Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How do you pronounce Winawer? (Read 33377 times)
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2223
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #37 - 01/04/14 at 05:14:07
Post Tools
Billy wrote on 01/04/14 at 02:39:27:
I sure hope that actual chess questions on this forum get clearer responses than were given in this totally inane (&unhelpful) thread.

Cool


Yes, they do.
Must say, digging up a forgotten thread from three years back to criticise is not productive. In the third post here, to boot.
Can you be productive, perhaps?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billy
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 4
Joined: 10/06/13
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #36 - 01/04/14 at 02:39:27
Post Tools
I sure hope that actual chess questions on this forum get clearer responses than were given in this totally inane (&unhelpful) thread.

Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bravehoptoad
Full Member
***
Offline


Chess nuts boasting in
an open foyer

Posts: 100
Location: Tok
Joined: 06/27/05
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #35 - 11/19/05 at 04:27:20
Post Tools
Quote:
Anyway, American speech habits do not properly determine the pronunciation of foreign names.


I'd take comprehension over propriety any day.  If I'm "properly" pronouncing blWAH or alYECKeen, and no one understands me, what's the point?  You're needlessly creating rhetorical barriers that distract from the actual content of what you're trying to say.

If I'm speaking English to an American audience, why shouldn't I let American speech habits determine pronounciation?  Similarly, if I'm speaking Chinese to a Chinese audience, I'm not going to prounounce American names in "proper" English.  Again, no one understands me.  Learning how to pronounce proper nouns in a foreign language is an important part of learning the languge.

Also, it's a lot harder to talk that way.  It's tough to switch from one accent to another, let alone for just a single word.

What does "proper" mean in this case, anyway?  Who's doing the judgement?  What absolute rule is out there deciding the "proper" way to pronounce a word? 

See, my standard is easy.  You pronounce the word however will get your message across to your audience.  Voila, no ugly & ill-defined "proper" usage required. 

Quote:
There are, of course, many English proper names like "Moscow", "Paris," "Geneva," "Rome," and "Hong Kong," which can properly be used to refer to foreign places.  But only rarely, e.g. "Charlemagne" or "Napoleon," is this the case with names of persons.  


I can think of bunches.  How about Alekhine?  Winawer?  Nimzowich?  Ruy Lopez?  Pirc?  Robatch?  Levenfish?  Tchigorin?  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #34 - 11/18/05 at 22:34:29
Post Tools
Guided,

I resemble that remark.

Btw, I hope I didn't post too many trite, obnoxious posts along the way.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
guidedbyvoices
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 91
Location: Ireland
Joined: 12/17/04
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #33 - 11/18/05 at 21:49:21
Post Tools
Quote:
How do you pronounce "ignorant?"

- Lost highway


how do you pronounce "iamtryingtogettoa1000postsasfastaspossible" and i spout a lot of trite bs, none of it very informative!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lost highway
Senior Member
****
Offline


I may be crazy.

Posts: 471
Joined: 06/17/05
Gender: Male
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #32 - 11/18/05 at 19:26:26
Post Tools
Quote:
...you find stubornly ignorant Americans...

And no, the ignorance of most chess players...

How do you pronounce "ignorant?"

- Lost highway
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #31 - 11/18/05 at 11:10:21
Post Tools
Quote:
Simon Winawer was a Polish Jew, and I am rather sure that just as "Walkowski" is properly pronounced Vall-KOV-ski and "Kalecki" Ka-LETS-ki, "Simon Winawer" is pronounced SEE-mon vin-AH-ver. 

I believe that the sound of the English double-u is very uncommon, possibly nonexistent, in Polish.


You could jolly well be right abt Vin-AH-ver.(after counterchecking with the website below) The confusion abt some polish pronounciations however is that the 'L' can be pronounced as the english 'L' eg Polska -'Polscah' or sometimes as a 'w' eg Wotyla -Voy-tee-wah.

check out the following website on polish pronounciation, for those interested. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~atpc/learn/tools/pl-alphabet.html
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #30 - 11/18/05 at 10:21:38
Post Tools
Quote:
Not so sure about that.  Take American cities.  Most people anglizise "Los Angeles" when they pronounce it.  (Yes, not Los Angelos, sorry Smyslov Fan).  What about our next largest city?  Most people don't even KNOW how to pronounce "Chicago", since it's Commanche and means "Worm Eaters."  Most people don't pronounce "Saint Louis" or "Baton Rouge" in a French accent.

Are you just talking about people's names?  Again, we don't say "Sylvester Stalon-ee", the way any good Italian would.  I've never met an English speaker who actually pronounces Alekine's name "ahl-YEKH-een".  No one would understand you if you did. 

And does anyone outside Spain say "Ruy Lopeth" in proper Castillian Spanish? 

If Winawer were still alive and giving press conferences, I'd see trying to pronounce his name correctly.  But Simon Winawer's been dead for more than 100 years.  I think it's safe for English speakers to anglicize his name.

P.S.  Welsh makes even more use of semi-vowell "w"s than English.  Good scrabble word:  cwm. 


Names particularly American are hardly a suitable counterexample, since American speech habits properly determine these pronunciations.  Even there, of course, you find stubornly ignorant Americans who refuse to say New AW(r)-lins or Bil-UX-i even after they learn that these are the proper pronuncians of "New Orleans" and "Biloxi."  I had a very well educated Irish friend who persistently and incorrectly insisted on SHTOI-ben-vill, even though he well knew that Steubenville, Ohio's name is pronounced STOO-ben-vill.   

Anyway, American speech habits do not properly determine the pronunciation of foreign names. Thus when referring to Rouen and Blois, some attempt should be made to say something like roo-AW(n) and (bl)WAH.  The same applies to foreign personal names, whether the persons referred to are living or dead.  If someone is name Guillaume Vuillard or Gzhegozh Jakubovski, it may not be easy to say his name, but it is only proper to make a pass at it.  And no, the ignorance of most chess players does not change that "Alekhine" is properly pronounced Al-YECK-een.

There are, of course, many English proper names like "Moscow", "Paris," "Geneva," "Rome," and "Hong Kong," which can properly be used to refer to foreign places.  But only rarely, e.g. "Charlemagne" or "Napoleon," is this the case with names of persons. 

  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #29 - 11/18/05 at 09:37:39
Post Tools
Simon Winawer was a Polish Jew, and I am rather sure that just as "Walkowski" is properly pronounced Vall-KOV-ski and "Kalecki" Ka-LETS-ki, "Simon Winawer" is pronounced SEE-mon vin-AH-ver. 

I believe that the sound of the English double-u is very uncommon, possibly nonexistent, in Polish.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bravehoptoad
Full Member
***
Offline


Chess nuts boasting in
an open foyer

Posts: 100
Location: Tok
Joined: 06/27/05
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #28 - 11/16/05 at 21:46:15
Post Tools
Quote:
Doesn't this mainly prove, that Americans don't bother to look further than the borders of their nation?


I'm just talking about the practicalities of phonetics.  My point is it's really hard to switch accents in the middle of a sentence.

My other languages are Japanese and Chinese.  When I'm speaking Chinese, I pronounce "Los Angeles" as "Lo San Ji", and when I'm speaking Japanese, I pronounce "New York" as "Niu Yo Ru Ku."  It's easier to say in the rhythms of the language, and the people I'm talking to understand me.  And if I ever learn Polish, I'm sure I'll pronounce Winawer as Polish as I can when I'm speaking Polish.

So I don't think Anglicizing words while speaking English has much to do with being American. 

Here's an interesting example of anglicization:  a Greek kind of sandwich called a "gyros".  In Greek, this would be pronounced like "YEE-ros".  Because it looks plural in English, Americans tend to drop the "s", and some try to pronounce it the Greek way, and what they say sounds like "HE-ro", like Batman or Superman.  Others just say "JI-ro", as in gyroscope.  The last pronounciation is the most anglicized of them, I think, but which will win?  Dunh dunh da...the suspense is killing me. 

Okay, enough babble like this in the French Forum.  Haven't even spoken a word of French, let alone talked about 1...e6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10569
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #27 - 11/15/05 at 12:08:28
Post Tools
"I am sorry for inadvertently sounding arrogant in my previous statement."

You didn't and after all your posts I know very well you aren't - like all those PC volunteers!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #26 - 11/15/05 at 10:42:41
Post Tools
Just for clarification:

When I stated that I was relatively rare as a multi-lingual American, I didn't mean to suggest that I am unique.  I have taught thousands of Americans and a few hundred non-Americans.  The non-Americans value learning a language more than most (most) Americans do.  The main exception in my area is the Hispanic community which prides itself on maintaining their various heritages and language.

I am sorry for inadvertently sounding arrogant in my previous statement. I can understand why you might have thought I was saying that I was unique.  A I said, I am rare in that as an American, I actually read and speak more than one (or two) languages. 

I have friends who have been in the Peace Corps, and I admire them greatly, but even there, many didn't learn a second language before joining.  They certainly do appreciate other cultures though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10569
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #25 - 11/15/05 at 08:58:53
Post Tools
"I know I'm relatively rare"
I happened to meet several Peace Corpse Volunteers, so I can tell you from experience that you are not that rare.
Moreover after posting I realized, that chances are not high that I will meet Bravehop in reality, so there is not really a problem with prononciation.
But I can assure you, that English speaking people do have problems, when they visit The Netherlands and anglicize Dutch names. The Dutch town Gouda is not pronounced as Gooda; the latter is hardly recognizable.
Time to shut up for me.  Lips Sealed
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #24 - 11/14/05 at 23:52:26
Post Tools
Btw, two minor points:

You yourself used the term "Germany" rather than Deutschland.  (The reason for it is clear, but goes against your rather spurious argument.)

Also, the pronounciation of Miami is acceptable either as My-AH me (the most common form) or as Mee-ah-Mee (the Spanish pronounciation).  How you pronounce that particular American city usually denotes your own heritage and is properly considered as part of your "accent".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: How do you pronounce Winawer?
Reply #23 - 11/14/05 at 23:45:25
Post Tools
MNb,

We Americans are guilty of many, many things.  Many generations of my countrymen have fully earned the reputation of the Ugly American.  I think you will find, however, that the stereotype just doesn't hold up for many of the chessplayers who come to this site and write. 

For myself, I have travelled outside the country, learned other languages and studied the histories of many cultures.  I know I'm relatively rare, but Bravehop seems fairly similarly interested in cultures other than our own.  I don't think Bravehop's argument is an example of American xenophobia.

In fact, Bravehop makes a perfectly legitimate practical argument.  Remember, almost all the tells in this forum are in English.  Many are from native English speaking countries such as, well, England.  But the international language, like it or not, is indeed English.  The main point behind language is communication.  When we forget that, then all the pronounciation guides in the world won't help us.

I speak some Spanish (Mexican), and I pronounce Los Angeles like a gringo.  I pronounce Mexico in either English or Spanish, depending on my audience and my goals.  Do you, in conversation, call the capital of Russia "Moscow" or Moscva?  Do the French call the capital of the United Kingdom London, or Londres? 

When in English, do as the English do!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo