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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc! (Read 20902 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #55 - 11/02/05 at 02:23:33
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Taljechin,

As you know, you quoted me out of context, but that's ok.  I was hoping for a discussion of the position rather than the move order.  Since most of the rest want to focus on the move order, it looks like I'm outvoted.
  
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castlerock
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #54 - 11/01/05 at 02:33:06
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Quote:
The icon with the blue arrow '->' gives the quote tags, where you can paste copied text - but not giving the time, poster and date as with clicking Quote instead of Reply...


Thanks TalJechin. Got it. Smiley
  

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BladezII
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #53 - 11/01/05 at 01:53:00
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Where did Sacapawn go ?  This is getting interesting now with the last lines for White I posted.
  

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BladezII
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #52 - 10/31/05 at 15:04:10
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Well, Smyslov_Fan, wasn't it you who brought up 3..d4 in the first place?  Tongue



I echo what TalJeching said.  Smyslov_Fan, you brought the issue up and TopNotch posted some games on that also which by the way, was one of the subjects of the french section updates in chesspublishing.com.

Also the discussion about this is going well and I have also included GM McDonald in it (by email).  

Live and let live     Shocked
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #51 - 10/31/05 at 07:45:37
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Eureka! Sorry. Thanks for this TalJechin.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #50 - 10/31/05 at 07:44:25
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[quote]The icon with the blue arrow '->' gives the quote tags, where you can paste copied text - but not giving the time, poster and date as with clicking Quote instead of Reply... [/quote]

It usually goes wrong when I try it, so just trying again ...
  
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TalJechin
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #49 - 10/31/05 at 06:37:11
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The icon with the blue arrow '->' gives the quote tags, where you can paste copied text - but not giving the time, poster and date as with clicking Quote instead of Reply...
  
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castlerock
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #48 - 10/31/05 at 04:37:22
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Just a quick question. How do you guys manage quotes from two different posts? I mean, is there a way with which you can avoid multiple windows and cut-paste?

Sorry for being off topic.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #47 - 10/31/05 at 04:23:57
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Just an observation:  This isn't the line under discussion in the title of the thread.


Quote:
He could also play 3...de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 with fine play. or even 3....d4! The cost of avoiding the Winawer is just too high.


Well, Smyslov_Fan, wasn't it you who brought up 3..d4 in the first place?  Tongue
  
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castlerock
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #46 - 10/31/05 at 03:55:49
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Quote:
Just an observation:  This isn't the line under discussion in the title of the thread.


LOL Cheesy
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #45 - 10/31/05 at 02:29:50
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OK, like I said, White's position enjoys more space AND better development and the initiative, so...  here are some ideas which help to show that those reasons take away Black's equality--

1. e4 e6
2. Nf3 d5
3. Nc3 d4
4. Ne2 c5
5. c3 Nc6
6.cxd4 Nf6
7. e5 Nd7
8. dxc5 Ndxe5
9. Nxe5 Nxe5
10. d4 Bxc5
11. Be3 Bb4+
12. Nc3 Nc6
13. Be2



Just an observation:  This isn't the line under discussion in the title of the thread.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #44 - 10/30/05 at 19:07:50
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OK, like I said, White's position enjoys more space AND better development and the initiative, so...  here are some ideas which help to show that those reasons take away Black's equality--

1. e4 e6
2. Nf3 d5
3. Nc3 d4
4. Ne2 c5
5. c3 Nc6
6.cxd4 Nf6
7. e5 Nd7
8. dxc5 Ndxe5
9. Nxe5 Nxe5
10. d4 Bxc5
11. Be3 Bb4+
12. Nc3 Nc6
13. Be2

Another idea submitted by TalJeching is
(13. Bd3 O-O 14. O-O has to be considered also.)

13... Qa5

(13... O-O 14. O-O Qe7 15. a3 Bd6
16. Qd3 Rd8 17. Rad1)

14. O-O O-O

(14... Bxc3 15. bxc3 Qxc3 16. Rc1 Qa3 17. Bf3
Bd7 18. d5 Ne5 19. Be4)

15. Qb3

My improvement over Qd3.

15...   Rd8
16.Rfd1

Take a moment to notice Black's opening problems are not yet solved.  What do you suggest here for Black?

Look, I  can be wrong, that's not any news.  But I want to show that the position is such that  makes me doubt highly that Black  is equal with White here.



« Last Edit: 10/31/05 at 15:07:04 by BladezII »  

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Sacapawn
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #43 - 10/30/05 at 18:27:15
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I have no idea why you think White should be any better here. You have to give some variation or winning idea.
  
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BladezII
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #42 - 10/30/05 at 16:24:14
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Sacapawn,

a) 22.Bxa7 Nd7  23..Bd4 Rxa3

24.f4 (taking away the e5 post for the Knight AND preparing for Bf3 and Rb1.  Again, Black is not equal here.  White keeps his advantage and keeps his pressure.


Frankly, I am now less convinced that White is THAT much better here.  
« Last Edit: 10/30/05 at 18:36:34 by BladezII »  

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Sacapawn
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #41 - 10/30/05 at 14:24:03
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20.Rad1 Rxd1+ 21.Rxd1 Be6

and now both

a) 22.Bxa7 Nd7 23.Be3 Rxa3 24.Bb5 h6 25.h3 Ne5

and

b) 22.f4 Nd7 23.Bf3 Rc8

look drawish
  
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