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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) London Mystery Solved (Read 7699 times)
tafl
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #15 - 11/07/05 at 06:48:03
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@MNb
I could have given games by Bronstein, Kamsky or Miles instead, but thought Spielmann might be the right for you.

Is you impression really that your hero was playing for safety-first in these games? His 11.h4 (in both games!) may imply otherwise.

  

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MNb
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #14 - 11/07/05 at 05:48:10
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"Rudolf Spielman rarely played the London"
In Sitges 1933 Raging Rudolf was already 50. Moreover this is by far not his most sparkling tournament. But if you want to use these two games as a recommendation: he more often played 2.b4 against the Sicilian. So Tafl, are you beginning a thread to rehabilitate this too? Would be nice  Grin.
  

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Viking
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #13 - 11/07/05 at 05:20:20
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Quote:
The two options, obviously, are to win or draw (and not to win or lose).


Monday morning.... Tongue

(To explain myself: I read it like:
@...you should only be playing for two results (and in case you are not, these are neither win nor lose)...
So if both win and lose were excluded, I didnt see what the two results were...

I may not have expressed myself clearly.... But if u didnt understand: Forget it  Wink)
  
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tafl
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #12 - 11/07/05 at 02:33:43
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@Bonsai

The moves 1.d4, 2.Nf3 and 3.Bf4 develop quickly and harmoniously and are played occasionally by most of the world's top players. What makes these moves more harmless than say 1.c4, 2.Nc3 and 3.g3 or 1.e4 2.Nf3 and 3.Bb5?
  

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tafl
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #11 - 11/07/05 at 02:26:53
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@Viking
Hmm...

There must be some semantics here that I don't quite get.

The two options, obviously, are to win or draw (and not to win or lose).
  

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Viking
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #10 - 11/07/05 at 02:18:01
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You may be familiar with the old Soviet schools principle that from a good position you should only be playing for two results (and in case you are not, these are NOT win or lose).

Now I am anxious:
What are the two other possibilities?   Undecided

hmm....draw and ???
I am afraid I missed something here.....
  
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Bonsai
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #9 - 11/07/05 at 02:16:41
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Those comments sound like you've read too many book covers over book's like "The London system for the attacking player" and "Win with the London system"... (<- Oops, I just realised that the new book is actually called that! The title was meant as a joke...) Sorry, couldn't resist that comment, but really as far as I can tell all the opponents that have played it against me so far were really trying to play a sequence of safe moves, get developed and then play chess. And I do quite approve of the "and then play chess" bit of the approach.

Of course in any vaguely decent development scheme one can win short games, but I must say that in the case of the London system I believe it's more a case of the opponents getting overly aggressive to punish a passive set-up (which is not something you can really do against the London, I think - you should just take your equality and then play chess...).
  
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tafl
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #8 - 11/07/05 at 01:52:13
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There are risks and then there are risks...

If we are talking the BDG kind of risk, then it should definitely be avoided in serious games.

You may be familiar with the old Soviet schools principle that from a good position you should only be playing for two results (and in case you are not, these are NOT win or lose).

One should not confuse avoidance of excessive risk with a wish for draws. Most classical mainlines, in particular in the QGD and Ruy Lopez, involve very little risk for White. That doesn't mean White isn't playing for a win.

The London admittedly isn't an opening striving for the maximum theoretical advantage. It is rather on the non-theoretical side. But it nevertheless packs quite a punch and can be played as riskily or as safely you wish to. It was played quite frequently by the late Miles and by Larsen and Bronstein and on occasion by the young Kasparov, Shirov and Judit Polgar. But possibly they all were trying to avoid risks.

Rudolf Spielman rarely played the London, but occasionally he wanted to play it safe:

[Event "Sitges"]
[Site "Sitges"]
[Date "1934.??.??"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Spielmann,Rudolf"]
[Black "Prins,Lodewijk"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D02"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.Nbd2 d5 5.h3 0-0 6.e3 c5 7.c3 b6 8.Bd3 Bb7 9.Ne5 Nfd7 10.Ndf3 Nc6 11.h4 cxd4 12.Nxc6 Bxc6 13.cxd4 Re8 14.Rc1 e5 15.dxe5 Bb7 16.Bg5 Qb8 17.Bb5 Nxe5 18.Bxe8 Qxe8 19.Nxe5 Qxe5 20.0-0 Qxb2 21.Rc7 Rb8 22.Qf3  1-0

And sometimes his opponents tricked him:

[Event "Stockholm m2"]
[Site "Stockholm"]
[Date "1933.??.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Spielmann,Rudolf"]
[Black "Stahlberg,Gideon"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B13"]
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 Bg4 5.Bf4 Nc6 6.c3 e6 7.Qb3 Qd7 8.Nbd2 Nge7 9.a4 Ng6 10.Bg3 Be7 11.h4 Bf6 12.h5 Nge7 13.h6 g5 14.Bb5 Ng6 15.Ne5 Bxe5 16.Bxe5 Ngxe5 17.dxe5 Qc7 18.0-0 Qxe5 19.a5 0-0 20.a6 Rab8 21.axb7 Nd8 22.Ba6 Qf4 23.Ra4 Qf5 24.Qb4 Bh5 25.g4 Qc2 26.Qd4 e5 27.Qxe5 Ne6 28.Rd4 Bg6 29.Rxd5 Qa4 30.Bc4 Rxb7 31.Rd6 Re8 32.b3 Qa3 33.Re1 Kf8 34.Bxe6  1-0
  

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MNb
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #7 - 11/06/05 at 20:57:06
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Once I heard someone explain, that it was impossible to lose as White with the setup d4, Nf3, Bf4 ,e3, c3, h3 etc. He was not really looking for a quick decision.
All the players of the London System I have met, have one thing in common: a desire to avoid risks.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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tafl
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #6 - 11/06/05 at 05:20:15
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In contrast to 1.a3, the London is a rapid-development scheme (like for instance the Italian game), and after d4, Nf3 and Bf4 White is ready to punish inaccuracies quickly. Admittedly it then often slows down somewhat with moves like e3, Bd3 and sometimes even c3 and h3, but by then Black often has castled short with most of White's pieces directed at his kingside.

I doubt many London players chose their repertoire for safety reasons. The prospects for a quick win seems a more likely motivation.
  

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Bonsai
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #5 - 11/06/05 at 05:10:14
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I don't really see what this post is about. The London system is harmless (but I'd never say it's wrong, it just doesn't put very much pressure on black, but it really doesn't get white in trouble either), but against any harmless opening you can lose if you blunder. So what?

Braun,Arik (2465) - Bach,Matthias (2310)
9.Offene Int. Bayerische Meisterschaft Bad Wiessee (5), 02.11.2005
1.a3 d5 2.Sf3 c5 3.e3 g6 4.c4 Sf6 5.cxd5 Sxd5 6.Lb5+ Ld7 7.Db3 Lg7 8.Lc4 Lc6 9.e4 b5 10.Lxd5 1-0
  
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tafl
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #4 - 11/06/05 at 02:30:54
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Emotions and the labels we put on them are notoriously individualistic. I have no doubt you are absolutely fearless in life as well as at the chessboard, but all people are not.

And if you feel comfortable saying "I was crushed after 6 moves, but her opening play was absolutely harmless", you should feel free to do so.

(apologies to Giddins who didn't say that)
  

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lost highway
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #3 - 11/05/05 at 16:23:49
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Are you equating being careful with fear?

- Lost Highway
  
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tafl
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #2 - 11/05/05 at 15:56:28
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Ha ha.  Fear of what?


As dying isn't really a risk in chess, I must admit that losing is the worst that can happen. But quite a lot of chessplayers actually fear that.
  

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lost highway
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Re: London Mystery Solved
Reply #1 - 11/05/05 at 14:52:02
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I wonder how many players disdaining the London as "harmless" or "drawish" in reality try to mask their fear.  Wink


Ha ha.  Fear of what?  BTW, in that game you cited, 4...Bf5 is not black's best move.

- Lost Highway
  
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