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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C01: Bayonet attack in the Exchange (Read 6351 times)
Klick
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #13 - 05/29/06 at 17:41:11
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I intended to post my analysis but my computer, after running several days, crashed. I hadn`t saved it so it unfortunately all went down the drain.


  
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castlerock
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #12 - 03/07/06 at 18:02:12
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Klick wrote on 03/07/06 at 09:35:03:
Hmm, isn`t that the problem with the early b4? Let`s say 9.h3 Bh5 10.b4 0-0-0!? 11.b5 and d8 is now occupied by the rook. In the lines with early b4 black has no time for this.


Good point. But why 9...Bh5? 9...Bf5 looks equalising to me. Similarly 10...f6 covering e5 might be a good move instead of 0-0-0. If white persists with 11.b5 11...Na5 could be an option, Black can continue with 0-0,Nb7,c5 etc and it may not be possible for white to counter this plan. White's queenside light squares are quite inviting. There is sufficient asymetry even without 0-0-0 to ensure lively play. Your question is quite pertinent.

I would be interested in seeing your analysis. Please post it if you can.
  
CastleRock
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Klick
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #11 - 03/07/06 at 09:35:03
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Hmm, isn`t that the problem with the early b4? Let`s say 9.h3 Bh5 10.b4 0-0-0!? 11.b5 and d8 is now occupied by the rook. In the lines with early b4 black has no time for this.
  
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castlerock
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #10 - 03/07/06 at 08:53:24
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Klick wrote on 03/07/06 at 08:11:30:
Maybe Black can castle queenside, but after b5 Nb8 the knight is not very active and white can pursue an attack with pawn-pushes (a4) or by piece play (Nbd2 then Qa4)


Rde8 at some point is needed. Idea is to bring the knight to d8 before white’s b pawn reaches b5. b6 push requires time. White has to prepare it with a4 and a5. Black can use the reserve tempi to play on the king side. When white plays b6 black can answer with a6. Resultant pawn capture on c7 more often than not helps black. If black does not recapture on c7, in many positions continuing the attack will require investment in material.
  
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Klick
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #9 - 03/07/06 at 08:11:30
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I finally got around to having a closer look  Shocked . I use another computer for analysis so I don`t have them here, but here is at least my thoughts:

I don`t believe in any opening-advantage in the lines with an early Bg5 by white. In the Shirov-Gurevich game I think black equalizes easily out of the opening. Maybe Shirov played it to get Gurevich ´out of book´?

The interesting games are the ones where white tries to kickstart queenside play with an early b4. Now there are some questions to consider.

* Can Black castle queenside?
* Should white play h3 or not?
* Should Black respond to b4 with a6?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe Black can castle queenside, but after b5 Nb8 the knight is not very active and white can pursue an attack with pawn-pushes (a4) or by piece play (Nbd2 then Qa4)

So my first reaction to an early b4 was to castle short or prepare short-castling. Now if white wants to go with an early b4 I think he should first include h3, because then immediate short-castling is not an option for black due to Ne5. So possibly blacks best line starts with bg6!?

According to my analysis black did best to include a6 against non-h3 b4 and exclude it against h3-b4, but I`m not yet sure why.

I`ll post some lines when I get around to copying them.

Smiley
  
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Klick
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #8 - 11/15/05 at 07:50:30
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I am interested in this topic but need to concentrate on one thing at a time and currently my attention goes to the KIA. I`ll try posting something useful when I get around to it, in the meantime I`ll just make a comment regarding move-order.

I did never respond to 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.ed ed 4.Nf3 with 4...Bd6, because of 5.c4  I usually have played either 4...Bg4 or 4...Nc6.  Now I like to play the Bayonet attack in the Exchange, so lately 4...Nc6 has been my prefered choice.  Actually, I haven`t met 5.Bb5 (can be rather drawish Sad )  that often, but 5.Bd3 or 5.c3 which can transpose.

An interesting idea I discovered (was it a Volkov-game?) was 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.ed ed 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bd3 and now 5...Nb4!?, either taking white`s bishop or following up with Bf5, hitting c2.

The question remains what is best if you want to play the Bayonet: 4...Bd6 allowing 5.c4 or 4...Nc6 allowing 5...Bb5 (easy but drawish).
  
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dom
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #7 - 11/06/05 at 12:12:27
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OK thank you for your comments and for the game.
  
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castlerock
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #6 - 11/06/05 at 09:18:13
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@dom,

At last I managed to look at the game you provided. Last three games didn't inspire me. Pawn on f6, no pawn on e5 and short castle were the problems, I guess.

Following are my impressions on Shirov - Gurevich.

- Good thematic continuation and there really was no problem for black till Gurevich decided to double the rooks along the c file. Simply exchanging the g4 knight and one pair of rooks would have secured a draw. He perhaps over extended himself.

Watson's and Tarrasch's wins are also okay.

I am not sure whether not comimitting the c1 bishop calls for short castle. I tend to think it is not necessary. I don't have high profile games to lean on but I managed to find 2 low profile wins for black.

Da Boso Solano,C - Ingolfsdottir,H (2002) [C01]
Bled ol (Women) Bled (13), 08.11.2002

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Bd6 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.0-0 Nc6 7.Re1+ Nge7 8.c3 Qd7 9.b4 0-0-0 10.a4 Rde8 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bh4 Ng6 13.Bg3 Rxe1+ 14.Qxe1 Bxf3 15.gxf3 Nf4 16.Bf1 h5 17.h4 g5 18.Qd2 Rg8 19.Kh2 Qf5 0-1

Before I managed to post one more win and two draws my chessbase showed an error msg. sorry.

As I see the problem with black's attack is the time lost with Bg4-h5-g6. I was wondering whether playing Bh5-g4 instead of...g5 will help in opening the h file. I'll be studying this aspect and I'll post if I find something useful.

If you indeed, long castle do make sure to include Rde8 ASAP. Half the tradegy in this line happens because of lack of d8 square for the c6 knight.

As it is I don't see any theoritical problem for one side or other. This still remains one of the interesting variations of exchange french and will continue to remain so.

Just my 2c.
  
CastleRock
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #5 - 10/28/05 at 16:19:09
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Just a glance at these games makes me think that Watson's idea (if it was Watson who first came up with it) of 6 or 7...Bg4 may just be misguided.  Like castlerock, I'm going to defer any strong opinions until I get a chance to study it. 

Thanks for the games, and food for thought!
  
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castlerock
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #4 - 10/25/05 at 13:10:41
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dom,

Thanks for the games. Couldn't get time to study it. I should be posting soon. This could be a lively discussion
  
CastleRock
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dom
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #3 - 10/25/05 at 08:25:44
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To Smyslov_Fan: yes, Mikhail Gurevich (if I am interested with the game, it's because M.Gurevich is a French specialist).

To castlerock: yes, I am concerned with the line, because I chose to play the system with Nc6 (it will be long to explain why, but shortly: asymetric system for a sharp game). Another reason is because Shirov as given in June 2005 some chess lectures in Naujac (replacing one match vs Korchnoi) and he said he doesn't know French opening as well as Korchnoi. When I saw his game on Chessbase online, I wonder why such well prepared player, plays the Exchange and one rare variation (Bg5). Then I collected some games and saw MI Meijers played it with some original ideas.

Some games:
[Event "Eurotel Trophy"]
[Site "Prague"]
[Date "2002.04.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Shirov,Alexei"]
[Black "Gurevich,Mikhail"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C01"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd3 Ne7 6.0-0 Bg4 7.h3 Bh5 8.Bg5 Nbc6
9.c3 f6 10.Bh4 Qd7 11.Nbd2 0-0-0 12.b4 g5 13.Bg3 Bxg3 14.fxg3 Qd6 15.Qe1 Rde8 16.Qf2 Bg6
17.Bxg6 hxg6 18.g4 Nd8 19.Ne1 f5 20.gxf5 gxf5 21.Nd3 f4 22.Ne5 Nf5 23.Ndf3 Qh6 24.Rfe1 Ne3
25.Nh2 Qh7 26.Re2 Nf7 27.Neg4 Re6 28.Nxe3 Rhe8 29.Rae1 Qd3 30.Nhg4 Qxc3 31.Nxd5 Qxe1+ 32.Qxe1 Rxe2
33.Qc3 c6 34.Ndf6 Re1+ 35.Kh2 R8e2 36.d5 Nd6 37.dxc6 Nf5 38.Qd3  1-0

[Event "Vienna"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1922.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Kmoch,Hans"]
[Black "Tarrasch,Siegbert"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C01"]
1.d4 e6 2.e4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Bd6 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.0-0 Ne7 7.Bg5 Nbc6 8.c3 Qd7
9.Nbd2 f6 10.Be3 h5 11.Re1 h4 12.h3 Be6 13.Qe2 Nd8 14.c4 c6 15.c5 Bc7 16.Nf1 Bf7
17.Qd2 Ne6 18.N3h2 Bh5 19.f3 Kf7 20.Re2 Bg6 21.Rae1 Bxd3 22.Qxd3 Ng6 23.Qd2 Rae8 24.b4 Nef4
25.Bxf4 Nxf4 26.Rxe8 Rxe8 27.Rxe8 Qxe8 28.Kf2 Kf8 29.Ng4 Qg6 30.a3 Qb1 31.Nge3 Nd3+ 32.Ke2 Nf4+
33.Kf2 Qb3 34.Nc2 Nd3+ 35.Ke2 Nb2 36.Kf2 Bf4 37.Qe2 Nc4 38.g3 hxg3+ 39.Nxg3 g6 40.h4 Nd2
41.Ne1 Qb2 42.Nf1 Qxd4+ 43.Kg2 Nxf1 44.Kxf1 Qe3 45.Ng2 Qxe2+ 46.Kxe2 Bc1 47.Ne1 Bf4 48.a4 Ke7
49.Ng2 Be5 50.Kd3 f5 51.f4 Bf6 52.b5 Kd7 53.Ke3 Kc7 54.Kd3 b6 55.cxb6+ Kxb6 56.bxc6 Kxc6
57.Kd2 Kc5 58.Kd3 a5 59.h5 gxh5 60.Ne3 h4 61.Nxf5 h3 62.Ng3 h2 63.Ke3 Bh4 64.Nh1 Kc4
0-1


[Event "US op"]
[Site "St Paul"]
[Date "1982.08.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Marcal,Pedro"]
[Black "Watson,John L"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C01"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Bd6 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.0-0 Nge7 8.Bg5 Qd7
9.Nbd2 f6 10.Be3 0-0-0 11.c4 Nb4 12.Be2 dxc4 13.Nxc4 Nbd5 14.Qb3 Be6 15.Rfc1 Kb8 16.Nfd2 Nf4
17.Bf3 Bd5 18.Ne4 Ne2+ 19.Bxe2 Bxe4 20.Nxd6 Qxd6 21.Rc5 c6 22.Qa4 Nd5 23.Rac1 f5 24.g3 f4
25.Bd2 fxg3 26.hxg3 Rhf8 27.Bf1 Qf6 28.Be1 Qf3 0-1


[Event "Geneve CC 100th Ann op"]
[Site "Geneve"]
[Date "2001.04.19"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Meijers,Viesturs"]
[Black "Masserey,Yvan"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C01"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3 Bd6 6.Bd3 Nge7 7.0-0 Bg4 8.Re1 Qd7
9.b4 0-0 10.b5 Na5 11.Nbd2 Bf5 12.Bf1 Ng6 13.Qa4 b6 14.Ba3 a6 15.Ne5 Bxe5 16.dxe5 Rfe8
17.Bb2 axb5 18.Bxb5 c6 19.Bf1 Nc4 20.Qxa8 Rxa8 21.Bxc4 dxc4 22.Nxc4 Qd3 23.Ne3 Be6 24.c4 Qd2
25.Rab1 Rxa2 26.Nf1 Qa5 27.Bd4 c5 28.Be3 Bxc4 29.Red1 h5 30.Ng3 Nxe5 31.Nxh5 Be2 0-1


[Event "Wiesbaden op 19th"]
[Site "Wiesbaden"]
[Date "2000.08.26"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Meijers,Viesturs"]
[Black "Zolotarew,Pawel"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C01"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bg4 7.c3 Nge7 8.Re1 Qd7
9.b4 0-0 10.b5 Na5 11.Nbd2 c6 12.a4 Rfe8 13.Qc2 h6 14.h3 Bh5 15.Ne5 Bxe5 16.dxe5 Ng6
17.Bf5 Qd8 18.g4 Nxe5 19.gxh5 Qg5+ 20.Kf1 Qxh5 21.Ba3 g6 22.Rxe5 Rxe5 23.Bg4 Qg5 24.Nf3 Qf6
25.Nxe5 Qxe5 26.Re1 Qh2 27.Re7 h5 28.Be6 Kh8 29.Rxf7 Rg8 30.Be7 Nc4 31.Bf6+ Rg7 32.Bxg7+ 
1-0


[Event "Wiesbaden op 19th"]
[Site "Wiesbaden"]
[Date "2000.08.26"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Meijers,Viesturs"]
[Black "Meyer,Stefan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C01"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3 Bd6 6.Bd3 Nge7 7.0-0 Bg4 8.Re1 Qd7
9.b4 f6 10.Nbd2 0-0 11.b5 Na5 12.h3 Bf5 13.Bf1 Bg6 14.Nh4 Rfe8 15.Qa4 b6 16.Nxg6 Nxg6
17.Ba3 Bxa3 18.Qxa3 Rxe1 19.Rxe1 Re8 20.Rxe8+ Qxe8 21.c4 Qe1 22.Nf3 Qe4 23.c5 Nf4 24.Kh2 Kf7
25.Qc3 Qe7 26.g3 Ng6 27.h4 Nf8 28.Bg2 Qd7 29.Nd2 Ne6 30.c6 Qd6 31.Kg1 Kf8 32.Kf1 g6
33.Ke2 Ke7 34.a4 Nd8 35.Qf3 Ke6 36.Nb1 Nc4 37.Nc3 Nb2 38.Qxd5+ Qxd5 39.Bxd5+ Ke7 40.Kd2 Kd6
41.Bb3  1-0
  
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castlerock
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Erro Ergo Sum

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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #2 - 10/25/05 at 03:49:14
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@dom

Actually, I love playing this way as black. But I delay the queenside castling a bit. 10…f6 proves useful on many counts. Immediate Ne5 is not possible for white, g6 square is required for e7 knight both as a square vacation for c6 knight against b5 and to support f4/g4 for the attack and bring the bishop to f2 and later on e6.

White needs to decide about its queenside pieces and queen for the attack to be successful. Simply moving the pawns and opening the a file, imho, is not sufficient.

From your post, it looks like you have some specific concerns on this line. It would be useful to me personally, if you can share those games.
  
CastleRock
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Re: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
Reply #1 - 10/25/05 at 01:55:55
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Dom,

Is "tabla position" the same as "tabiya" in Russian/Turkish:  a basic position of the opening?

The lines you give suggest that while White has some original ideas in this version of the exchange, Black is still doing fine from a theoretical perspective. 

I'm not used to Black playing Nc6 before c5 in this line, but it is probably ok.  I usually play c6 and an eventual Nbd7 as Black without too much trouble. 

Then again, I don't mind making the optically ugly ...f6 in many Exchange variations.  Especially if my light squared bishop is forced back to h5 and then to f7 where it becomes a good offensive and defensive piece.

By the way, since you didn't specify, I presume that "Gurevich" was "Mikhail Gurevich"?  Thanks for your comments, I'll look into 10.b4 now as one more weapon for White in a line that I had thought was completely innocuous.
  
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dom
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C01: Bayonet attack in the Exchange
10/24/05 at 07:31:45
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What's your ideas about following variation (I use move order of the game Shirov-Gurevich, Prague 2002):
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd3 Ne7 6.oo Bg4 7.h3 (if you go to next tabla position via Kochyev-Psakhis,Tallin 1987 game, then h3 is given a ?! because of weakness on the kingside) Bh5 8.Re1 (8.Bg5 is the move in Shirov-Gurevich, but it's another story) Nc6 9.c3 Qd7.
It's the tabla position.

In the game Kochyev-Psakhis, White loses one tempo with the a-pawn advance: 10.a4 ooo 11.a5 (11.Nbd2 g5 O'Chee-Chow,Sydney 2002 ; 11. b4 g5 Bagyansky-Barva,Paks 1986 and with the help of my computer 12.Bxg5 leads to an equal and unclear game) g5! (Psakhis played 11..f6).


In the tabla position, if White loses time then Black can  play the bayonet attack with f6 added. Thus what do you think about 10.b4! (at current time I have no better move than 10..f6) ?

I add that Meijers likes the variation without h3-Bh5. ...Meijers-Berg,Stockholm 1999 or Meijers-Masserey,Geneve 2001, and maybe last game is one good example that Black must king castle and doesn't play f6 versus b4 thrust.
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 17:16:09 by dom »  
“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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