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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Pirc Defense dead? (Read 15386 times)
JEH
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #18 - 06/07/06 at 09:01:37
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Dick wrote on 05/12/06 at 05:03:55:
Folks:
Has anyone made an evaluation of "Die Pirc, Die!" on the Roman Site?  I have had good luck with the Classical approach he suggested there.  
Smiley


See my post on Roman's DVD in this thread.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #17 - 06/07/06 at 08:44:02
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The announcement of the death of a defence or a variation is a topic that this site loves to debate. Sure, with computers some openings can be shown to be the wrong side of dodgy, but even then you might wonder if there's still something lying beyond the silicon horizon.

There are many openings not played at the top level that are sound enough. And by top level, I mean the Super GMs. They have to stick to lines that are rock solid sound or mind bogglingly complicated.

The Pirc still gets a run out at the 2600 level as a suprise weapon. A "good for one game"* improvement is all that's needed, and there are plenty.

Also there are many 2500 GMs and IMs playing the Pirc/Modern regularly, and that's a good enough recommendation for any amateur.  

In fact, it might be proved in the future that the Pirc/Modern ambition to eventually tranpose into a Siclilian or 1. ...e5 defence is acutally the correct move order    Shocked ... hmm now if we can just stop White going 4. f4 ...  Wink

JEH



  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Nietzsche
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #16 - 06/07/06 at 01:53:45
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Tumshie:  Welcome to ChessPublishing.com.  Don't worry about your rating and focus on whether or not you're having fun and improving your game.  As for the Pirc, I think few strong players would argue it offers Black as much as the Najdorf, the Spanish, etc. at the highest level.  But at club level...well, just about any decent system that you undertand will probably serve you well.  After all, people make it to GM using the only the Colle or the London System.  Cheesy

For mere mortals like us, the emphasis is on you and your game, and not the opening itself.  So, play the openings you like and try not to blame your opening for your losses (or your wins).  Also, try to look at annotated games from strong players in other systems to improve your overall game and broaden your understanding of openings in general. Don't just focus on Modern or Pirc games against 1.e4  You'll find ideas in lots of unexpected places.

BTW, watch out for transpositions!  Some players are very crafty with their move orders.   I was amazed to discover that a Nimzo can transpose into a Caro-Kann and a Pirc can sometimes become an Alekhine.

So, the Pirc is not well received at the top right now, but it is still an interesting system and will definitely improve your understanding of the game.  I think 'Pirc Alert' and 'Tiger's Modern' will serve as an excellent foundation.  I've won many games against players rated higher than me and easily (surprisingly easily) beat a national master in a line consider to be clearly better for white by theory.  The main reason was that when theory ran out, I understood the position better than he did.   

Anyway, don't give up but also don't forget that there are probably other reasons you went from 1220 to 1570 besides the opening. Wink  Stay objective!  Finally, Tiger Hillarp Persson is a very strong player and he plays the Modern against all comers.  Keep the Faith!
  

"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Tumshie
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #15 - 06/07/06 at 00:53:24
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From a quick scan through the posts I have gathered a few things on this, my first visit here. Firstly I appear to be very much at the bottom of the ratings food-chain as far as this site goes so my input may be of little value to many of you. Secondly, I don't care about the first point so here goes anyway!
I bought the Pirc Alert book about 18 months ago after a recommendation from a clubmate- I had been slowly improving in the 2 years I had been playing but consistently lost to 1.e4 so my rating remained very poor (around 1200 in the Chess Scotland ratings). The book helped little but I liked the look of the Modern Defence section. This season, with the help of 'Tiger's Modern' and Andrew Martin's Hippo book I have managed to go from 1220 to around 1570- at this rate I'll outrank Kasparov by 2010! Wink
The point I am , rather clumsily, trying to make is that an opening will not die just because the world's elite players find a refutation on move 20 or so- very few of us will ever play them anyway and I don't think they are the market the books are aimed at! Most important to me in a chess book of whatever type is that it should be readable and explain the main ideas clearly. I will most probably go back to look at the Pirc again when I have a better understanding of the positions which come from the Modern, so I would be grateful if all you strong players out there could keep it alive for a while longer.
Lastly, the other thing that struck me as I scan through the Pirc's obituaries was the slightly sombre tone. Seriousness I can understand, and indeed strive for, but some of the posters sound like they have stopped enjoying the game. Is that what happens when you become a strong player? If so I think I'll just stay rubbish and have a good time playing the game....
The Pirc/Modern is dead? Sad  Long live the Pirc/Modern! Wink
I think I'll shut up now... Lips Sealed
  
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Dick
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #14 - 05/12/06 at 05:03:55
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Folks:
Has anyone made an evaluation of "Die Pirc, Die!" on the Roman Site?  I have had good luck with the Classical approach he suggested there. 
Smiley
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #13 - 04/03/06 at 18:19:15
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Quote:
Roman gives The classical variation with an early h3. where white strives hard to limit blacks counterplay. If white is loaded with patience I think this defense can be quite annoying for black.

Roman and Alburt will most likely have the classical variation in the repertoire of their coming book.
I bought Romans DVD "Easy way to beat the Pirc and Modern."  Good DVD!!


It's Black that needs patience vs the Classical!

As for Romans DVD, it's a decent quick to get running repetoire, but I'm not sure about his analysis of the positional pawn sacrifice (White has other options though)

In the line 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. h3 0-0 6. Be3 b6 7. e5 Nfd7 8. e6 fe 9. Bc4 Nf6, White appears to have compensation for the pawn with an interesting position for both sides. After Romans suggested 10.d5, he says Black has only one reply, 10. ...e5, however there are a number of alternatives with 10. ...c6 being suggested by Fritz as giving a slight advantage to Black, but you'd have to study deeper to confirm that.

Interesting though is that if you insert 6. ...a6 7. a4 b6 (as suggested in Pirc Alert), then Fritz only assesses c6 as = (because White controls b5). Thus maybe 6. ...b6 is better.

These positions are ripe for homework with both sides well in the game. Yes, even Black  Wink  

I have found one game with Roman's d5, and Blacks pawn formation after move 12 has a certain appeal to me  Cool ...

Perelshteyn,E (2461) - Benjamin,J (2589) [B08]
Foxwoods op Connecticut (5), 19.04.2003

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.a4 Nf6 6.h3 0-0 7.Nf3 b6 8.e5 Nfd7 9.e6 fxe6 10.Bc4 Nf6 11.d5 c6 12.Ng5 h6 13.Nxe6 Bxe6 14.dxe6 d5 15.Be2 Qd6 16.Bxb6 Qxe6 17.0-0 a5 18.Re1 Qf7 19.Bg4 Nxg4 20.Qxg4 e5 21.Bc5 Re8 22.Ba3 Nd7 23.Rad1 Re6 24.b3 Nf6 25.Qf3 Rae8 26.Ne2 Qa7 27.Ng3 h5 28.Qe3 Qc7 29.Bc5 Nd7 30.Ba3 e4 31.Ne2 Ne5 32.Nd4 Rf6 33.Qg3 Kh7 34.Bc1 Rf7 35.Be3 Qd7 36.Ne2 Rf5 37.Nd4 Rf7 38.Ne2 Rf5 39.Nd4 Rf7 ½-½
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Pelle(Guest)
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #12 - 04/02/06 at 20:52:14
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Roman gives The classical variation with an early h3. where white strives hard to limit blacks counterplay. If white is loaded with patience I think this defense can be quite annoying for black.

Roman and Alburt will most likely have the classical variation in the repertoire of their coming book.
I bought Romans DVD "Easy way to beat the Pirc and Modern."  Good DVD!!
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #11 - 11/05/05 at 05:38:58
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[quote author=lnn2
The biggest problem for Black in the Pirc is not any specific line per se, but that White's position is *extremely* easy to play in general, so the onus to study theory is more on Black than White.  Undecided
[/quote]

I agree with this to a point. Black really needs to know not just specific variations, but key ideas and move orders, whereas it often looks like White can just wing it. Hypermodern chess is no easy ride!

But once you do, and I often find White getting to the end of the easy moves and running out of ideas where I still feel I'm on home turf!

JEH
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?H,
Reply #10 - 11/05/05 at 05:24:26
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Quote:
Hello JEH,

Could you please post your line in the Czech variation?

Thanks,

Bela


I found when playing the Czech variation that pretty much everyone trots out 4. f4 against it, unlike the main Pirc. I'd tried the 6. ... Bg4 lines which I think are ok, but I 've given 6. ... Nbd7 a try for some variety. So I was interested to see what Khalifman had to say against it.

I'll now direct you to page 107 and the final diagram in this Chapter. Up to now, I don't think Khalifman has has demomstrated anything scary for Black in this line. He gives 15. ... Ng4 16. h3 +=. OK. But in the Paragraph above he gives "After 15. ... Bb4, White can sacrifice: 16. exf6!" But in this line, rather than 17. ... Be6 or 17. ...gxf6, Black can play 17. ... Bf5! 18. Re5 Bxd3 19. Rxh5 Bxf1=

I'm very impressed with Khalifman's analysis of these offbeat variations, even if he did include one of my games to demonstrate how not to play as Black, but it shows that even ex-World Champions aren't infallable  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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basqueknight
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #9 - 11/04/05 at 22:59:22
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Its funny to hear people talk about the pirc and KI as if they were some how related! The structure starts out the same but unlike hte pirc Black gets a lot easier ativity and doesn not concede as much space most of the most popular lines any way.

If you decide to change the opening and still wish to remain hyper modern I have two suggestions. The first in my current hobby the Owens! I Love it and it constantly threaten to take the place of My Najdorf!

The other is the Hippo! Which i also recomend starting with 1...b6 because it avoids a lot of nasty white lines. Andrew Martin is coming out with a book on it and before that he wrote a few articles on it! Also check out the games from Nona Gaprindashvili. I cant stress enough how much she has put forth with the hippo since playing it from back when she didnt have wrikles! Shes Old but knows the hippo rather well and she is still active as a player!


Peace
Basqueknight
  
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lnn2
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #8 - 11/04/05 at 22:26:52
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i have played the pirc for awhile but found it difficult to remember how to counter the various White tries (all seem to require very different, and frequently tactically-specific maneuvers).

The biggest problem for Black in the Pirc is not any specific line per se, but that White's position is *extremely* easy to play in general, so the onus to study theory is more on Black than White.  Undecided
In this aspect i think it is possible to study less in the Sicilian than the Pirc, and still get a playable position out of the opening.
  
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John Cox
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #7 - 11/04/05 at 21:30:08
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I strongly agree with Paddy's excellent first post. Never give up an opening because 2700 players think it's bad. Unless you're looking to make the jump from 2500 to 2600, it's most unlikely to matter whether what you play suits the elite or not.

By all means give an opening up because you can't find a line you're comfortable with against some White system, because you're bored with it, because you conclude that some other opening would be more interesting or suit your style better, or teach you something new about the game. But never because of received opinion.

One day, computers will tell us that against 1 e4 Black has the choice of the Najdorf or the Petroff, or the Sveshnikov if he doesn't mind defending R and B against R. All others lose. Or whatever it is that they tell us - personally I think most replies to 1 e4 will be shown to draw. But that day is not yet, and it's not worth worrying about.
  
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Paddy
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #6 - 11/04/05 at 16:19:29
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Quote:
What is recommended in "Opening for white according to Anand?" Also, what about Larry Kaufman's suggestion in "Opening advantage in black and white"?


OFWATA 4 gives systems based on f4 for White (the so-called Austrian Attack);

Emms gives 4 Be3;

Collins gives 4 Bg5;

Kaufman gives 4 Be3 against the Pirc but 3 Nf3 and 4 c3 against the Modern.
  
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belaji
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?H,
Reply #5 - 11/04/05 at 15:10:41
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Hello JEH,

Could you please post your line in the Czech variation?

Thanks,

Bela
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Defense dead?
Reply #4 - 11/04/05 at 13:52:28
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I started playing the Pirc about 25 years ago after reading Keene and Levy's Opening Repertoire for the Attacking player. I've dabbled with other stuff, but I'm now back playing it after a 7 year break (not counting 2 years with the Czech variation).

Before taking it up again I hit the books and recent game databases and saw nothing to put me off returning to it. Quite the opposite!

I scored 2/3 in my first tournament after this break and the loss was mainly because of a schoolboy 0-0 error at the wrong time in the Byrne variation error (all the Pirc players will be tutting now  Roll Eyes ). When normal looking moves are bad, it can put you off the opening, but actually I still could have turned it round after that.

My two wins were very satisfying, one where I had to defend well, and one where I got a good attack. All in all, I'm happy to be back with my old friend  Smiley

Thats an interersting point from Paddy about conceding space advantage. I'm currently reading Chinese School of Chess where the authour mentions his SSS principle, Strategy, Structure and Space and theorises that Space may be the most important one. But he then goes onto show some fine wins by Chinese Players with the King's Indian!

He also mentions the importance of analysing your own games. He's spot on with this one. Are you really losing games because of the opening? I find in my case it's rare.

As for gaps in book theory, well I see that as an opportunity to fill them myself. I find it very satisfying to do this. In Khalifman's OfWatA, I found an instant equality against one of the lines he recommends against the Czech variation.

So I wouldn't dispair about the Pirc. If some lines are causing you trouble, then study them. If all lines are, then maybe this isn't the defence for you!


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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