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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives (Read 36314 times)
mulehollandaise
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #53 - 11/20/05 at 07:56:40
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I'm reading a book of the GMI Yasser Seirawan (Winning Chess Openings, a really good book) and this is where I first read something about the Max Lange attack (one of the favorites of the author). Here's what Seirawan says :

Main Line : 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4!? exd4 5.0-0 Nf6 6. e5 d5! 7. exf6 dxc4 8.Re1+ Be6 9.Ng5 Qd5! 10.Nc3! Qf5 11.Nce4 0-0-0 12.g4! Qe5 13. fxg7 Rhg8 14.Nxe6 fxe6 15.Bh6

1) 4...Bxd4 5.Bg5 Nf6 (5...f6 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Be3 Ne6 8.0-0 and white has a good development with attacking possibility with Qh5+) 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.f4 d6 8.f5 and a good position for White

2) 5... d6 6.c3 dxc3 7.Nxc3 with White ahead in development

3) 6... Ng4? 7.Bxf7+ Kxf7 8. Ng5+ Kg8 9. Qxg4 Nxe5 10.Qe4 d6 11. Qd5+ Kf8 12.f4! and White wins

4) 9...Qxf6? 10.Nxe6 fxe6 11.Qh5+ g6 12.Qxc5 wins a Bishop

5) 9... 0-0? 10.fxg7 Kxg7 (10...Re8 11.Qh5 Bf5?? 12.Qxf7 mate) 11.Rxe6! and White win a piece (11...fxe6? 12.Nxe6+ wins the Queen ; 11...h6? 12.Rxh6! and if 12...Kxh6 13.Ne6+ wins again the Queen)

6) Of course, 10...dxc3?? 11.Qxd5 wins the Queen

7) 11...gxf6 12.g4! Qe5 13.f4! d3+ 14.Kf1 Qd4 15.Be3 and White's position is excellent
  
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Willempie
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #52 - 11/10/05 at 04:53:44
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I already read that one, but still thanks. Smiley
He has quite some good ideas (and is able to explain them) in the 3Bc4 complex, when he is not discussing weird lines (Grob and somesuch).

BtW the only times I have played the TKD as black was when I played a Traxler (still the Bc5 move), so I am very unfamiliar with all the Ng5 lines.
  

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MNb
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #51 - 11/09/05 at 20:42:24
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Willempie, you might be interested in Tim Harding's article:
http://www.chesscafe.com/TIM/kibb.htm
  

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Willempie
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #50 - 11/09/05 at 07:26:02
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I dont understand you exactly. I think you are referring to one of the TKD lines, which I have never played.

I am just in an eternal discussion with Mnb in which he argues that Nf6 lines are better than the Bc5 lines in the whole d4-gambits complex. And there I agree with you that I dont like the lines after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.o-o Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 for black for basically the same reason Mnb doesnt like my lines.

Currently I still have to look at the line 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4 6 0-0 Nxe4 7 cxd4 d5 8 dxc5 dxc4 9 Qe2 Qd3.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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BladezII
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #49 - 11/08/05 at 22:35:17
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@ Willempie,

I took athomick's line, more specifically, line B and posted the lines for White.  In this line, I believe it is White who is calling the shots and Black is just playing to stay alive, not win at all.  That is not equality.

Is this the  line you are interested in discussing?
  

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Willempie
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #48 - 11/08/05 at 06:10:16
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As I am without my stuff I cant comment on the line you give. So I give my comments a bit later.
The Qxd8+ line is not very good in the sense that my previous comment is 100% applicable. I have looked at that line a lot and it is not very amusing for white.
  

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MNb
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #47 - 11/07/05 at 22:01:31
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While I agree in general, I would like to point out that after 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.Nf3 (or whatever) Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.o-o!? Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5 (best according to everyone) 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 Qd3 10.Re1 f5 11.Nc3 o-o 12.Nxe4 fxe4 13.Qxe4 Bf5 14.Qh4 the material balance is restored, while the opposite coloured bishops give rise to interesting play. So here your argument does not apply. Still I do not claim a White advantage.
My first point is, that in the 6.o-o!? gambit Black must return the pawn or accept big risks, while play remains complicated enough to create winning chances if Black choses the line above (well, up to ELO 1900 level). Moreover the real gambit 9.Qxd8+ might not be so bad either, if I may believe Emms.
My second point is, that White has more play in the line above than in several lines following from 4...Nf6. All I can say that as soon I knew and understood the several variations, I got very good results with the 2Kts as Black.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #46 - 11/07/05 at 06:02:38
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I have to say I have an entirely different opinion about the resulting positions. I have played all these Italian-related lines with both colours ever since I learned chess. White really doesnt have much of an initiative and constantly has to find the best moves not to lose the initiative. Almost all the resulting positions (in which the pawn hasnt been returned) have the same basic structure, white has some initiative, but it is very difficult to do something with it. For black it is much easier, he just has to find decent spots for his pieces and always has a cop-out by returning the pawn or offering exchanges.
These gambits are excellent at 1600-level where black players often play too passive or too materialistic, but from about 1700 they are just too simplistic. Tactically they are not very complex (unlike say a Max Lange or Muzio) whereas strategically they are very superficial. I am not saying black can autopilot, but I feel they are much easier to play for black once you have avoided the early pitfalls.
We can discuss the merits of Bc5 vs Nf6, but I think we can agree that objectively they are about equal. With in general Nf6 more focussing on counterplay and Bc5 more on neutralising. A bit similar to the Sicilian and Caro-Kann, though much less extreme.
  

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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #45 - 11/05/05 at 15:53:15
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"Ok Mnb point this pawngrabber to one variation in which white gets an advantage."
As the typical pawngrabber you have missed my point. I don't want to prove an advantage. Why should I? 1.e4 c5 = anyway. My point is, that with your attitude (underestimating the gambiteer's attacking chances), you will make some mistake in the middle game. And then I will strike.  The cause is, you think you have reached comfortable equality. No, you have reached complicated equality. Admittedly, it is not complicated enough for corr. play.
So let me make it clear for once and for all: 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 (only move indeed) Nf6 6.o-o does promise White interesting play, not an advantage.
4...Nf6 gives Black reasonable chances to take over the initiative. That is why I prefer 4...Nf6.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #44 - 11/02/05 at 09:32:20
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Ok Mnb point this pawngrabber to one variation in which white gets an advantage.

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4
-6 0-0 Nxe4 7 cxd4 d5 8 dxc5 dxc4 imo black is just a pawn up. Not a very usefull one, but after Qxd8+ or Qe2 white doesnt have very much going on as discussed in another thread.
-6 b4 Be7 7 e5 Ne4 and now  8 b5 Na5 9 Bd3 Nxc3 or 8 Qb3 0-0 9 cxd4 Bxb4+
-6 e5 d5 7 Bb5 Ne4 8 cxd4 Bb6 followed by 0-0 and f6.

After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 white must play 5 c3 to not get an inferior position. There are some sidelines like 5 Ng5, but they are not very dangerous. So basically when you answer 4 .. Bc5 to these Scottish gambits you avoid all their theory and usually get back to your main line Giuoco theory, which is certainly not worse to the TKD for black.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #43 - 11/01/05 at 20:15:29
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It is just a matter of agreement, if the 6.o-o gambit belongs to the Italian or the Two Knights.
No matter what ECO says, I think White is better after dxc3 7.e5 (7.Nxc3 is imo full of chances too) d5 8.exf6 dxc4 9.Qe2+! Be6 10.fxg7 Rg8 11.Rd1 Qf6 12.Nxc3 Qxg7 13.g3 and with Black's King stuck in the centre, I would rather have White.

I agree, that 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Nf6 is the sensible choice; so does Emms. Only pawngrabbers like Willempie prefer the complications of 4...Bc5. Such players are my favourite victims.  Grin
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #42 - 11/01/05 at 08:42:07
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Thanks, MNb, for putting me right on the 5 c3 Nf6 6 b4?! and the 5 …d3?! stuff! As regards the latter, I guess I was thrown off the scent by Glenn Flear mentioning, after 6 b4 Bb6 7 0-0 d6 8 a4 a6, only 9 Qb3, “with the initiative”. I can appreciate 9 Qd3 is really just good for White, even if in practice I suspect things are rather messy (hence Black’s reasonable score?)? Presumably 7 …Nf6 here, transposing to 5 c3 Nf6 6 0-0 d3?! 7 b4 Bb6, can’t help, as all Black has done is commit his KN. I’m sure I myself would simply meet 6 0-0 with 6 …Ne4, but isn’t 6 …dc reasonable too?; NCO gives 7 e5 d5 8 Bb3, unclear.

I’m really fascinated by the question of classification here that MNb points up! The position after 6 0-0 is treated as a Giuoco Piano in BCO 2 (1989), but as a Two Knights in MCO 13 (1990) and in NCO (1999). It’s also classed as a (C56) Two Knights on ChessPublishing, where it’s suggested there’s disagreement over C55/C56 classification, and as a Two Knights also by ChessBase (8), Fritz (6), and indeed almost all the other chess engines I currently have that give ECO codes! So what’s going on here? One might think the classification might have changed in the 1990s, except that Palkovi’s book (if I’ve got the right one) was published in 1998! Can anyone shed any more light on this?

Personally, unless someone persuades me otherwise, I’m reckoning in practice to short-circuit all these admittedly fascinating lines, by meeting 3 d4 ed 4 Bc4 with 4 …Nf6, with a clear transposition to the Two Knights. 5 e5 d5 6 Bb5 Ne4 7 Nd4 Bc5 (or 7 …Bd7) seems like an interesting game for both sides, while 5 …Ne4 and 5 …Ng4 look OK too.
  
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #41 - 10/31/05 at 20:46:38
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Markovich must feel proud now.  Cheesy
How about the plans to revive this excellent column?
Excellent, because it forced me to think twice before disagreeing.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #40 - 10/31/05 at 19:23:08
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There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives
Reply #39 - 10/31/05 at 19:21:59
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There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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