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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc! (Read 20900 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #55 - 11/02/05 at 02:23:33
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Taljechin,

As you know, you quoted me out of context, but that's ok.  I was hoping for a discussion of the position rather than the move order.  Since most of the rest want to focus on the move order, it looks like I'm outvoted.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #54 - 11/01/05 at 02:33:06
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Quote:
The icon with the blue arrow '->' gives the quote tags, where you can paste copied text - but not giving the time, poster and date as with clicking Quote instead of Reply...


Thanks TalJechin. Got it. Smiley
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #53 - 11/01/05 at 01:53:00
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Where did Sacapawn go ?  This is getting interesting now with the last lines for White I posted.
  

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BladezII
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #52 - 10/31/05 at 15:04:10
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Well, Smyslov_Fan, wasn't it you who brought up 3..d4 in the first place?  Tongue



I echo what TalJeching said.  Smyslov_Fan, you brought the issue up and TopNotch posted some games on that also which by the way, was one of the subjects of the french section updates in chesspublishing.com.

Also the discussion about this is going well and I have also included GM McDonald in it (by email).  

Live and let live     Shocked
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #51 - 10/31/05 at 07:45:37
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Eureka! Sorry. Thanks for this TalJechin.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #50 - 10/31/05 at 07:44:25
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[quote]The icon with the blue arrow '->' gives the quote tags, where you can paste copied text - but not giving the time, poster and date as with clicking Quote instead of Reply... [/quote]

It usually goes wrong when I try it, so just trying again ...
  
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TalJechin
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #49 - 10/31/05 at 06:37:11
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The icon with the blue arrow '->' gives the quote tags, where you can paste copied text - but not giving the time, poster and date as with clicking Quote instead of Reply...
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #48 - 10/31/05 at 04:37:22
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Just a quick question. How do you guys manage quotes from two different posts? I mean, is there a way with which you can avoid multiple windows and cut-paste?

Sorry for being off topic.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #47 - 10/31/05 at 04:23:57
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Quote:
Just an observation:  This isn't the line under discussion in the title of the thread.


Quote:
He could also play 3...de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 with fine play. or even 3....d4! The cost of avoiding the Winawer is just too high.


Well, Smyslov_Fan, wasn't it you who brought up 3..d4 in the first place?  Tongue
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #46 - 10/31/05 at 03:55:49
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Quote:
Just an observation:  This isn't the line under discussion in the title of the thread.


LOL Cheesy
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #45 - 10/31/05 at 02:29:50
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OK, like I said, White's position enjoys more space AND better development and the initiative, so...  here are some ideas which help to show that those reasons take away Black's equality--

1. e4 e6
2. Nf3 d5
3. Nc3 d4
4. Ne2 c5
5. c3 Nc6
6.cxd4 Nf6
7. e5 Nd7
8. dxc5 Ndxe5
9. Nxe5 Nxe5
10. d4 Bxc5
11. Be3 Bb4+
12. Nc3 Nc6
13. Be2



Just an observation:  This isn't the line under discussion in the title of the thread.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #44 - 10/30/05 at 19:07:50
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OK, like I said, White's position enjoys more space AND better development and the initiative, so...  here are some ideas which help to show that those reasons take away Black's equality--

1. e4 e6
2. Nf3 d5
3. Nc3 d4
4. Ne2 c5
5. c3 Nc6
6.cxd4 Nf6
7. e5 Nd7
8. dxc5 Ndxe5
9. Nxe5 Nxe5
10. d4 Bxc5
11. Be3 Bb4+
12. Nc3 Nc6
13. Be2

Another idea submitted by TalJeching is
(13. Bd3 O-O 14. O-O has to be considered also.)

13... Qa5

(13... O-O 14. O-O Qe7 15. a3 Bd6
16. Qd3 Rd8 17. Rad1)

14. O-O O-O

(14... Bxc3 15. bxc3 Qxc3 16. Rc1 Qa3 17. Bf3
Bd7 18. d5 Ne5 19. Be4)

15. Qb3

My improvement over Qd3.

15...   Rd8
16.Rfd1

Take a moment to notice Black's opening problems are not yet solved.  What do you suggest here for Black?

Look, I  can be wrong, that's not any news.  But I want to show that the position is such that  makes me doubt highly that Black  is equal with White here.



« Last Edit: 10/31/05 at 15:07:04 by BladezII »  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #43 - 10/30/05 at 18:27:15
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I have no idea why you think White should be any better here. You have to give some variation or winning idea.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #42 - 10/30/05 at 16:24:14
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Sacapawn,

a) 22.Bxa7 Nd7  23..Bd4 Rxa3

24.f4 (taking away the e5 post for the Knight AND preparing for Bf3 and Rb1.  Again, Black is not equal here.  White keeps his advantage and keeps his pressure.


Frankly, I am now less convinced that White is THAT much better here.  
« Last Edit: 10/30/05 at 18:36:34 by BladezII »  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #41 - 10/30/05 at 14:24:03
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20.Rad1 Rxd1+ 21.Rxd1 Be6

and now both

a) 22.Bxa7 Nd7 23.Be3 Rxa3 24.Bb5 h6 25.h3 Ne5

and

b) 22.f4 Nd7 23.Bf3 Rc8

look drawish
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #40 - 10/30/05 at 13:02:57
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17. Qxc3

and here

17.... Qxc3

This is the move suggested by Sacapawn.

18. bxc3 e5
19. dxe5 Nxe5
20. Rad1 Re8

(20... Bg4 21. Rxd8+ Rxd8 22. f3 Bf5 23. Bxa7 Rd2 24. Rd1 (This is a technical win for white.)

21. Bb5 Nc6
(21... Rf8 22. Bc5)

22. Bxc6  bxc6

23. Rd6

White is the one playing for the win here.  Black will be fighting to save his life since rooks are still on board.

The following is what Sacapawn wrote:
"After 17.-,Qxc3 (instead of 17.-,Qf5) 18.bxc3 e5 19.dxe5 Nxe5 White has the bishop pair but also the worse pawn structure. Looks equal to me. "

Well, before he said this about the position, I said the following about another similar position from another variation--

"White has two weak pawns but Black does not have time NOR  pieces to exploit any of it.  Right now it is White who has the  initiative.

You will clearly see,  Black has not solved  his problems;  he is not equal, and White has a  very nice game, with an undisputable edge in this very position. "

The same, as you can see, applies here.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #39 - 10/30/05 at 11:23:09
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Quote:
[Event "TCh-POL Ekstraliga"] 
[Site "Lubniewice POL"] 
[Date "2005.??.??"] 
[White "Bielczyk,J"] 
[Black "Socko,B"] 
[Result "0-1"] 
[WhiteElo "2346"] 
[BlackElo "2615"] 

1.e4 e6 
2.Nf3 d5 
3.Nc3 d4 
4.Ne2 c5 
5.c3 Nc6 
6.cxd4 Nf6 
7.e5 Nd7 
8.dxc5 Ndxe5 
9.Nxe5 Nxe5 
10.d4 Bxc5 
11.Be3 Bb4+ 
12.Nc3 Nc6 
13.Be2 Qa5 
14.0-0 0-0 

but now 

15.Qd3 !  (instead of 15.Rc1, as it ocurred in the game)

15... Rd8

[15...Bd7 16.a3] 

16.a3 Bxc3 
17.Qxc3 Qf5 
18.Rac1   (or even 18.Bf3)

I don't see how Black has equalized here at all.  I dont think Black has solved all his opening problems yet (and it's move 18!) 

White seems to have very nice game in this line.


After 17.-,Qxc3 (instead of 17.-,Qf5) 18.bxc3 e5 19.dxe5 Nxe5 White has the bishop pair but also the worse pawn structure. Looks equal to me.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #38 - 10/30/05 at 09:45:20
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In response to the posting that sparked this thread; my book states that white "unquestionably has the harder time of it in practice" after following the mainline until move 10.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #37 - 10/30/05 at 06:42:51
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1. e4 e6
2. Nf3 d5
3. Nc3 d4
4. Ne2 c5
5. c3 Nc6
6. cxd4 Nf6
7. e5 Nd7
8. dxc5 Ndxe5
9. Nxe5 Nxe5
10. d4 Bxc5
11. Be3 Bb4+
12. Nc3  Nc6
13. Be2

(13. Bd3 O-O 14. O-O

I really can't complain for this idea.  I still prefer to develop the bishop to e2 so then I can place it on the long diagonal and leave the d-file clear for the heavy pieces.  White, sooner or later, might play d5 and with Bf3 and a battery on the d-file and a rook on the e-file, where Black will have his Queen after your idea of  ....Qe7, this set up for White would be my preference.)


13...  O-O
This is your idea for Black  here.  Let's see--

14. O-O Qe7

Another wasted tempo

15. a3 Bd6  

Black had to waste a tempo.  However, white's 15.a3 is a useful move in this type of position.  Black, being forced to waste time while not fully developed is a sign that White and Black are not equal in this position.

16. Qd3 Rd8
17. Rad1

And white has ideas of d5, Rfe1, Bf3, b4, b5  and Black in this very position, after White's 17th move is still not fully developed and it is certain that White has the initiative driven by all his pieces that have a space advantage.  Black is not equal here in my opinion.

Thank you Tal for your input;  I appreciate your interest to see the  truth here.  I would also like to know what am I missing here.  So feel free to help me out.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #36 - 10/30/05 at 06:06:04
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That seems a good idea, BladezII.

Maybe 13...0-0 is a better try for black? I suppose black could try to defend with something like Qe7/f6/h4, Rd8 and Bd7-e8. Though, I agree that white is probably still slightly better. Maybe this 10...Bxc5-'refutation' is just a flashy inaccuracy? Undecided

Btw, why not try 13.Bd3!? instead of Be2, e.g: 13...0-0 14.0-0 Qh4?! 15.f4! (>Rf3-h3) +=
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #35 - 10/30/05 at 05:33:03
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The game that Toppy mentioned was included in the update by GM McDonald.  


"I appreciate your update on the two knights.  I use this from time to time as a surprise.  I have an observation if could kindly consider."

[Event "TCh-POL Ekstraliga"]
[Site "Lubniewice POL"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Bielczyk,J"]
[Black "Socko,B"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2346"]
[BlackElo "2615"]

1.e4 e6
2.Nf3 d5
3.Nc3 d4
4.Ne2 c5
5.c3 Nc6
6.cxd4 Nf6
7.e5 Nd7
8.dxc5 Ndxe5
9.Nxe5 Nxe5
10.d4 Bxc5
11.Be3 Bb4+
12.Nc3 Nc6
13.Be2 Qa5
14.0-0 0-0

but now

15.Qd3 !  (instead of 15.Rc1, as it ocurred in the game)

15... Rd8

[15...Bd7 16.a3]

16.a3 Bxc3
17.Qxc3 Qf5
18.Rac1   (or even 18.Bf3)

I don't see how Black has equalized here at all.  I dont think Black has solved all his opening problems yet (and it's move 18!)

White seems to have very nice game in this line.

Now for the other game--

[Event "Open"]
[Site "Lindsborg USA"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[White "Shivaji,S1"]
[Black "Shulman,Y"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2257"]
[BlackElo "2549"]
[ECO "C00"]
[Round "8"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 d4 4. Ne2 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. cxd4 Nf6 7. e5 Nd7 8. dxc5 Ndxe5 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 10. d4 Bxc5 11. Be3 Bb4+ 12. Nc3 Nc6 13. Be2 Qa5 14. O-O

14...   Bxc3  

Here is where Black takes a different path from the above game.

15. bxc3 Qxc3
16. Rc1
(instead of 16.d5 as in the game)

I am not placing an exclamation mark to this move.  This  is very logical move.  I do want to call whoever is interested to look at White's position and be very very objective when evaluating it.  Here is what I observe:

1.White is completely developed
2.White has the two bishops in an open board !
3.White commands more space.
4.White already has the initiative.
5. Compare Black's rooks as they are right now to White's.  
6. Compare Black's bishop to White's bishop (any).
7.d5 is still a positional threat after White plays Bf3.
8.after White plays Bf3, Black has a sensitive spot on c6.
9.White has two weak pawns but Black does not have time NOR  pieces to exploit any of it.  Right now it is White who has the  initiative.

You will clearly see,  Black has not solved  his problems;  he is not equal, and White has a  very nice game, with an undisputable edge in this very position.



  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #34 - 10/19/05 at 02:34:14
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Refuted is a strong word, especially since this line was mentioned on the previous page with little reaction from the crowd... Undecided

Anyway, white can avoid the issue with 5.Ng3 as in Klinova - Kortchnoi, equal chances but less theory is what white is looking for with this variation, and such modest requirements shouldn't be too hard to fulfill.  Wink
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #33 - 10/18/05 at 21:45:28
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Quote:
Are you suggesting the lines Baker recommends are sub-standard and aimed at a weak audience.  Wink


Ignorant as I am, that's what I assumed. I thought, it's one of those repertoire books aimed at an audience which doesn't need a rep book in the first place. Sorry. Cry

Quote:
Conclusion: Yes the sample games tend to be long, but in all cases Black has an advantage and initiative from very early on. Things definitely don't look rosy for the Two Knights at the moment.

Toppy Grin


White's IQP is posing problems in all these cases. I am unable to find a reasonable way to reach d5 or get the king side attack going. Opening the b file may not be correct. I need to investigate more.But...

Yes. I'm turning around to accepting your view. It's going to be a long grind in major piece ending.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #32 - 10/18/05 at 16:03:06
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Quote:
That's a good job, Top. You scared people away. Grin

But the truth lies elsewhere. With that much of rating difference, technical wins like this (at least the first game. I haven't looked at the second) is a very natural outcome. The position was equal upto say 30 moves.

I'm sure the book is not aimed at advanced players. White gets a playable game and so does black and they both can have fun! Tongue


Are you suggesting the lines Baker recommends are sub-standard and aimed at a weak audience.  Wink

Seriously though of all the lines in Baker's book, he has the most faith and personal experience with the two knights against the french, and he more or less says so in the book. In fact he brags about his record with this line.

Regarding my game selection, yes the rating disparity is considerable, but that does not take away from the power of Blacks play. Moreover I will post the stem game where this novelty was sprung on one the Worlds strongest Two Knights specialists. Enjoy:

[Event "Wch U20"]
[Site "Nakhchivan"]
[Date "2003.06.22"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Guseinov,Gadir"]
[Black "Mamedyarov,Shakhriyar"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 d4 4.Ne2 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.cxd4 Nf6 7.e5 Nd7 8.dxc5 Ndxe5 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.d4 Bxc5 11.Be3 Bb4+ 12.Nc3 Nc6 13.a3 Ba5 14.Bb5 0-0 15.0-0 Ne7 16.Qf3 Bxc3 17.bxc3 Qa5 18.Bd3 Qxc3 19.Be4 f5 20.Bxb7 Bxb7 21.Qxb7 Nd5 22.Qa6 Qc8 23.Qd6 Rd8 24.Qg3 Qb8 25.Qf3 Qd6 26.Rfc1 Rab8 27.Bd2 Rb2 28.Bc3 Nxc3 29.Qxc3 Qxd4 30.Qxd4 Rxd4 31.Rc8+ Kf7 32.Rc7+ Kf6 33.Rxa7 Rdd2 34.Rf1 e5 35.Ra6+ Kg5 36.Ra7 Kh6 37.Re7 Re2 38.g3 Ra2 39.Ra7 e4 40.Kg2 e3
41.Re7 Rxf2+ 42.Rxf2 Rxf2+ 43.Kg1 Re2 44.h4 g5 45.hxg5+ Kh5 46.Kf1 Rf2+ 47.Ke1 Rf3 48.Ke2 Rxg3
49.Rxe3 Rxg5 50.Kf3 Rg4 51.Re2 Kg5 52.Re7 h5 53.Ra7 Rc4 54.a4 Rc3+ 55.Kg2 Rc2+ 56.Kh3 Rc3+ 57.Kg2 Ra3 58.a5 Kg4 59.Rg7+ Kf4 60.Rh7 Ra2+ 61.Kg1 h4 62.Kf1 Kg3 63.Rg7+ Kf3 64.Kg1 Rxa5 65.Kh2 f4 66.Rf7 Ke3 67.Kg2 Rg5+ 68.Kf1 Kf3 69.Ra7 Kg3 70.Ra3+ f3 71.Ra8 h3 72.Kg1 f2+ 73.Kf1 h2 0-1

Conclusion: Yes the sample games tend to be long, but in all cases Black has an advantage and initiative from very early on. Things definitely don't look rosy for the Two Knights at the moment.

Toppy Grin
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #31 - 10/18/05 at 09:35:52
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@castlerock:  you're right of course, but I still don't like the resulting position.Angry And I don't want to play the Winawer proper either... 

So maybe I'd better stick to playing the Exchange Variation, at least it leads to an open game even though it lacks central tension.  It also avoids the solid Rubinstein which I don't like to play against.

I also read the thread "I'm a typical open game player", which seems to indicate that the best way to play against the French is either 3 Nc3 or 3 exd5 Grin
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #30 - 10/18/05 at 06:40:28
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The main line (at least according to New In Chess) belongs to the Van Geet opening : 1. Nc3, d5 2. e4, e6 3....
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #29 - 10/18/05 at 03:40:39
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Quote:
If the position is just equal, I might prefer it to the main line you mentioned in your earlier post, which is also equal. 

The other reson would be that amateurs like me usually don't know much about sidelines, so my opponents might be just as ignorant of this exchange sacrifice as I was before you filled me in, thus giving me an edge.Grin


Sorry for sounding like a teacher with a cane. But, that's "Hope Chess", MK. It is always better to anticipate the best possible reply at whatever level one is playing.

In the exchange sac line, black will have all the fun in the short run and if white defends well, slight material advantage may count for something.

I prefer ...exf6.

Gomes posted by Top are worth looking at.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #28 - 10/18/05 at 03:32:08
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The oft quoted Two Knights line recommended in Chris Bakers rep book has now been more or less refuted. Enjoy. Grin


That's a good job, Top. You scared people away. Grin

But the truth lies elsewhere. With that much of rating difference, technical wins like this (at least the first game. I haven't looked at the second) is a very natural outcome. The position was equal upto say 30 moves.

I'm sure the book is not aimed at advanced players. White gets a playable game and so does black and they both can have fun! Tongue
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #27 - 10/17/05 at 17:11:39
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The oft quoted Two Knights line recommended in Chris Bakers rep book has now been more or less refuted. Enjoy. Grin


[Event "TCh-POL Ekstraliga"]
[Site "Lubniewice POL"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Bielczyk,J"]
[Black "Socko,B"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2346"]
[BlackElo "2615"]
[ECO "C00"]
[Round "8"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nc3 d4 4. Ne2 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. cxd4 Nf6! 7. e5 Nd7 8. dxc5 Ndxe5 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 10. d4 Bxc5!! 11. Be3 Bb4+ 12. Nc3 Nc6 13. Be2 Qa5 14. Qb3 e5 15. dxe5 Be6 16. Qc2 Bf5 17. Qb3 Be6 18. Qc2 Qxe5 19. O-O O-O 20. Rac1 Nd4 21. Bxd4 Qxd4 22. a3 Be7 23. Bf3 Rab8 24. Rcd1 Qc5 25. Be4 Kh8 26. Bd5 Bxd5 27. Rxd5 Qc6 28. Rfd1 Rbd8 29. Qe4 Rxd5 30. Rxd5 Bxa3 31. bxa3 Qxc3 32. Rd1 Qc7 33. h3 Kg8 34. Qa4 a6 35. Rd7 Qc8 36. Qd4 b5 37. Qd6 h6 38. f4 Re8 39. Kh2 Qc4 40. f5 Qe4 41. Ra7 Re5 42. Qd2 Rd5 0-1

[Event "Open"]
[Site "Lindsborg USA"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[White "Shivaji,S1"]
[Black "Shulman,Y"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2257"]
[BlackElo "2549"]
[ECO "C00"]
[Round "8"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 d4 4. Ne2 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. cxd4 Nf6 7. e5 Nd7 8. dxc5 Ndxe5 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 10. d4 Bxc5 11. Be3 Bb4+ 12. Nc3 Nc6 13. Be2 Qa5 14. O-O Bxc3
15. bxc3 Qxc3 16. d5 exd5 17. Rc1 Qa5 18. Bc5 Be6 19. Qb3 O-O-O 20. Rb1 b6 21. Bb5 Kb722. Bxc6+ Kxc6 23. Bb4 Qa6 24. a4 Kb7 25. a5 b5 26. Qg3 g6 27. Rfc1 Rc8 28. Qh4 h5 29. h3 Rhe8 30. Qf6 Ka8 31. Bc5 Rc6 32. Rc3 Rec8 33. Rbc1 Qxa5 34. Bb4 Qb6 35. Ra1 Rc4 36. Rca3 Rc1+ 37. Kh2 Rxa1 38. Rxa1 Rc4 39. Bd2 b4 40. Bf4 b3 41. Qe5 Rxf4 42. Qxf4 b2 43. Rb1 Bf5 44. Re1 b1=Q 45. Re8+ Qb8 0-1

Conclusion: White needs a better system verses the French.

Toppylov Grin
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #26 - 10/17/05 at 09:18:59
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Oops, I wasn't aware of this exchange sacrifice, so thanks for pointing it out to me. 

Would you say Black is equal or does he have the advantage?  If the position is just equal, I might prefer it to the main line you mentioned in your earlier post, which is also equal. 

One reason would be I don't like my K-side pawns being messed up by Bxg3, especially when Q-side castling would be hazardous as it would be in this position.  The other reson would be that amateurs like me usually don't know much about sidelines, so my opponents might be just as ignorant of this exchange sacrifice as I was before you filled me in, thus giving me an edge.Grin
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #25 - 10/17/05 at 07:59:18
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@castlerock:  does White have to play 12 exf6? How about 12 Qe2, keeping Black cramped and the b8-a2 diagonal closed?



No. White need not. But if white chooses to play 12.Qe2 there is that standard exchange sacrifice available for black, with the compensation of d4 pawn and a mobile centre against no centre.

Rook for a piece and pawn is normally unclear and this coupled with a mobile center is sufficient compensation.

I wouldn't advise my students to play this way as white. Computers may feel otherwise, though.

Here is a line for your consideration. If you like white, you may play 12.Qe2. I don't like it. Computer may like it. But, please bear in mind that computers don't evaluate positions as unclear. It is a human concept.

1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.Ne2 Ne7 6.c3 Ba5 7.d4 0-0 8.a3 Bc7 9.Ng3 cxd4 10.cxd4 Nbc6 11.Bd3 f6 12.Qe2 fxe5 13.dxe5 Rxf3 14.Qxf3 Nxe5 15.Qe3 Nxd3+ 16.Qxd3 e5


  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #24 - 10/17/05 at 06:53:25
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@castlerock:  does White have to play 12 exf6? How about 12 Qe2, keeping Black cramped and the b8-a2 diagonal closed?

Anyone else out there having comments on this and on my initial post?

Thanks a bunch! Smiley
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #23 - 10/16/05 at 23:49:02
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After 1 e4 e6 2 Nf3 d5 3 Nc3 Bb4, Chris Baker gives 4 e5 c5 ("best") 5 Ne2 Ne7 6 c3  Ba5 7 d4 0-0 8 a3 Bc7 9 Ng3 cxd4 10 cxd4 Nbc6 11 Bd3 and concludes "White has better piece placement and more space"
/


11...f6 appears to be a straight forward equaliser to me. After 12.exf6 Rxf6 13.Bg5 Rf7 14.0-0 or 14.Qe2 black has the luxury of including h6. Black can actually strengthen king side light squares with ...Bxg3.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #22 - 10/16/05 at 16:28:05
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After 1 e4 e6 2 Nf3 d5 3 Nc3 Bb4, Chris Baker gives 4 e5 c5 ("best") 5 Ne2 Ne7 6 c3  Ba5 7 d4 0-0 8 a3 Bc7 9 Ng3 cxd4 10 cxd4 Nbc6 11 Bd3 and concludes "White has better piece placement and more space"

Another variation goes 7 d4 cxd4 8 Nexd4 Nbc6 9 Bd3 Nxd4 10 Nxd4 Nc6 11 Nxc6 bxc6 12 Qg4 Kf8 and White looks OK, although Black has eased his position a bit through exchanges.

How does play proceed from here? Are there other ideas for White (and Black) here?  As far as I know, there's not much litterature on it. Undecided
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #21 - 10/16/05 at 03:27:01
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To Smyslov_Fan: OK.. I'll post about 16...e5 if I find some analysis about it.

To urusov: I don't know why but Korchnoi played a6 in his game versus Klinova in 2005. Do you know the idea ? Is it only to force White for a Philidor pawn setup with bishop on e2 and avoid the knight pin with Bb5 ?

For Two knights's variation, I don't resist to mention Bellon's idea (Taulbut 's book about the French and ECG = Encyclopedia of Chess Games) in Bellon-Korchnoi,Palma 1972: 5.b4.  ECG gives unclear after 19 moves in Gurgenidze-Vaganian,URSS 1974

There is another funny line: 5.c3 Nc6!? (maybe Nf6! is the main line) 6.cxd4 cxd4 7.Qa4 b5!? (jackal=Adrian Skelton on NJ chess forum) 8.Qxb5 Bd7 9.Nexd4.

When White plays Ng3, Black can try an unorthodox  attack: 5.c3 dxc3 6.bxc3 Nc6 7.Ng3 Nf6 8.Bb5 Bd7 9.oo h5!? (supermarin and fox on france.echecs.com forum) 10.d3 h4 11.Ne2 h3 12.g3 Be7 13.Bxc6 Bxc6 14.Ne5 Qc7 15.Nxc6 Qxc6 16.f3 ooo unclear. I like the idea because after Bb5, White will often exchange his light square bishop and this kind of h-pawn attack might give advantage on light squares for Black.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #20 - 10/15/05 at 21:19:13
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I have posted a little java applet of my French Two Knights games online at:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/summer05/french-2N-games.htm

I rather enjoy the ...d4 lines myself as White, mostly because I play the Nimzovich Defense as Black and like to think of these positions as "reversed Nimzovich" games where I have an extra tempo or even two if Black plays ...e6-e5 later (which he usually gets in one go as White).  For instance, one of my games went:

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 d4 4. Ne2 c5 5. Ng3 Nc6 6. Bb5 Qc7 7. O-O Bd7 8. c3 e5 9. cxd4 cxd4 10. d3 Be7 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. Nf5 Bxf5 13. exf5 Nd7

and now I had a number of good ideas, including Re1 and Rc1, but I foolishly played 14.Ng5?! and was lucky to get a draw.

One thing I like about the French 2N is its flexibility.  After all, you could play a number of ways against ...d4, including going for a reversed Pirc with Nb1!? followed by d3, g3, Bg2 etc or a KIA with Ne2 followed by d3, g3, Bg2 etc. -- or the traditional c3 lines which still leave White with more play in the center.

In the ...Nf6 lines White also has lots of choices, including 1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.d4 c5 and now there are a number of playable alternatives, including 6.Bb5, 6.Bg5, 6.dxc5, and 6.Ne2.

Objectively speaking, the French 2N is equal.  But the positions it leads to are unusual and tend to get Black away from famiiar territory and into places that you know well as White.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #19 - 10/15/05 at 13:24:08
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I have played the .3..d4 in internet blitz. I can safely say based on my experience say that black is at least equal, and can usually play with several different reasonable set up against most white lines. The one exception is 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 d4 4.Ne2 c5 5 c3 Nf6! which is sharp and somewhat forced, but still leads to good and interesting play for black. This makes it unlikely for white to use some sharp fritz preparation to any great effect. The positions are complex and pleasant and offers black excellent chances to play an interesting game.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #18 - 10/15/05 at 09:09:33
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It's great to see a thread about a real main line opening receiving some attention here! 

Dom, I'll have to go back and do some research about the exact move order.  It's entirely possible that Psakhis mixed up the move order for any number of reasons.  I've always been a bit suspicious of the entire Bd7-e8-f7 or g6 plan for Black in the French, but this may be the one case where that classical plan really does make sense.  It's usually just too slow with too little reward attached to it. 

Which is why I like your 16...e5 idea much more!  I'll give it a few test runs, but it's much more in keeping with how I like to play the French!  If you have any specific games I'd really appreciate it!
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #17 - 10/15/05 at 04:05:08
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To elspringer: about the "Jackal attak", Glenn Flear wrote one survey about the book in NiC YB 72 ("The way of the Jackal"), and it's a good idea to read the crystal clear analysis (you can try to post him a question in the DaringDefence section). The Jackal has been subject of one updates in the French section and one thread in current forum.

I played the start of the line in my first FirstSaturday tournament in Budapest, and I wooked on the line after going back home.

Yes, Spassky-Petrossain,Moscow 1966 (Watson) is one good reference. 16....Qf7!? was the move of the game but I have recorded 16...e5!

The position after 13...Rae8 was subject of one update in Chesspublishing French section, with 14.Kh1!?  Rogers-Witt,2005

I don't think that 11...Qe7 is the best move, and 11...Bd7 was the move in Spassky-Petrossian game. Now if  12.Qe2 (in order to transpose) then 12...Nd4!? (instead of 12..Qe7) = Motwani-Webster,Gausdal 1992

After 12.Bg3 Be8 (common idea in the variation to control h5, to prepare Ch5, to exchange dark square bishop ... same idea in 11...g6 ; 11...Qe8 Watson . Compare with position in Tarrash variation with f6 when White plays Fg5-Fh4-Fg3 ) ; 12.Nxc6 Bxc6 13.Qe2 Ne4 or 13...Qe7 to transpose to Spassky-Petrossian;  12.a3 a6 ; 12.Qf3 Bd4
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #16 - 10/13/05 at 02:52:12
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Well, it got mentioned in NIC once, and at the time I found one decent level game with it in their database, a quick white win...
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #15 - 10/11/05 at 08:19:36
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@elspringer,

I've never seen that except in Blitz or one-minute!

@Castlerock,

To be honest, I was only copying Psakhis' analysis and didn't study it very carefully last night.  I'll try to give some of my own comments later today.  I'm likely to play the Steinitz today in my club championship game (round 2 of 4), so the study will help me directly!
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #14 - 10/11/05 at 08:10:55
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And what about this : 1. e4 e6.  2. Nc3 d5. 3. Nf3 Nf6. 4. e5 Nfd7. 5. d4 c5. 6. Bg5!? (Jackal attack, baptised by Adrian Skelton)
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #13 - 10/11/05 at 07:58:45
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@Smyslov_Fan

I had a look at the position after 13...Rae8 and it is quite interesting. My encounter with Classical French is only with Burn through Ruebenstien move order. I respect Psakhis but I am not sure I understood your post.

1) Struggle is on e5 square and a3-a6 will have to be played at some point to avoid tactics involving b4-b5 squares. So why not immediately? After all both sides have absolute static balance.

2) Second is 14.Nc6. The point is white should over protect e5 square and black should strive to achieve e5. Logical white plan would be a3,Bg3,Kh1,f4 and/or Nc3-d1-f2-g4. Hence 14.Nc6 is not necessarily important,imho. Similarly, black has a6, Bd4, Nxe4, Bxe4, Bf6 and Nd7 in a bid to prepare for e5. I don't see why only 14.Nxc6

I don't have Psakhis' book and I would appreciate if you can post his analysis.

BTW, 13.Rae1 deserves an exclam!
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #12 - 10/11/05 at 01:05:31
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Quote:
1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. d4 c5 6. dxc5 Nc6 7. Bf4 Bxc5 8.
Bd3 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. O-O O-O 11. Ne5 Qe7 12. Qe2 Bd7 13. Rae1 Rae8


Psakhis, in French Defence:  Steinitz, Classical and Other Systems (2005) points out many deviations from your line but gives the following continuation:

14.Nc6 (14.a3 doesn't pose Black any problems either according to Psakhis) 14...Bc6 15.Bg3 (or 15.Be5 Nd7! with excellent play for Black as in Shilov-Ulibin, 2001) 15...a6 16.a3 Qf7 17.b4 Bd4 18.Be5! and follows Spassky-Petrosian, 19th World Championship game, 1966 to equality.

This is a very old source, but I've seen it mentioned before when discussing this line.  I guess it's still the paradigm for White's play here.

  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #11 - 10/10/05 at 16:24:04
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@ Smyslov Fan: I am happy to see that you have been enlightened. I play Nc3 first because if they play c5 on the second move i play f4 bc i prefer playing that f4 sicilian rather than playing an open one.. ofcourse this is bc i dont know open sicilian theory. AND i have the roman DVD! LOL.

Also. when you mentioned the d4 move. they seem to have forgotten to mention. e4 e6 Nf3 d5 Nc3 d4 Ne2 c5 c3 d3 Nf4 c4 Qa4+ ! picking up both of the pawns... you might be surprised how many people fall for that one. I say this not to say that the line is awesome, but to show that it has its poison.

@ Gueler: when you say: "6. ...Nc6 7.Bf4 Bxc5 8. Bd3 Qb6 9. 0-0.

Psakhis has some analysis, let me see what else I can find. Two plans I have seen, are to go for the pawn on b2 " There is a problem going for the b2 pawn. Qxb2 Nb5! (threatning Nc7+ forking) after you move, i will go Bd2 followed by Bc3 and i trapped your queen.. once again, this line has alot of traps for the unaware. I believe Qb6 is a mistake. f6 is the move.

For those of you taking about the Fort Knox variation. dxe4 Nxe4 followed By Bd7 and Bc6- Yes, white cannot play the good lines with a early c4 and d5, but take a look at two of my games on this :

[Event "ICC 5 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2005.09.27"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Kamikaze-Squad"]
[Black "Goldmund"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ICCResult "Black checkmated"]
[WhiteElo "2401"]
[BlackElo "2523"]
[Opening "French: Fort Knox variation"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "20:09:25"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bd7 5. d4 Bc6 6. Bd3 Nd7 7. Qe2 Ngf6
8. O-O Bxe4 9. Bxe4 Nxe4 10. Qxe4 c6 11. c3 Be7 12. Re1 O-O 13. h4 Nf6 14.
Qe2 Qa5 15. Bf4 Rfd8 16. Ne5 Re8 17. Rad1 Qxa2 18. Rd3 Nd5 19. Bh6 Bf6 20.
Rg3 Ne7 21. Ng4 Ng6 22. Nxf6+ gxf6 23. h5 e5 24. Qf3 Re6 25. hxg6 hxg6 26.
dxe5 Rae8 27. Qf5 Kh7 28. Qh3 Kg8 29. Qh5 fxe5 30. Qh4 Qxb2 31. Bg5 f5 32.
Bf6 Kf7 33. Qh7+ Kxf6 34. Rxg6# {Black checkmated} 1-0

Event "ICC 5 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2005.09.26"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Kamikaze-Squad"]
[Black "Goldmund"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
[WhiteElo "2386"]
[BlackElo "2479"]
[Opening "French: Fort Knox variation"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "21:12:48"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bd7 5. d4 Bc6 6. Bd3 Nd7 7. Qe2 Ngf6
8. O-O Nxe4 9. Bxe4 Bxe4 10. Qxe4 c6 11. Re1 Be7 12. c3 O-O 13. Bf4 Nf6 14.
Qe2 Qb6 15. Rad1 Rfd8 16. Ne5 Re8 17. Rd3 Rad8 18. Rg3 g6 19. Bh6 c5 20.
dxc5 Bxc5 21. Qf3 Be7 22. Bg5 Qxb2 23. Bxf6 Qd2 24. Rf1 Bxf6 25. Qxf6 Rf8
26. h4 Rd5 27. h5 Qe2 28. hxg6 hxg6 29. Nxg6 {Black resigns} 1-0

That Goldmund is GM Goldmund. So if you guys have any comments on those games it would be nice to see since I havent analyzed those so any theoretical recommendation is appreciated.

And Last, I am interested in discussing the positions where most of the theory ends.. Thing is that there is very little analysis on this line and not too many games for example:
1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. d4 c5 6. dxc5 Nc6 7. Bf4 Bxc5 8.
Bd3 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. O-O O-O 11. Ne5 Qe7 12. Qe2 Bd7 13. Rae1 Rae8
That is one of the positions. if you guys have any independent analysis, or any of your french books, i would like to see whats up.. well guys thanks alot!!
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #10 - 10/10/05 at 09:25:16
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Hi all!

Thanks for enlightening me on the merits of White's set-up!  I really had thought it was a one-off type of move order.  @Taljechin, I stated that Black can opt for a fully acceptable Sicilian by playing 2...c5.  I know it's packed with theory and at lower levels it's expecting too much for Black to be well-versed in both the French and Sicilian.

But...

3...d4 has recently been played successfully.  I think it was in the European Cup (or perhaps the Maurice Ashley tournament in Minnnesota), but I could be wrong.  Black got a crushing game in very short order.  I'll see if I can dig it up.

Again, I am clearly learning here!  Whereas I thought it was a patzer's way to avoid a line that White shouldn't really worry about in the first place, this move order has a stronger pedigree than I would have imagined!  Thanks for showing me the errors of my ways!
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #9 - 10/10/05 at 08:18:47
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Quote:
where are the white players of this line? and what do the french players think about this line and what do your books say?!... im interested.. I have the baker book and ive played this line with some success.


Several strong players have employed the Two Knights  as an occasional anti-French weapon - off hand I can name GMs Benjamin, Chandler and Rogers. I also noticed some years ago that it featured/s in the "first repertoire" of many up-and-coming eastern european juniors, e.g. Macieja, the Kosteniuks, the Kosintsevas, presumably at the instigation of their coaches. I suppose that its main virtues from the white point of view are: rapid development; a semi-open position; a few nice traps; most games will reach the key position 1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.d4 c5 6.dxc5 Nc6 7.Bf4 Bxc5 8.Bd3 f6, so White has a good chance of getting a familiar position (this is one of Baker's points in his book); it serves as an elementary introduction to the concept of blockade (e5);  and it avoids the Winawer (which, whatever its theoretical status these days, can be very difficult for less experienced players to get their heads round).

So the Two Knights against the French is not daft. On the other hand, it IS theoretically less threatening to the French than the main lines -  but only as long as Black has studied Watson or Psakhis. And it's oh so easy for Black to go wrong e.g. with the routine 8...Qb6.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #8 - 10/10/05 at 05:38:58
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I have had this variation in my white repertouar in order to save some time preparing for the french...

As TalJechin says white can expect to be able to play the dxc5!? variation against all 3..Nf6 and 3..Bb4 players.

Well, that is almost true: e4 e6 Nf3 (The move order I use, which allows me a "snyder" sicilian if black goes 2..c5 with 3.b3) d5 Nc3 Bb4!? is also possible. However as most books (I think) recommend 3..Nf6, I have rarely met this variation. And even, if black plays Bb4!? it is not a normal winawer, where white has interesting ideas  Cheesy that black may not be familiar with...

Too bad it doesnt avoid the rubinstein though... Black even get an additional interesting possibility with: dxe4 Nxe4 c5!?

I think it is a good variation for white to deviate from normal theory, but please dont ask me to show a white advantage Sad I dont think you will find a single variation that does that in Watsons book....
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #7 - 10/10/05 at 04:45:56
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The very baroque move order suggested by Charles G allows Black to play 2...c5 with a fully acceptable game.

He could also play 3...de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 with fine play. or even 3....d4! The cost of avoiding the Winawer is just too high.


If I was black in this line I wouldn't lose any sleep over dxc5 either. But transpositionwise, I don't agree with S_F; 2.Nc3 c5 3.Nf3 is either a normal sicilian or one of the anti sveshnikov lines where white scores quite OK. And 3...de4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ gxf6 6.d4 can be reached through the Rubinstein as well.

3...d4 is not bad, but hardly a '!', for one thing in practical play white will be delighted to have gotten the opponent off his 'french track', e.g the following rapid game:

Klinova,M ( 2391 ) - Korchnoi,V ( 2619 ) [C00]
Pivdenny Bank Geller Mem Odessa UKR ( 9 ), 03.07.2005

1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 d4 4.Ne2 c5 5.Ng3 a6 6.Be2 Nc6 7.0-0 Nf6 8.d3 e5 9.h3 g6 10.Nh2 Bg7 11.Ng4 Ng8 12.f4 exf4 13.Bxf4 h5 14.Nh2 h4 15.Nh1 g5 16.Bd2 Ne5 17.Nf2 f6 18.Nfg4 Ng6 19.Nf2 N8e7 20.Bg4 Bxg4 21.Nfxg4 Qb6 22.a3 0-0-0 23.b4 c4 24.dxc4 Qe6 25.c5 Qxe4 26.Nxf6 Bxf6 27.Rxf6 Nd5 28.Rd6 Ngf4 29.Qg4+ Kc7 30.Bxf4 Nxf4 31.Nf3 Ne2+ 32.Kh2 Qxg4 33.hxg4 Rxd6 34.cxd6+ Kxd6 35.Re1 Nc3 36.Nxd4 Kd5 37.Nf3 Rc8 38.Re5+ Kd6 39.Rxg5 Ne4 40.Rg7 b5 41.Nxh4 Rxc2 42.Rg6+ Kd5 43.Rxa6 Ra2 44.Nf3 Kc4 45.g5 Re2 46.Re6 1-0


1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 d4 4.Ne2 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.cxd4 cxd4 7.Qa4 Bc5 8.b4 is one of white's points.

But black has also ideas:

Guseinov,K ( 2505 ) - Mamedyarov,S ( 2605 ) [C00]
WJun, Nakhchivan AZE ( 8 ), 2003

1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 d4 4.Ne2 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.cxd4 Nf6! 7.e5 Nd7 8.dxc5 Ndxe5 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.d4 Bxc5!

which might be the reason Klinova played 5.Ng3, making the old geezer think for himself. Wink

If white is willing to play this line, s/he could expect to get to dxc5 it in about 75% of the games after 1.e4 e6 - so why would white want to learn the Winawer too???
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #6 - 10/10/05 at 03:51:24
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I was responding to the exclamation mark attached to dc5 that appears in the title of the thread.  If White really thinks this is a great move, he should head for it with "all deliberate speed" (from Brown vs Topeka Board of Education). 

The Winawer (or however his name is spelled in various languages) seems like a small price to pay for getting a position that White wants in the Steinitz.  Personally, and after lots of review, I agree with Psakhis (who gives about two and half pages of analysis to the idea) that Black has no worries. 

If you have more after 6. ...Nc6 7.Bf4 Bxc5 8. Bd3 f6! (Psakhis' main move instead of 8...Qb6 9. 0-0) that shows White to have a real edge, I would like to see it.  It was this position that Psakhis analyses closely in his new volume (2005).

The very baroque move order suggested by Charles G allows Black to play 2...c5 with a fully acceptable game.

He could also play 3...de4 4.Ne4 Nf6 with fine play. or even 3....d4! The cost of avoiding the Winawer is just too high.
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #5 - 10/10/05 at 03:13:12
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True, the move order in question avoids winnaver. But opens other avenues such as fort knox, burn, Rebenstien, Guimard and in some cases McCutcheon. So from white perspective, white cannot hope to reach Steinitz all the time. It is the case with normal move order also. Just thought I would mention.

BTW, I keep it in my repertoire against BDG Wink The move order is 1.d4 d5 2.e4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nf3 c5  Tongue

Jokes apart, white has to keep a pawn on e5 and over protect it and use the space for king side attack. In that sense, both Bf4 and f4 are good plans.

PTF3 has analysis for this line. Anand's white games might provide lot of insight.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #4 - 10/10/05 at 02:56:27
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The position an also come about after 1. Nc3 (...d5 2. e4, e6 and so on). In fact the Two Knights variation is a not-too-bad way of avoiding the main lines... White has also other options after Nf6...
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #3 - 10/10/05 at 00:21:15
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@ Smyslov_Fan

You said to Charles_G "I don't understand why White would play the move order you suggest."

Consider that compared to your variantion, Charles can achieve his desired position avoiding a standard Winawer.

@Charles, I have seen your variation being played also with Nf3 and Nc3 in reversed order.

Coming back to your question, the critical position arises, I believe, after 6. ...Nc6 7.Bf4 Bxc5 8. Bd3 Qb6 9. 0-0.

Psakhis has some analysis, let me see what else I can find. Two plans I have seen, are to go for the pawn on b2 - which will cost some time - or to go for K-side castle - be aware of a potential Bh7+ sac, after that consider undermining the white center with f7-f6 and play with hanging pawns, trying to push e6 to e5
  
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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #2 - 10/09/05 at 22:37:54
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Charles,

I keep this variation in my repertoire.  I started using it when I used  to answer the Alekhine's with 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 4.Nf3 e6 5.d4

From experience, I can tell I have done well with this line.  In some of the main lines, White keeps a firm hold of the center but with pieces on e5 and d4 instead of pawns.  That's, to put it mildly, OK with me.

Looks can be deceiving too.  I have seen looks on people change 18 or more moves after.  Even GM and IM's have made suggestions or statements without playing these lines but they were not accurate.  Of course those who have have  played and prepared for it or who employ the opening themselves are useful for you to learn from.  They might be rare, but... 

If you do decide to play it, I will advise you to check also the latest games with those lines, the annotated ones being more important.  I like the ones from CBM more than informant because of the better coverage of correspondence games.  More important than that, analyze it yourself, and see if you come up with any ideas yourself and then compare with those games.
  

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Re: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
Reply #1 - 10/09/05 at 21:11:30
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I don't understand why White would play the move order you suggest.

A much simpler and probably better way to reach the same position is: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 (a normal Steinitz variation) Nfd7 (note that you missed the possibility of Black dropping his N by not saying which N.  In correspondence chess, the game would be over if you did that!) 5.Nf3?! (f4 is better) c5 6.dc5 is covered very well in numerous books on the French Steinitz.

To put the analysis of Psakhis, Harding, Watson and others in a nutshell, this way of playing the French Steinitz poses no serious threat to Black.  Black simply develops (6...Nc6) and is happy to play the standard French ideas of undermining White's already weakened center without fear of any nasty surprises.

It is becoming increasingly rare (according to Psakhis in a book published this year) and White has better moves anyway.  So why White would transpose into this line is beyond me.

A better try for White is, instead of 5.Nf3, 5.f4 when we reach main-line Steinitz position and there's quite a few rich ideas for both sides.
  
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C11: e4 e6 Nc3 d5 Nf3 Nf6 e5 Nd7 d4 c5 dc!
10/09/05 at 20:47:54
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where are the white players of this line? and what do the french players think about this line and what do your books say?!... im interested.. I have the baker book and ive played this line with some success.
« Last Edit: 08/02/11 at 20:24:20 by dom »  

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