Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map? (Read 3435 times)
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #10 - 11/06/05 at 12:30:56
Post Tools
Semkov, and all,

I like the idea of 5.g4 against the Stonewall set-up that Black tries to erect with 4...f5.  Your gambit play with king-side play seems exactly on point here. 

You say that Black is better off ignoring g4 "when gf5 is unclear."  How exactly does Black ignore it, and can White maintain the tension by delaying gf5? 

I feel (and it is just a feeling at this point) that White must be at least slightly better if g4 can be played with impunity.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Semkov
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 72
Location: Sofia
Joined: 12/27/04
Gender: Male
Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #9 - 11/06/05 at 11:36:48
Post Tools
" 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 e6 4. e3 f5 5. g4!? fxg4 6. Ne5 Nf6 7. Nxg4" When I was twenty I won two games with 7.h3! (7...g3 8.f4; 7...gh3 8.Rh3). In my opinion, Black is better off ignoring g4, when gf5 is unclear.

  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #8 - 11/05/05 at 00:30:11
Post Tools
4...Bd6 is specifically playable because White has played 4.e3.  White needn't have committed to this central structure so early, so Black can take up a more active position than usual.

As John Cox has already pointed out, White's c4-c5 is usually a positional mistake.  Perhaps the only exception (and that is still very debatable) is in the Slav ...a6 line.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4705
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #7 - 11/05/05 at 00:23:38
Post Tools
Quote:
I recently found out that even if White played Nf3 it does not preclude him from playing g4. Volkov-Kobalia (Kazan 05) went 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 e6 4. e3 f5 5. g4!? fxg4 6. Ne5 Nf6 7. Nxg4 Be7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. Rg1...(1-0). Perhaps this is not as strong as 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 4. e3 f5 5. g4 but you can't have everything in move-order matters.


Right; the Volkov-Kobalia thing is what John Cox was referring to, I assume.

I wonder if there is any modern consensus about the best approach for White after 3. Nf3 c6 4. e3 Bd6 intending ...f5.  I seem to recall some old ECO analysis by Taimanov(?) giving 5. Bd3 f5 6. 0-0 Nf6 7. b3 Qe7 8. a4 (insisting on Ba3) as leading to a slight advantage for White.  But I recall that in the same volume/edition, the same approach of leaving the knight on b1 and playing b3 and Ba3 was considered to lead to equality in the regular Stonewall Dutch.  Is e3 and Bd3 really better for White in such positions than g3 and Bg2?  (I would have rather thought that White would want to reserve d3 for a knight.)  Ancient history, perhaps.    
« Last Edit: 11/05/05 at 16:24:49 by kylemeister »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #6 - 11/04/05 at 23:50:54
Post Tools
I recently found out that even if White played Nf3 it does not preclude him from playing g4. Volkov-Kobalia (Kazan 05) went 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 e6 4. e3 f5 5. g4!? fxg4 6. Ne5 Nf6 7. Nxg4 Be7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. Rg1...(1-0). Perhaps this is not as strong as 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 4. e3 f5 5. g4 but you can't have everything in move-order matters.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4705
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #5 - 11/04/05 at 22:47:46
Post Tools
Quote:
In the given move order Nf3 is already in, Kylemeister, but I take your point.

I think, btw, the idea of 4....Bd6 is to play ...f5 next and meanwhile avoid 4...f5 5 g4!?.


Oops!  In my mind White had played Nc3 rather than Nf3 ...  [goes off to work on reading comprehension] 



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Cox
Guest


Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #4 - 11/04/05 at 21:34:37
Post Tools
In the given move order Nf3 is already in, Kylemeister, but I take your point.

I think, btw, the idea of 4....Bd6 is to play ...f5 next and meanwhile avoid 4...f5 5 g4!?.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10592
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #3 - 11/04/05 at 15:45:30
Post Tools
Yes. 5.c5 Bc7 and Black will prepare e6-e5, getting a good game.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4705
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #2 - 11/04/05 at 15:45:09
Post Tools
Quote:
I don't know what the road map means, and I'm sure Crafty can give me a stroke a hole, but still I'm pretty sure 5 c5's a bad move. Generations of practice in the Stonewall have shown that by playing c5 White takes pressure off the Black centre and makes ...e5 a possibility, so much so that ...Nb6 used to be played in the Classical Stonewall (with ...Be7) quite often so as to encourage c5 Nbd7, lsoing two whole tempi to tempt this move.

5 c5 is however the sort of move computers like. But then they mostly play the opening terribly once they're out of their opening books.



That was certainly my initial impression.  I suppose there might be something to be said about the fact that here White still has the option of f4, in order to compel ...f6 if Black wants to play ...e5.  (Alternately, if Black plays ...f5 and White f4, we have a "Counter-Stonewall," as in one of the Karpov-Spassky match games in 1974.)  But perhaps he would need to do that immediately after 5. c5 Bc7, and perhaps he also needs to use that tempo on the queenside in order to arrange to meet ...b6 and ...a5 with b4 and a3. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Cox
Guest


Re: Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
Reply #1 - 11/04/05 at 13:20:48
Post Tools
I don't know what the road map means, and I'm sure Crafty can give me a stroke a hole, but still I'm pretty sure 5 c5's a bad move. Generations of practice in the Stonewall have shown that by playing c5 White takes pressure off the Black centre and makes ...e5 a possibility, so much so that ...Nb6 used to be played in the Classical Stonewall (with ...Be7) quite often so as to encourage c5 Nbd7, lsoing two whole tempi to tempt this move.

5 c5 is however the sort of move computers like. But then they mostly play the opening terribly once they're out of their opening books.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tewald
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 10
Location: Detroit
Joined: 11/04/05
Gender: Male
Why 4...Bd6 in the Road Map?
11/04/05 at 12:12:12
Post Tools
In the road map for d4-d5, one move order is as follows:

1. d4 d5
2. c4 e6
3. Nf3 c6
4. e3 Bd6

I don't understand 4...Bd6. Crafty agrees that it's good, but when I have White answer with 5. c5, Crafty changes his mind. C5 seems like such an obvious answer; while Black has to back off his Bishop, White gets to expand his a queen-side attack, perhaps with 6. b4. It seems that this would really hurt Black, who wants to attack on the queen-side, or so I thought. The road map mentions 5. Bd6, and that's all.

Perhaps White's resistance to 5. c5 has to do with his original plans in the opening, but this seems too good to pass up. I'm assuming I'm creating a weakness for White that I don't see here. Could someone explain the problem with my reasoning, please? Thanks.

Tom Ewald
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo