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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc! (Read 28629 times)
BladezII
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #40 - 10/30/05 at 13:02:57
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17. Qxc3

and here

17.... Qxc3

This is the move suggested by Sacapawn.

18. bxc3 e5
19. dxe5 Nxe5
20. Rad1 Re8

(20... Bg4 21. Rxd8+ Rxd8 22. f3 Bf5 23. Bxa7 Rd2 24. Rd1 (This is a technical win for white.)

21. Bb5 Nc6
(21... Rf8 22. Bc5)

22. Bxc6  bxc6

23. Rd6

White is the one playing for the win here.  Black will be fighting to save his life since rooks are still on board.

The following is what Sacapawn wrote:
"After 17.-,Qxc3 (instead of 17.-,Qf5) 18.bxc3 e5 19.dxe5 Nxe5 White has the bishop pair but also the worse pawn structure. Looks equal to me. "

Well, before he said this about the position, I said the following about another similar position from another variation--

"White has two weak pawns but Black does not have time NOR  pieces to exploit any of it.  Right now it is White who has the  initiative.

You will clearly see,  Black has not solved  his problems;  he is not equal, and White has a  very nice game, with an undisputable edge in this very position. "

The same, as you can see, applies here.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #39 - 10/30/05 at 11:23:09
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Quote:
[Event "TCh-POL Ekstraliga"] 
[Site "Lubniewice POL"] 
[Date "2005.??.??"] 
[White "Bielczyk,J"] 
[Black "Socko,B"] 
[Result "0-1"] 
[WhiteElo "2346"] 
[BlackElo "2615"] 

1.e4 e6 
2.Nf3 d5 
3.Nc3 d4 
4.Ne2 c5 
5.c3 Nc6 
6.cxd4 Nf6 
7.e5 Nd7 
8.dxc5 Ndxe5 
9.Nxe5 Nxe5 
10.d4 Bxc5 
11.Be3 Bb4+ 
12.Nc3 Nc6 
13.Be2 Qa5 
14.0-0 0-0 

but now 

15.Qd3 !  (instead of 15.Rc1, as it ocurred in the game)

15... Rd8

[15...Bd7 16.a3] 

16.a3 Bxc3 
17.Qxc3 Qf5 
18.Rac1   (or even 18.Bf3)

I don't see how Black has equalized here at all.  I dont think Black has solved all his opening problems yet (and it's move 18!) 

White seems to have very nice game in this line.


After 17.-,Qxc3 (instead of 17.-,Qf5) 18.bxc3 e5 19.dxe5 Nxe5 White has the bishop pair but also the worse pawn structure. Looks equal to me.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #38 - 10/30/05 at 09:45:20
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In response to the posting that sparked this thread; my book states that white "unquestionably has the harder time of it in practice" after following the mainline until move 10.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #37 - 10/30/05 at 06:42:51
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1. e4 e6
2. Nf3 d5
3. Nc3 d4
4. Ne2 c5
5. c3 Nc6
6. cxd4 Nf6
7. e5 Nd7
8. dxc5 Ndxe5
9. Nxe5 Nxe5
10. d4 Bxc5
11. Be3 Bb4+
12. Nc3  Nc6
13. Be2

(13. Bd3 O-O 14. O-O

I really can't complain for this idea.  I still prefer to develop the bishop to e2 so then I can place it on the long diagonal and leave the d-file clear for the heavy pieces.  White, sooner or later, might play d5 and with Bf3 and a battery on the d-file and a rook on the e-file, where Black will have his Queen after your idea of  ....Qe7, this set up for White would be my preference.)


13...  O-O
This is your idea for Black  here.  Let's see--

14. O-O Qe7

Another wasted tempo

15. a3 Bd6  

Black had to waste a tempo.  However, white's 15.a3 is a useful move in this type of position.  Black, being forced to waste time while not fully developed is a sign that White and Black are not equal in this position.

16. Qd3 Rd8
17. Rad1

And white has ideas of d5, Rfe1, Bf3, b4, b5  and Black in this very position, after White's 17th move is still not fully developed and it is certain that White has the initiative driven by all his pieces that have a space advantage.  Black is not equal here in my opinion.

Thank you Tal for your input;  I appreciate your interest to see the  truth here.  I would also like to know what am I missing here.  So feel free to help me out.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #36 - 10/30/05 at 06:06:04
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That seems a good idea, BladezII.

Maybe 13...0-0 is a better try for black? I suppose black could try to defend with something like Qe7/f6/h4, Rd8 and Bd7-e8. Though, I agree that white is probably still slightly better. Maybe this 10...Bxc5-'refutation' is just a flashy inaccuracy? Undecided

Btw, why not try 13.Bd3!? instead of Be2, e.g: 13...0-0 14.0-0 Qh4?! 15.f4! (>Rf3-h3) +=
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #35 - 10/30/05 at 05:33:03
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The game that Toppy mentioned was included in the update by GM McDonald.  


"I appreciate your update on the two knights.  I use this from time to time as a surprise.  I have an observation if could kindly consider."

[Event "TCh-POL Ekstraliga"]
[Site "Lubniewice POL"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Bielczyk,J"]
[Black "Socko,B"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2346"]
[BlackElo "2615"]

1.e4 e6
2.Nf3 d5
3.Nc3 d4
4.Ne2 c5
5.c3 Nc6
6.cxd4 Nf6
7.e5 Nd7
8.dxc5 Ndxe5
9.Nxe5 Nxe5
10.d4 Bxc5
11.Be3 Bb4+
12.Nc3 Nc6
13.Be2 Qa5
14.0-0 0-0

but now

15.Qd3 !  (instead of 15.Rc1, as it ocurred in the game)

15... Rd8

[15...Bd7 16.a3]

16.a3 Bxc3
17.Qxc3 Qf5
18.Rac1   (or even 18.Bf3)

I don't see how Black has equalized here at all.  I dont think Black has solved all his opening problems yet (and it's move 18!)

White seems to have very nice game in this line.

Now for the other game--

[Event "Open"]
[Site "Lindsborg USA"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[White "Shivaji,S1"]
[Black "Shulman,Y"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2257"]
[BlackElo "2549"]
[ECO "C00"]
[Round "8"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 d4 4. Ne2 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. cxd4 Nf6 7. e5 Nd7 8. dxc5 Ndxe5 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 10. d4 Bxc5 11. Be3 Bb4+ 12. Nc3 Nc6 13. Be2 Qa5 14. O-O

14...   Bxc3  

Here is where Black takes a different path from the above game.

15. bxc3 Qxc3
16. Rc1
(instead of 16.d5 as in the game)

I am not placing an exclamation mark to this move.  This  is very logical move.  I do want to call whoever is interested to look at White's position and be very very objective when evaluating it.  Here is what I observe:

1.White is completely developed
2.White has the two bishops in an open board !
3.White commands more space.
4.White already has the initiative.
5. Compare Black's rooks as they are right now to White's.  
6. Compare Black's bishop to White's bishop (any).
7.d5 is still a positional threat after White plays Bf3.
8.after White plays Bf3, Black has a sensitive spot on c6.
9.White has two weak pawns but Black does not have time NOR  pieces to exploit any of it.  Right now it is White who has the  initiative.

You will clearly see,  Black has not solved  his problems;  he is not equal, and White has a  very nice game, with an undisputable edge in this very position.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #34 - 10/19/05 at 02:34:14
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Refuted is a strong word, especially since this line was mentioned on the previous page with little reaction from the crowd... Undecided

Anyway, white can avoid the issue with 5.Ng3 as in Klinova - Kortchnoi, equal chances but less theory is what white is looking for with this variation, and such modest requirements shouldn't be too hard to fulfill.  Wink
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #33 - 10/18/05 at 21:45:28
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Quote:
Are you suggesting the lines Baker recommends are sub-standard and aimed at a weak audience.  Wink


Ignorant as I am, that's what I assumed. I thought, it's one of those repertoire books aimed at an audience which doesn't need a rep book in the first place. Sorry. Cry

Quote:
Conclusion: Yes the sample games tend to be long, but in all cases Black has an advantage and initiative from very early on. Things definitely don't look rosy for the Two Knights at the moment.

Toppy Grin


White's IQP is posing problems in all these cases. I am unable to find a reasonable way to reach d5 or get the king side attack going. Opening the b file may not be correct. I need to investigate more.But...

Yes. I'm turning around to accepting your view. It's going to be a long grind in major piece ending.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #32 - 10/18/05 at 16:03:06
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That's a good job, Top. You scared people away. Grin

But the truth lies elsewhere. With that much of rating difference, technical wins like this (at least the first game. I haven't looked at the second) is a very natural outcome. The position was equal upto say 30 moves.

I'm sure the book is not aimed at advanced players. White gets a playable game and so does black and they both can have fun! Tongue


Are you suggesting the lines Baker recommends are sub-standard and aimed at a weak audience.  Wink

Seriously though of all the lines in Baker's book, he has the most faith and personal experience with the two knights against the french, and he more or less says so in the book. In fact he brags about his record with this line.

Regarding my game selection, yes the rating disparity is considerable, but that does not take away from the power of Blacks play. Moreover I will post the stem game where this novelty was sprung on one the Worlds strongest Two Knights specialists. Enjoy:

[Event "Wch U20"]
[Site "Nakhchivan"]
[Date "2003.06.22"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Guseinov,Gadir"]
[Black "Mamedyarov,Shakhriyar"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 d4 4.Ne2 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.cxd4 Nf6 7.e5 Nd7 8.dxc5 Ndxe5 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.d4 Bxc5 11.Be3 Bb4+ 12.Nc3 Nc6 13.a3 Ba5 14.Bb5 0-0 15.0-0 Ne7 16.Qf3 Bxc3 17.bxc3 Qa5 18.Bd3 Qxc3 19.Be4 f5 20.Bxb7 Bxb7 21.Qxb7 Nd5 22.Qa6 Qc8 23.Qd6 Rd8 24.Qg3 Qb8 25.Qf3 Qd6 26.Rfc1 Rab8 27.Bd2 Rb2 28.Bc3 Nxc3 29.Qxc3 Qxd4 30.Qxd4 Rxd4 31.Rc8+ Kf7 32.Rc7+ Kf6 33.Rxa7 Rdd2 34.Rf1 e5 35.Ra6+ Kg5 36.Ra7 Kh6 37.Re7 Re2 38.g3 Ra2 39.Ra7 e4 40.Kg2 e3
41.Re7 Rxf2+ 42.Rxf2 Rxf2+ 43.Kg1 Re2 44.h4 g5 45.hxg5+ Kh5 46.Kf1 Rf2+ 47.Ke1 Rf3 48.Ke2 Rxg3
49.Rxe3 Rxg5 50.Kf3 Rg4 51.Re2 Kg5 52.Re7 h5 53.Ra7 Rc4 54.a4 Rc3+ 55.Kg2 Rc2+ 56.Kh3 Rc3+ 57.Kg2 Ra3 58.a5 Kg4 59.Rg7+ Kf4 60.Rh7 Ra2+ 61.Kg1 h4 62.Kf1 Kg3 63.Rg7+ Kf3 64.Kg1 Rxa5 65.Kh2 f4 66.Rf7 Ke3 67.Kg2 Rg5+ 68.Kf1 Kf3 69.Ra7 Kg3 70.Ra3+ f3 71.Ra8 h3 72.Kg1 f2+ 73.Kf1 h2 0-1

Conclusion: Yes the sample games tend to be long, but in all cases Black has an advantage and initiative from very early on. Things definitely don't look rosy for the Two Knights at the moment.

Toppy Grin
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #31 - 10/18/05 at 09:35:52
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@castlerock:  you're right of course, but I still don't like the resulting position.Angry And I don't want to play the Winawer proper either... 

So maybe I'd better stick to playing the Exchange Variation, at least it leads to an open game even though it lacks central tension.  It also avoids the solid Rubinstein which I don't like to play against.

I also read the thread "I'm a typical open game player", which seems to indicate that the best way to play against the French is either 3 Nc3 or 3 exd5 Grin
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #30 - 10/18/05 at 06:40:28
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The main line (at least according to New In Chess) belongs to the Van Geet opening : 1. Nc3, d5 2. e4, e6 3....
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #29 - 10/18/05 at 03:40:39
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Quote:
If the position is just equal, I might prefer it to the main line you mentioned in your earlier post, which is also equal. 

The other reson would be that amateurs like me usually don't know much about sidelines, so my opponents might be just as ignorant of this exchange sacrifice as I was before you filled me in, thus giving me an edge.Grin


Sorry for sounding like a teacher with a cane. But, that's "Hope Chess", MK. It is always better to anticipate the best possible reply at whatever level one is playing.

In the exchange sac line, black will have all the fun in the short run and if white defends well, slight material advantage may count for something.

I prefer ...exf6.

Gomes posted by Top are worth looking at.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #28 - 10/18/05 at 03:32:08
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Quote:
The oft quoted Two Knights line recommended in Chris Bakers rep book has now been more or less refuted. Enjoy. Grin


That's a good job, Top. You scared people away. Grin

But the truth lies elsewhere. With that much of rating difference, technical wins like this (at least the first game. I haven't looked at the second) is a very natural outcome. The position was equal upto say 30 moves.

I'm sure the book is not aimed at advanced players. White gets a playable game and so does black and they both can have fun! Tongue
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #27 - 10/17/05 at 17:11:39
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The oft quoted Two Knights line recommended in Chris Bakers rep book has now been more or less refuted. Enjoy. Grin


[Event "TCh-POL Ekstraliga"]
[Site "Lubniewice POL"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Bielczyk,J"]
[Black "Socko,B"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2346"]
[BlackElo "2615"]
[ECO "C00"]
[Round "8"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nc3 d4 4. Ne2 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. cxd4 Nf6! 7. e5 Nd7 8. dxc5 Ndxe5 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 10. d4 Bxc5!! 11. Be3 Bb4+ 12. Nc3 Nc6 13. Be2 Qa5 14. Qb3 e5 15. dxe5 Be6 16. Qc2 Bf5 17. Qb3 Be6 18. Qc2 Qxe5 19. O-O O-O 20. Rac1 Nd4 21. Bxd4 Qxd4 22. a3 Be7 23. Bf3 Rab8 24. Rcd1 Qc5 25. Be4 Kh8 26. Bd5 Bxd5 27. Rxd5 Qc6 28. Rfd1 Rbd8 29. Qe4 Rxd5 30. Rxd5 Bxa3 31. bxa3 Qxc3 32. Rd1 Qc7 33. h3 Kg8 34. Qa4 a6 35. Rd7 Qc8 36. Qd4 b5 37. Qd6 h6 38. f4 Re8 39. Kh2 Qc4 40. f5 Qe4 41. Ra7 Re5 42. Qd2 Rd5 0-1

[Event "Open"]
[Site "Lindsborg USA"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[White "Shivaji,S1"]
[Black "Shulman,Y"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2257"]
[BlackElo "2549"]
[ECO "C00"]
[Round "8"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 d4 4. Ne2 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. cxd4 Nf6 7. e5 Nd7 8. dxc5 Ndxe5 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 10. d4 Bxc5 11. Be3 Bb4+ 12. Nc3 Nc6 13. Be2 Qa5 14. O-O Bxc3
15. bxc3 Qxc3 16. d5 exd5 17. Rc1 Qa5 18. Bc5 Be6 19. Qb3 O-O-O 20. Rb1 b6 21. Bb5 Kb722. Bxc6+ Kxc6 23. Bb4 Qa6 24. a4 Kb7 25. a5 b5 26. Qg3 g6 27. Rfc1 Rc8 28. Qh4 h5 29. h3 Rhe8 30. Qf6 Ka8 31. Bc5 Rc6 32. Rc3 Rec8 33. Rbc1 Qxa5 34. Bb4 Qb6 35. Ra1 Rc4 36. Rca3 Rc1+ 37. Kh2 Rxa1 38. Rxa1 Rc4 39. Bd2 b4 40. Bf4 b3 41. Qe5 Rxf4 42. Qxf4 b2 43. Rb1 Bf5 44. Re1 b1=Q 45. Re8+ Qb8 0-1

Conclusion: White needs a better system verses the French.

Toppylov Grin
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #26 - 10/17/05 at 09:18:59
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Oops, I wasn't aware of this exchange sacrifice, so thanks for pointing it out to me. 

Would you say Black is equal or does he have the advantage?  If the position is just equal, I might prefer it to the main line you mentioned in your earlier post, which is also equal. 

One reason would be I don't like my K-side pawns being messed up by Bxg3, especially when Q-side castling would be hazardous as it would be in this position.  The other reson would be that amateurs like me usually don't know much about sidelines, so my opponents might be just as ignorant of this exchange sacrifice as I was before you filled me in, thus giving me an edge.Grin
  
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