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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1 (Read 10084 times)
emoskow(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #23 - 02/23/06 at 14:19:49
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Both qb7 and rb8 have been mentioned by dearing and golubov, the analysis has been incomplete by both sources. I have worked hard on these positions as the dynamic posibilities are to my liking unfortunately the Bh6 issue remains problematic. I have tried basic ideas including 1. exchange sac on f8, attack down b file including plans with e5, d5 then e4 if ed occurs. Both seem insufficient at this time. I would love to work on this in a systematic manner. Does anyone have a reasonable way to proceed. I would like this to work for black but cannot find an answer, I have looked at this with a gm, im and fritz and seem about to give up on this work. any ides>>>
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #22 - 02/23/06 at 13:04:23
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What about  Bc6, so that it will be exchanged with a Knight when it arrives at d5? I have not checked the position yet, it's just a blind analysis, but i promise to come back with more concrete variations.
  
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madhacker
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #21 - 02/23/06 at 12:59:22
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/20/06 at 16:01:27:
I have faced the line 18.Bh6 at an official blitz game some months ago. I remember that i realised that after 18....Qb7 19.b3 cxb3 20.a/cxb3 Bxh6 21.Qxh6 black seems safe because after Nd5 and eventually Nxf6 exf6 the Qb7 guards the h7 pawn. Do i miss another threat?



I don't think another threat is the main worry - it's more that this doesn't work as it is with the bishop on d7, blocking the second rank. But where does it go to? It has to stay on the c8-h3 diagonal to keep the e6 square covered, but the only place it can go is c8. This cuts off the two rooks and makes the bishop very hard to activate, making a successful counterattack quite unlikely (quite apart from the worrying prospect of g5, sacking on h5, and pushing the g-pawn); again, this isn't based on concrete analysis, but this just feels bad for Black.
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #20 - 02/23/06 at 11:05:04
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[we must not analyse the same position ... after the strong suggestion of Golubev 18/Bh6 the queen b7 doent defend h7 because there is a pawn on e7 and a bishop at d7 ! White has a very strong attack ... the supporter of 9/000 Bd7 has to find a antidote !quote author=Ametanoitos link=1128368839/15#19 date=1140451408]Sorry i meant 18..Rb8 19.b3 etc. Embarrassed [/quote]
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #19 - 02/20/06 at 16:03:28
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Sorry i meant 18..Rb8 19.b3 etc.  Embarrassed
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #18 - 02/20/06 at 16:01:27
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I have faced the line 18.Bh6 at an official blitz game some months ago. I remember that i realised that after 18....Qb7 19.b3 cxb3 20.a/cxb3 Bxh6 21.Qxh6 black seems safe because after Nd5 and eventually Nxf6 exf6 the Qb7 guards the h7 pawn. Do i miss another threat?
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #17 - 02/20/06 at 14:16:19
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@Ametanoitos: Thanks for sharing your analysis with us. You definitely have some interesting ideas!

The last line given by parisestmagique looks dangerous for black. Golubev writes that on 18. ... Qb7 white plays 19.b3 and it seems that his attack is faster.
In the other line with the exchange sacrifice I also looked at your analysis: 16.Nb3 Neg4:!? 17.fg4: Ne4: 18. Bf3!? Nc3:+ 19.Kc1 Nd1: 20.Rd1: b6.
I am not sure how to assess that position. It is difficult for black to activate his pawns, but it is also difficult for white to make progress.
The other line with 16.Kb2 is fun to play for black, I won a nice internet game with it!
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #16 - 02/17/06 at 15:11:26
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Does anyone has a suggestion against the idea of GM Golubev in the book Experts vs. the Sicilian :
1.e4 5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 xd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.N3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 N6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.000 ! (safe and strong) Bd7 ?! 10.g4 R8 11.h4 Ne5 12.h5 Qa5 13.Nb3 Q7 14.Be2 b5 15.Kb1 N4 16.Bx4 bx 17.Nd4 Qb7 18.Bh6! white is better
  
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madhacker
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #15 - 02/16/06 at 21:15:47
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/15/06 at 14:17:37:
@ madhacker: I think you are wrong about some things.

Firstly you say:

"I don't give a sound line for Black because I don't think there is one ("theoretically interesting" and "theoretically playable" are different!). I've had an admittedly brief look at the content of both Eddie's book and Mikhail Golubev's work in "Experts vs. the Sicilian" and White's lines look quite convincing to me. Either way, I'm sticking with ...d5 for now. "

Do you disagree about my recomendation of 19..a5 (which is not in the books you mentioned)? I have tested this line against strong oponents and won easily two times.If you don't study one system in depth (not only with computer assistance and reading books) DO NOT say it's not sound! People read these threads and make wrong conclusions!

Secondly i also disagree with what you say about the old threads. I think it is very annoying to search lots of threads to find something i want.Also it is a common thing when you ask someone here about something ,to get an answer like "this was discused in another thread, look there..." and lots of hours spent then trying to find something in a lot of similar-subject threads.


First, the issue of soundness: you'll notice the words "admittedly brief" sandwiched in between "I've had a look". Now, if I was reading this, this would not come across as something conclusive. This would come across as someone who hasn't really looked at the lines closely, but their own experiences of it aren't great. This does not mean that there isn't anything for Black. It should be very clear that this is an opinion. Not a fact. There is a distinct difference between "I don't think that this is sound, but I haven't really looked at it" and "This is not sound". Please stop treating me as though I had said the latter and misconstruing what I said. Incidentally, that goes for you too, Eric. Besides, if we all agreed, message boards would become pretty boring pretty fast, wouldn't they?

I'm not going to take a look at 19...a5 until I find any serious problems with 9...d5, as the rook-for-several-pawns endings don't tempt me either, but if or when I do that'll be my first point of call. Until then, I neither agree nor disagree with your idea. Based on my own knowledge of the Dragon in general, and FightingDragon's post, I'd lean towards White, but I wouldn't make a certain choice either way until I'd looked at it for myself.

Oh, and just to pre-empt any further straw men being set up: I mean by that that I don't personally like them, compared to the 9...d5 positions; I prefer to have the queens on. This is personal preference, and no more than that.

As for resurrected threads: you might find it annoying to search old threads, but if you want to find out about something on a message board, if the topic has been discussed before - at any time - the onus is on the person who wants to find things out to search through the old threads (in fact, in principle I think if you know there's been a thread on something and someone starts a topic saying "can anyone tell me how to play this?", you shouldn't reply; there's a search function in a forum for a reason, so people should learn to use it!). If there's a long-dormant thread with good content in it, start a new thread and put a link to the old thread in the new one; if there's one without any appreciable content, as this one was six months ago, in what way is posting in it of value? Essentially, if a thread has been quiet for some time, whether or not it was busy originally, there's probably a reason for it. Either everyone had said what they wanted to say, or there wasn't much to say in the first place. If it was the former, then feel free to reuse the old thread - but make sure you've got something useful to contribute; if the latter, start a new thread. If nothing else, if there's junk in the original thread, people are more likely to contribute more junk - on the other hand, a well-thought-out first post will attract well-thought-out posts in reply. There are enough intelligent chess players who can recognise what's worth responding to and what isn't.

A lot of my views on forum etiquette comes from being an active member of these message boards for some time. They might seem a bit strict, but they're the best-run message boards I involve myself in, and they consistently get good content because if threads don't have any useful content, they get closed. End of. Obviously standards are different according to what boards you are on, and I wouldn't expect things to be enforced as strictly here, but in terms of things like the search function, they can find the information themselves no matter how strict the rules are. That's nothing to do with rules, that's sheer laziness.

Adam
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #14 - 02/16/06 at 13:54:58
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FightingDragon wrote on 02/15/06 at 17:34:49:
(I'm also interested in your suggestion against 10.Kb1 Rc8 11.g4 Ne5 12.h4 Qa5 13.Be2 Rc3:!? 14.Qc3: Qc3: 15.bc3: Rc8 16.Nb3!)


I forgot about that. The solution is 16..Nexg4! (not my idea, but when i played it i didn't knew about it) anf if just Bxa7 then Ne5 and if Bd4 (that's why white plays Nb3, to put Bd4) just Nh5 takind advantage of the weak dark squares. I think more critical is 16.Kb2 Be8 and then 17.Nb3! (for 17.h5 see my recomendation in another thread...) when i think that black can take advantage by the fact that h5 was not played by white and play 17..h5! when 18.g5 Nfd7 (so that Bxa7 b6!) is very unclear but maybe white is better.I haven't face this variation OTB yet!
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #13 - 02/16/06 at 13:42:40
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Black's idea after 19..a5 is simple.He wants to activate his pieces (maybe with Rfc8-c6-b6) with freedom. Without the Bc1 white cannot deliver mate so the idea is to play b3! at the right time to free the Bc1 and create a mating attack.19..a5 and maybe after 20.Qh4 a4! makes the idea b3 very dangerous for white. If black can play a4 then  he can recapture with the h pawn after hxg6  Shocked and free the Rf8 and maybe put him on b6 when b2 is really hot!!  Grin I'll provide you with some old analysis of mine (when i was styding this idea). For me the problem of the Bd7 variation is the simple idea :1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. O-O-O Bd7 10. g4 Rc8 11. h4 Ne5 12. Be2 Qa5 13.h5 b5 14.Kb1! (or even 14.a3!?.Dearing gives only 14.Nb3 as a "!" but this is a "?!" for me) when the only logical move is 14..Rxc3 (Don't try b4 and take the d5 pawn.Trust me!...) as played by M.Carlsen against J.Smeets (Carlsen with Black) Corus 2004 but i think that if Smeets had played a timely a3 (as it was played against me recently) black's counterplay would freeze. I'd be gratefull if you find some idea there because i haven't so far... Sad
  
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emoskow(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #12 - 02/16/06 at 02:01:30
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playing in rekajavik open and gausdal category 12 could someone play 000 against me I gurantee i will play bd7 and like joe namath I gurantee victory wait and see a big tn awaits, ok call me a liar hacker and top gun but wait and see.
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #11 - 02/15/06 at 17:34:49
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It may well be that 19. ... a5 is an improvement over 19. ... h6, but I also don't like the position after it. Black's main problem is to create counterplay, and I have no idea how he could do that. b2, White's only weakness is safely defended and the centre is also under control.
Meanwhile, it's also not easy to see how white can break through, but as black has 0 play he can try to optimize the positions of his pieces (of course white has to act patiently as you showed in your notes).
So what does black play e.g. against 20.Qh4 followed by Nde2? White can triple his heavy pieces on the h-file, he can also play for Nf4 and Nd5.
I would be pleased if you found a solution, because this is the main variation which put me off 9. ... Bd7 so that I now play 9. ... d5!? (I'm also interested in your suggestion against 10.Kb1 Rc8 11.g4 Ne5 12.h4 Qa5 13.Be2 Rc3:!? 14.Qc3: Qc3:  15.bc3: Rc8 16.Nb3!)
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #10 - 02/15/06 at 14:17:37
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@ madhacker: I think you are wrong about some things.

Firstly you say:

"I don't give a sound line for Black because I don't think there is one ("theoretically interesting" and "theoretically playable" are different!). I've had an admittedly brief look at the content of both Eddie's book and Mikhail Golubev's work in "Experts vs. the Sicilian" and White's lines look quite convincing to me. Either way, I'm sticking with ...d5 for now. "

Do you disagree about my recomendation of 19..a5 (which is not in the books you mentioned)? I have tested this line against strong oponents and won easily two times.If you don't study one system in depth (not only with computer assistance and reading books) DO NOT say it's not sound! People read these threads and make wrong conclusions!

Secondly i also disagree with what you say about the old threads. I think it is very annoying to search lots of threads to find something i want.Also it is a common thing when you ask someone here about something ,to get an answer like "this was discused in another thread, look there..." and lots of hours spent then trying to find something in a lot of similar-subject threads.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #9 - 02/14/06 at 23:48:53
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Quote:
Mister Madhacker, i dont understand. Do you think that the subject i proposed has no theorical interest ? so why dont you give a sound line for black ?



No, not that - more that starting a new thread makes more sense than using an old one. Especially one that was as old as this, with as little content as this one had (it's a bit different if there's something like 20-30 posts in a thread, since then there is likely to be something useful in the thread that players should read before responding, as it'll probably be relevant to the topic), when you first posted in it.

As for the Dragon line, it's theoretically interesting, but I don't give a sound line for Black because I don't think there is one ("theoretically interesting" and "theoretically playable" are different!). I've had an admittedly brief look at the content of both Eddie's book and Mikhail Golubev's work in "Experts vs. the Sicilian" and White's lines look quite convincing to me. Either way, I'm sticking with ...d5 for now.

Adam
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #8 - 02/14/06 at 00:04:14
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Mister Madhacker, i dont understand. Do you think that the subject i proposed has no theorical interest ? so why dont you give a sound line for black ?
  
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madhacker
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #7 - 02/11/06 at 12:49:38
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After ...g5, I think a White plan of h6 and Qd2 (hitting g5) is pretty strong.

Also, as a general point, but particularly to parisestmagique(Guest): don't resurrect year-old threads like this. If you want to find out about something, and there's no current thread on it (by "current" I mean there's been posts in it in the last month or so), start a new thread. Just a general forum etiquette point.

Adam
  
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M Arounopoulos(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #6 - 02/07/06 at 18:49:32
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What about 19...g5? Then White's attack down the h-file seems to come to a halt...
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #5 - 02/07/06 at 16:20:25
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Well your move 19/... a5 seems good (Fritz8 like it) but h6 seems ok too.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #4 - 02/06/06 at 15:07:07
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15.Kb1 Nc4 16.Bxc4 bxc4 17.Nd4 Qb7 18.Qh2 Rb8 19.Bc1 and my recomendation here is 19..a5!? playing against the plan of b3 to free the Bc1 at the right moment.One game of mine continued 20.hxg6 fxg6 21.Nf5 gxf5! 22.g5 Rf7!! with a winning position for black after 23.gxf6 Bxf6. Any thoughts? 19..a5 has never been played before. Lalic played 19..h6 but i can't understand why Undecided
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #3 - 02/01/06 at 14:57:19
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Black is fine.I'll find my notes that makes black's game better than the way Lalic played this variation which is in Dearing's book and 'll share them soon.
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #2 - 02/01/06 at 11:53:55
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well in this line Black is alive, see last Dearing's book where he analyse both 15.Kb1!? b4 and 15.Kb1 N4(! from my point of view). For once he is pessimistic about black chances but there is some play for both players.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
Reply #1 - 10/05/05 at 04:15:06
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According to current theory, he doesn't. Hence 9...d5 is the move of choice.

This isn't to say you can't play 9...Bd7, just that I personally haven't found anything too attractive about it against White's best moves.
  
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Ryan Harper
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9.0-0-0..... 15.Kb1
10/03/05 at 14:47:10
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I would like to know what is the theory behind this position. How does black handle 15.Kb1?


[Event "?"]
[Site "Rishon Le Ziyyon"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "9. 0-0-0 Bd7!?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B75"]
[Annotator "Harper,Ryan"]
[PlyCount "41"]
[EventDate "1996.02.??"]
[SourceDate "2004.12.24"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. O-O-O Bd7 10. g4 Rc8 11. h4 Ne5 12. h5 Qa5 13. Nb3  Qc7 14.Be2 b5 15. Kb1
  
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