sac later. It bears a lot of ideas in common with the saemisch against the KID imo -

  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #12 - 09/23/05 at 11:50:44
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Good point, woofwoof, the Schevy seems to be a tough nut to crack indeed. Apparently, you can also play the Velimirovic Attack against the Classical, and the Richter-Rauzer Attack against the Dragon seems to have a similar piece setup as well.  One step further and I'll be playing the English attack against all variations after 2...d6, which was an alternative to Bc4 I was considering anyway, remember?  Fascinating! Grin
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #11 - 09/23/05 at 10:40:26
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@mad_knight- I have the original 1972 Faber version in descriptive notation bought in 1984!!. Thanks very much for offering assistance.

On Bc4 against the schevy - I personally prefer to go for the Velimirovic rather than play a 'normal' Sozin/Fischer attack. The opposite side castling by both White & Black offers white a chance of a good pawn storm on the K-side. I wont say that this is in anyway superior to the normal Sozin....Just a matter of preference or love for something more active given that the schevy is usually more solid compared to the Najdorf.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #10 - 09/22/05 at 11:09:52
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Mnb

1. you're too modest, 1800 is way above my level!
2. when I mentioned your preference for the positional approach, I was merely thinking of your recommendation for the Sveshnikov and my preference for the main line.

By the way, your posts on transpositional possibilities after 1 ...e5 in a thread on the Petrov (started by Ambitious Amateur) were most helpful.  So I'll keep watching your posts Grin

woofwoof,

yes, they're asking crazy prices for Fischer's My 60 Memorable Games.  Luckily, there's a recent French edition I just bought new for 27 EUR, 10 times less than the most expensive English version on Amazon.com Wink If you're interested, I can give you the particulars.

Cheers
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #9 - 09/22/05 at 08:39:10
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'My 60 memorable games' by Fischer is a good book with quite a no. of Bc4 lines in it as Willempie mentioned. The only problem is getting hold of one if you dont have it....cos its already out of print.

Try amazon.com or abebooks.com to search it out.  The lousy thing about this is that you may be able to find it, but it jus costs a huge bomb since its something of a collectors' item already! Tongue

imo if you are to possess just 1 book on chess in your whole life, this is it.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #8 - 09/21/05 at 21:12:09
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@ Mad Knight

"But you are obviously playing at a higher level than me, witness your preference for the positional approach"
1. Thanks for this flattering comment, but my Dutch ELO has never been higher than 1880.
2. Preference for the positional approach? I have played the Danish, Kings, Morra, Albins and Jänisch Schliemann gambits!

One remark: against the Scheveningen 6.Be3 is also in tune with your repertoire, while 6.g4 is not only aggressive, but according to current theory also very dangerous for Black.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #7 - 09/21/05 at 14:01:56
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Nice to see, someone finally taking me seriously. Grin

Golubev's book on the Sozin is very good, but is a bit "analytical" (except the excellent introduction which gives very good explanations), so it is better as a reference (when you analyse your games) than as a learning tool. Best way to get up to speed is to check some annotated games by some good players. Fischer (in his 60 games book), Short (also in his match against Kasparov), the aforementioned Golubev, Topalov and Emms all have played these variations so there should be plenty to find.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #6 - 09/21/05 at 11:59:03
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Willempie, woofwoof,

Thank you both for your comments, which strengthen my belief I'm on the right track here.  Actually, Willempie was one of those who in another thread convinced me not to get bogged down with theory too much at my level, for which I'll be eternally grateful to him  Smiley

Mnb

I really appreciate it you took the time to come up with such detailed recommendations. But you are obviously playing at a higher level than me, witness your preference for the positional approach and the avoidance of variations that haven't done well in serious competitve play.  You're right to say some of the Bc4 lines, notably in the Scheveningen, are not the best for White, and Mednis concedes this as well. But I just happen to like them, they're in tune with the rest of my repertoire, which I'd label aggressive "un poco ma non troppo" (hence my doubts about the English Attack), and at my level I won't have to worry too much about their theoretical standing, I think.  So I'm going to try out these lines in actual play and see what happens.  And maybe I'll come back running to you if I get beaten too often! Grin
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #5 - 09/21/05 at 11:02:52
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Quote:
How can you play Ndb5 against the Kan where Black played a6 on move 4?


Oooopps!!! Sorry about that. Very careless of me. Thanks for pointing it out Arkhein.  Embarrassed

I was actually referring to those early e5 lines like the Sveshnikov/Pelikan & other what nots type of systems. So after 4...e5, Ndb5 would be the best move imo.

Also against this sicilian setup (whatever its called)
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 e6  5.Ndb5!
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #4 - 09/21/05 at 10:21:46
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Quote:
The only other sysytem you need to learn would be the Ndb5 against the Kan/Paulsen.


How can you play Ndb5 against the Kan where Black played a6 on move 4? There are somes different way to play against a pure Kan (2..e6, 4..a6, generally without Nc6, or only when it's the best move or better than Nbd7), like a maroczy bind against the Hedgehog, or playing like a normal open sicilian. The Kan is very flexible and solid, I play it with Black, but I don't know what I would recommand for White, it depend of your style I think.

But I like the Fischer/Sozin attack against the Najdorf/classical sicilian, where Golubev's book is excellent.
  
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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #3 - 09/20/05 at 21:34:07
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I think that Bc4 is a good commom system that works against a no. of Sicilians - Najdorf, Classical & Scheveningen + it disallows the Dragon & Boleslavsky effectively. So its like a  '1 size fits all' more or less. The main idea is all the same too => to put pressure on the f7 so there are a couple of overlapping points with the ideas of the Italian. Thus less studying to do overall  Grin

The only other sysytem you need to learn would be the Ndb5 against the Kan/Paulsen.

later edit: MNb,your post came just before mine.  That's another great post from you!
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #2 - 09/20/05 at 21:31:19
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The good new is that not only Black has a wide choice, but White too. There are Nunn's three editions of Beat the Sicilian, there is Davies' repertoire based on 6.g3. It is also possible to found your repertoire on 6.Be2.
First question: what to do against The Najdorf? One cannot really say, that there is a superior system here. 6.Bg5 and 6.Be3 both demand a detailed theoretical knowledge. But there are some other options, dangerous enough in skilled hands. I'll give two examples of a more or less complete repertoire.
6.f4 e5 7.Nf3
6.f4 e6 7.Be2 striving for the piece sace Nd5, like Sznapik-Adamski, POLch 1978. This has been debated in another thread; maybe Willempie recalls which one.
6.Bc4 e6 7.Bb3 b5 8.Qf3 (see Golubev's book).

Your decision will influence your choice against the Scheveningen:
I dislike both 6.Be2 Nc6 7.Be3 Be7 8.o-o o-o 9.f4 e5 and 6.Bc4 Be7 followed by o-o and Na6. So:
6.g4 as the Keres Attack is still dangerous.
6.Be3 Be7 (a6 7.Be2 strives for the Sznapik-Adamski game and Nc6 7.Bc4 is the Sozin) 7.f4 followed by 8.Qf3 and 9.o-o-o.

Sozin: 6.Bc4 e6 (after Qb6 7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.o-o e6 9.Bf4 and g6 9.Be3 White has good attacking chances) 7.Be3 and 8.Bb3 gives White the choice between the Velimirovic Attack, the Fischer Attack (not so popular, but dangerous enough) and again a setup with f4 and Qf3. The choice can even depend on Black's move order.

The second question is: what to do against the Svesjnikov. White has not done very well in the main lines about last 5 years, so you might look at the positional 7.Nd5 variation. This means, you must avoid 2...Nc6/5...e6 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bf4 e5 8.Bg5 though. The other option is 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.e5. You will also prefer 2...Nc6/4...e5 6.Nb5 d6 7.c4 against the Kalasjnikov.

The other Sicilian Defenses are relatively easier to meet, though I do not want to suggest that they are objectively worse.

Dragon: 9.o-o-o is quite feared these days. Karpov's variation 6.Be2 Bg7 7.o-o o-o 8.Nb3 Nc6 9.Bg5 or even 9.Kh1 first is also good.

Accelerated Dragon: Maroczy setup, but it has never been clear to me, what's against 5.Be2 Bg7 6.Nb3. It depends on the question, if Black can play d7-d5 somewhere.

Paulsen/Kan/Taimanov systems:
2...a6/4...e6 5.Bd3 keeps the option open to play c4 or not. Black can prevent this with 2...e6/4...Nc6 so 5.Nc3 a6 (we have already seen Nf6 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.e5) and now 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 is a transposition to 2...a6/4...e6 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Nc3.
White can also stick to 5.Nc3 and 6.Be2 of course. Black has several independent options in that case.

Hope this helps. If you expect to meet the Sicilian often, studying the Open systems will certainly pay off. I tried for a year, but decided it was not worth the effort when I got only four games in one year.
  

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Re: Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
Reply #1 - 09/20/05 at 16:50:08
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Sounds like a decent plan. I quit running away from sicilian theory as well and although you get the occassional setback by running into some trap, you get much more play out of the opening. Basically if you keep dodging the main variations, you will get stuck at some point. As an added bonus I have noticed that black players (below 1800) dont know much more theory or better said if they do they dont know how to react to non-theoretical but logical moves. With white you have a little bit more room for error.

If you aim for setups with Bc4, I think it is a good plan to look at Fischer's games in his 60 memorable games. I am not sure but I think there are also 1 or 2 games with an e6 setup by black.
  

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Open Sicilian for the White amateur?
09/20/05 at 15:30:10
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Hi everyone,

I've never played the Open Sicilian because of its reputation as a theoretical nightmare.  I tried every Anti-Sicilian in the book but didn't like any of them except the Morra, because play is rather similar to that in the Open.  Alas, my opponents would mostly decline the gambit and transpose to the Alapin, which was OK if they'd play the d5 variation because I like playing IQP positions.  But most of my opponents would play the Nf6 variation instead, considered the better variation for Black, but I absolutely HATED playing it as White. Angry

Then I read some people on this forum saying:  in the lower regions of amateur play, theory doesn't matter that much, because most of your opponents don't know the theory either, and games are more often than not decided by mistakes rather than by the latest theoretical novelty.  This made a lot of sense and it prompted me to look again at the Open. Smiley

Edmar Mednis' "Practical Opening Tips" features a chapter on the Open Sicilian, in which he recommends White to play more or less the same piece placement based on the Sozin in all 2 ...d6 variations:  Dragon, Accelerated Dragon, Najdorf, Scheveningen and Classical.  At last, some order in the chaos of variations... So I also looked for such a "common denominator" for the non-2 ...d6 variations and after some analysis found out that all of them except the Kan could be met by 4 Nb5 or 5 Nb5 (depending on whether or not Black would play 4 ...Nf6) and pressure on the d5 square. Grin

This is of course only a framework for further study of the individual variations, but I think it'll make such study easier than without it.  I think even an amateur can and should play the Open and have fun, even if he doesn't necessarily play like a GM. Roll Eyes  The important thing, of course, is to take a correct start...  You guys think think this is a good way to start?

By the way, I've also considered playing the English Attack against anything Black would throw at me, which of course looks very attractive albeit a bit over-aggressive to my taste... And does it really work against ANYTHING?! ???

Look forward to your comments!
  

Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale her infinite variety - William Shakespeare
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