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Normal Topic Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav (Read 4209 times)
parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #9 - 02/01/06 at 11:48:48
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Hy, i have this discution in the Subject "a critical test" in this forum. I have the faith in Golubev work and Bd7 seems ?! after 9.000 but "ameinatos" has not this feeling and try to propose improvements for Black. You can discuss it with us in this other place.
  
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rooksway18
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #8 - 10/16/05 at 05:02:30
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Thanks Scholar.  By the way, Starting Out: The Sicilian Dragon shows a recent game by Tiviakov that appears to iimprove on the Korneev-Tiviakov game mentioned in the thread you referenced.  But my question is can black still play 8...00 9.000 Bd7?

It's not that I don't believe in black's traditional ...d5 vs. 9.000. It's that I like playing 8.Qd2 00 9.000 Bd7 but am wondering if games like Psakhis-Williams, 03' and Sutovsky-Hodgson, 98', both won by white, have more or less refuted 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 00 9.000 Bd7 for black.  For example, 10.g4 Rc8 11.h4 Ne5 12.Be2.  Now

12...Qa5 13.Kb1! was reached in the game Sutovsky-Hodgson, and black seems to be without an adequate response, while if

12...b5, does black really have compensation after the untried 13.Ncxb5?  That still leaves

12...h5, but how good is that?

Perhaps I'm answering my own question.  By playing devil's advocate, I'm hoping somebody comes to the rescue of 8...00 9.000 Bd7.  Maybe the title of this topic should have been "Is 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 00 refuted?"
« Last Edit: 10/20/05 at 12:08:51 by rooksway18 »  
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #7 - 10/16/05 at 03:41:59
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Bd7, either before or after castling, does not seem to be doing very well; there are quite a few threads here discussing various attempts against it.  MNb has a nice game which he provided in one of them, http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=Dragons;action=display;num=112713...

The 9...d5 lines with 12...Bxd4 offer Black good chances, are relatively easy to learn, and are theoretically sound.  For example:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.f3 Bg7 7.Be3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4

This line is discussed in any number of threads, and seems satisfactory for Black.
  
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #6 - 10/16/05 at 02:19:33
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Rooksway, Scratch the moves I noted above since you want to play ...Bd7 after ...0-0.  I thought you were talking about the 8...Bd7 lines which is what I was looking at yesterday and today.

In the various references I have (i.e. Rogozenko's CD), the 9...Bd7 line does not fare well...  Not very helpful, eh?

From what I have been reading, the 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 lines look unpleasant for black.  Martin suggests delaying castling via 8...Bd7 avoids these lines, but Rogozenko's CD and Golubev's article in Experts vs. the Sicilian suggest that black is even worse after 8...Bd7 than after 8...0-0 9.0-0-0.  Not very encouraging for a player like me just starting out with the dragon...

I guess I'll be learning a lot on the 9.0-0-0 line since that is what my weekly sparring partner plays...
  

The white square goes on the lower left, right?
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rooksway18
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #5 - 10/15/05 at 20:01:55
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I've always been fond of ...Bd7, ...Rc8, ....Ne5 for whatever reason, and it seems like there is less to memorize than with the popular...d5 lines.  That's the real reason I want to make ...Bd7 work.
-rooksway18
  
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #4 - 10/15/05 at 15:01:16
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Your absolutely right, Lost Highway.  I went back and modified the original post, and again here are the moves from the start of Psakhis-S.Williams 2003: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 00 9.000 Bd7 10.g4 Rc8 11.h4 Ne5 12.Kb1 b5 13.h5 Nf3 14.Nf3 Bg4 15.Bg2.  Can anyone suggest improvements for black after white's 15th move?  I consider this position critical to the evaluation of certain lines as is implied in my original post to start this thread.

Thanks Fuzzylizard, just got "Starting Out: The Sicilian Dragon" myself, and I like it too.  IM Martin has some helpful opening suggestions in various lines I've struggled with.

-rooksway18


rooksway18 -

I play 9...d5 against 9.O-O-O, so I can't help you with 9...Bd7.  I think black is ok with 9...d5, but there will probably be some screamers challenging me to prove it.

- Lost Highway
  
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #3 - 10/15/05 at 14:17:59
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Your absolutely right, Lost Highway.  I went back and modified the original post, and again here are the moves from the start of Psakhis-S.Williams 2003: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 00 9.000 Bd7 10.g4 Rc8 11.h4 Ne5 12.Kb1 b5 13.h5 Nf3 14.Nf3 Bg4 15.Bg2.  Can anyone suggest improvements for black after white's 15th move?  I consider this position critical to the evaluation of certain lines as is implied in my original post to start this thread.

Thanks Fuzzylizard, just got "Starting Out: The Sicilian Dragon" myself, and I like it too.  IM Martin has some helpful opening suggestions in various lines I've struggled with.

-rooksway18
  
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #2 - 10/15/05 at 12:38:39
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Hi,
In the Yugoslav Dragon after 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 00 10.g4 Rc8 11.h4 Ne5 12.Kb1 b5 13.h5 Nf3 14.Nf3 Bg4 15.Bg2

Stop right there.  What are the first 7 moves?

- Lost Highway
  
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Re: Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
Reply #1 - 10/15/05 at 01:13:57
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I'm just learning the dragon so I cannot give any personal suggestions on this, but I just happened to be skimming through Andrew Martin's "Starting Out: Sicilian Dragon" book and read the section on this line about an hour ago.  Martin includes a few games that go 9...Rc8 10.g4 Ne5 11.h4 h5.

FWIW While I haven't gone through Martin's book much yet I think it is a good one for starting out (go figure, given the title).
  

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rooksway18
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Black choices in 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.000 Yugoslav
10/14/05 at 21:02:40
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Hi,
In the Yugoslav Dragon after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 00 9.000 Bd7 10.g4 Rc8 11.h4 Ne5 12.Kb1 b5 13.h5 Nf3 14.Nf3 Bg4 15.Bg2, are there any suggested improvements on Psakhis-S.Williams, 1-0, 03', for black after move 15?  I want to make ...Bd7 work against 9.000, and I'm wondering if I should use ...Qa5 instead of ...b5.  Still, against some move orders ...Qa5 has problems as well, according to current theory and my own experience.  I play both, but booked up dragoneers have been preparing for me when they are white.  Is delaying castling for black and flicking in ...h5 the only decent option left for fans of ...Bd7?
« Last Edit: 10/15/05 at 14:26:44 by rooksway18 »  
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